Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 02:59:53 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #211 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... (Ray) 2. RE: Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... (michael tomlinson) 3. is Rick the only sane one out there? (Gordon) 4. Re: Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 5. Pain and injury (JR West) 6. Michael "The Leper" Tomlinson (Gordon) 7. Re: testing injuries (Lila Ralston) 8. RE: Erik Brann on Pyung Ahn timing (George Peters) 9. Re: Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane (Ray) 10. RE: RE: Erik Brann on Pyung Ahn timing (Erik Brann) 11. Re: not showing pain (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 12. June 5-9 Athlete Development Camp (Martial Arts Seminars) 13. WTF recognition (The_Dojang) 14. RE: Michael "The Leper" Tomlinson (michael tomlinson) 15. RE: Re: testing injuries (michael tomlinson) 16. TKD Promotion Foundation (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Is Rick the only one out there that teaches sensible injury > management? If there's a possible injury you stop and assess, do the > appropriate action, make sure you inform the instructor, continue if > it's not a problem. I thought that was SOP for a martial arts class. Perhaps we continue to talk about two very different things. Perhaps there is confusing overlap and/or extrapolation going on. IMHO pain and injury are not necessarily the same, nor are they always linked. Something occurs. You stop and access the-best-you-can under the circumstances, but you control your outward expression of pain. Do people always do that in sports? No. But are -we- doing sports or martial arts? Nothing wrong with sports, but I am personally more interested in learning and teacing self-defense and martial arts. As is said, you will react on the street as you train in the dojang. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 18:19:21 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net HOLY MOLLY.....I have leprosy!!! For real though...my classes are a lot of fun and hard work, we respect each other and help everyone...we don't try to kill each other..but we don't cry over hang nails, fur coats, or the incidental slaughter of a few baby seals by the eskimo population either... Michael Tomlinson >From: Erik Kluzek >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out >there?.... >Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:29:22 -0600 > >>>If that student would have continued what kind of >>>control do you think they would have? How well do you think they could >>>defend themselves against an attack when they are double over in pain? >> >>Ahhh... You hit upon the real point. Part of our training should be to >>not show pain. >> >>Been knocked down? Sure. Been hurt? Sure. Broken bones? Sure. >>Been kicked in the nuts and couldn't function? Sure. Shown pain? >>After the fact, yes. During the conflict, never. A real bad idea for >>those that want to survive. > >Ok, so I understand and agree with this concept -- within reason. In my >Aikido classes >nage often has trouble getting me to tap. Sometimes I tap not out of pain >compliance, but >because they have me securely pinned. Every time I test I seem to make a >ride to ER. >Quite often when I go down to Master Kim's seminar -- I go to the ER. > >Dealing with pain given in a lock -- something you do want to train. Let >it go until someone >breaks the joint -- bad idea. Anytime, you have something go into the >possible injury state -- >you assess what's up. Continuing can mean you will have a permanent injury >instead of >a temporary one -- just seems like common sense to me (or is it not so >common). > >Once, I was sparring with one of my seniors. Suddenly he stops turns >around holds his hands >together and stops the fight. I'm wondering what's going on. It turns out >he had his hands open >while I did a kick and the leg caused an "explosive dislocation" of his >finger. While he was turned >around he reset his own dislocated finger. But, then we immediately took >him to the hospital. His attitude >was it was his fault as he didn't hold a good fist, and he was higher >rank. Because, the injury was taken >care of immediately and appropriately -- he has full motion in his hand, >full strength and no problems. >Someone else I know has a finger joint that bends the wrong way -- because >they did NOT take appropriate >care of a dislocated finger from sparring. > >Personally, I dislocated my finger and after Grand-master Kim set it, went >to ER and made sure it was OK. >It's been over 6 months, and it's still not back to 100%, but I do have >full range of motion. But, that was because >I took appropriate care. The lesson I learned from that incident is that >fingers are fragile and easy to hurt and >take tons of time to heal. In class you want to take care of them... > >Do you really want to have people that lack full body range of motion, or >dislocate joints easier, or have so much scar >tissue that they can't do certain motions or lack strength -- all because >they went on during an injury? Hell, going on >during an injury in a dang class or test will make you more vulnerable >against attack -- because your body is trashed. > >Part of a promise we make before every class is "we are united in mutual >friendship". I want my class partners to >continue coming to class, and I want them at 100%. I want them to take >care of injury if they have it -- so they can >come back at 100%. If they come back at 100% -- they can challenge me >during class and I can challenge them. But, >once something shifts into injury mode -- we stop and assess. If it's not >a problem -- by all means continue. If not do >the appropriate action. Even if all it is that you have blood on the floor >-- then you have a biohazard -- you have to stop >to clean it up. OSHA standards tell us that you treat anyones blood as a >biohazard -- you discontinue until you have it cleaned up. And potentially >it is -- there are plenty of blood-borne pathogens that can be lethal or >at least negatively life-changing if you don't take care of them. >Hepatitis -- bad news. Aids -- your dead. > >Is Rick the only one out there that teaches sensible injury management? If >there's a possible injury you stop and assess, do the appropriate action, >make sure you inform the instructor, continue if it's not a problem. I >thought that was SOP for a >martial arts class. > >I have this vision that there are all these do-jangs out there that have >students that look like zombies with parts falling off and things that >don't go the right way -- because you have people continuing training >through an injury. Did you know that the real problem with Leprosy is the >inability to feel pain? As such they trash their bodies and end up with >parts falling off -- all because they continue with no feeling of pain. Is >that the kind of do-jang you want to have filled with lepers and zombies? > >This is just insane.... > >Erik Kluzek >Colorado Blue Wave Martial Arts >http://www.coloradobluewave.org >!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 13:43:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] is Rick the only sane one out there? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Please review GM Timmerman's last two posts. As usual, he beat me to it and spoke eloquently for most of us. We all care for our students and their well being. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 4 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:09:56 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane one out there?.... > > Is Rick the only one out there that teaches sensible injury > > management? If there's a possible injury you stop and assess, do the > > appropriate action, make sure you inform the instructor, continue if > > it's not a problem. I thought that was SOP for a martial arts class. > > Perhaps we continue to talk about two very different things. > Perhaps there is confusing overlap and/or extrapolation going on. > IMHO pain and injury are not necessarily the same, nor are they > always linked. > > Something occurs. You stop and access the-best-you-can under the > circumstances, but you control your outward expression of pain. Do people > always do that in sports? No. But are -we- doing sports or martial > arts? Nothing wrong with sports, but I am personally more interested > in learning and teacing self-defense and martial arts. > > As is said, you will react on the street as you train in the dojang. Not really meant as a response to what you are saying, but just a general statement to the whole issue... How many instructors teach realistic knife defense by actually cutting their students to teach them to take a cut or a stab and still keep fighting? Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "JR West" To: Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:32:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pain and injury Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net During my first year of college basketball, I rolled my left ankle over with about 10 minutes left in the first half. We took a timeout at the end of injury official's time out, during which my shoe was removed, I was injected with cortisone and benzicaine, was re-taped, and rentered the game and played about 90% of the remaining 30 minutes and felt GREAT..............That is until the feeling came back about halfway back to school. I swear that if the trainer was riding in the same bus with me, I would have killed him. That was in 1962, and I still, albeit occasionally, land on that ankle just wrong and all of a sudden it is'62 again. Years later I became the head coach at Millsaps college in Jackson, and when I left, I had NEVER had a losing season as a head coach, and I NEVER allowed a player to play "injured"....... "hurt" is something else, For example, I once fell asleep under a sunlamp (I know, stupid) and played Syracuse at their place with a HORRIBLE sunburn on my shoulders and back, and it didn't take long for the guys in orange and blue to notice my discomfort....Man was I hurting, but I was not injured, and I have never gotten near a sunlamp or tanning bed since. When you are working with kids, even college kids, someone has to be the voice of reason, but as adults, were allowed to be stupid every now and again and I can understand where Mike is coming from.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com PS: I hear the voices too, but they're just giving me directions to the closest buffet...... --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:33:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Michael "The Leper" Tomlinson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Tomlinson writes: Man you're a hoot! I bet you students never have a dull moment! Of course you have great students and you are a great teacher. -But what fun is there in just giving bows and respects all day long. Bows and respects, :) Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lila Ralston" To: Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:33:57 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: testing injuries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I respect both the viewpoint of those who wish to regard their own rank tests as personal challenges to overcome fear, pain, etc. and the viewpoint of those who desire to protect their students (and themselves) from disabling injury, lawsuits, etc. I have an experience that falls somewhere in the middle. When my teenaged daughter and I were both testing for 1st dan, she swept me and tore the anterior cruciate ligament in my left knee. I went down and stayed down for 3 reasons: pain, instability of the joint, and knowledge of exactly what had just happened to my knee (I'd torn the right ACL several years previous in a non-martial-arts situation). I did get back up and try to do kyukpa while standing on one foot. I failed. (Try it some time--interesting exercise.) My instructor was kind enough to let me repeat just the breaking part of the test later when I was able to put weight on both legs (thank you, Mr. Hughes). Being a middle-aged female, I don't really worry about who thinks I'm tough (I've had 3 babies), but I could not bear to just give up. On the other hand, I am really glad I didn't try to keep fighting and tear the rest of my knee ligaments, as that might have ended my participation in TKD permanently (and my daughter felt bad enough just putting me through 8 weeks of physical therapy!). --Lila Ralston, Live Oak TKD --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 16:50:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Erik Brann on Pyung Ahn timing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, When doing these forms without a count, the pace is set by the most senior student.The seniors' breathing should be loud enough to be heard around the dojang. I normally use a slow 1001,1002 type count on basic techniques in these forms. The federation I belong to only does all five forms together without a count, this is a first gup requirement. Hope this helps. Respectfully, George Tang Soo! --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Not showing pain / is Rick the only sane To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 13:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > How many instructors teach realistic knife defense by actually cutting their > students to teach them to take a cut or a stab and still keep fighting? Hummm.... I suspect not very many. However students learning knife offense/defense will likely get cut at some point in their training, assuming they train long enough. What a good knife instructor will do is inform the student that in a bladed encounter they WILL get cut. Expect that to occur, expect to see your own blood, and start setting your mind right now to survive that interpersonal encounter. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Erik Brann" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Erik Brann on Pyung Ahn timing Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 17:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Excellent! Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: George Peters [mailto:kyosag@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:50 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Erik Brann on Pyung Ahn timing Good Sir, When doing these forms without a count, the pace is set by the most senior student.The seniors' breathing should be loud enough to be heard around the dojang. I normally use a slow 1001,1002 type count on basic techniques in these forms. The federation I belong to only does all five forms together without a count, this is a first gup requirement. Hope this helps. Respectfully, George Tang Soo! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 18:37:18 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: not showing pain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Been knocked down? Sure. Been hurt? Sure. Broken bones? Sure. Been kicked in the nuts and couldn't function? Sure. Shown pain? After the fact, yes. During the conflict, never. A real bad idea for those that want to survive. ------------------------------------- complete agreement here. awhile back one of my students was sparring against two attackers. it was all out. she was letting herself show discouragement and pain. she wanted to give up. for safety, i yelled out to her if she was injured, tap out, if shes just hurt, dont give up! on the street, she knows not to give up no matter what. its your life. commit to it. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:17:31 -0700 From: "Martial Arts Seminars" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] June 5-9 Athlete Development Camp Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: USAT Administration Subject: 10 Spots Open in June Camp for All Ages 14 & up The June 5-9 Athlete Development Camp has 10 additional spots open to adult and youth competitors. The purpose of the Athlete Development Camp is to develop and reinforce the athlete pipeline. The cost of the camp is $595, but USA Taekwondo school owners will receive a discounted price of $495. The final deadline for camp registrations is May 22, 2006. All camp-goers will reside at the Olympic Training Center and must be at least 14 years old. Camp Schedule Monday, June 5 Athlete Arrival. 5pm Athlete Meeting 6pm-8:30pm Training June 6, 7 and 8 8am Breakfast 9am-11:30am Training 12pm-1pm Lunch 2pm-4:30pm Training 5:30pm-6:30pm Dinner 7:30pm-9:30pm Evening Activity June 9 8am Breakfast 9am-12pm Evaluations 12pm Athletes Depart To register for the Athlete Development Camp, June 5-9, please go to: http://www.highleveltraining.com/ --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:23:17 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF recognition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF recognition of Culture Maker Corp. (Mooto) on hand protector Ref. No. 2006/113 March 7, 2005 To: Presidents, Member National Associations & Regional Unions Members, Executive Council Chairmen, WTF Technical, Games & Referee Committee Re: WTF recognition of Culture Maker Corp. (Mooto) on hand protector Dear Sir/Madam, This is to notify you that WTF signed a Recognition Agreement on hand protector with Culture Maker Corp. (Mooto) on February 27th, 2006. Here are the details: - Recognized product: hand protector - Term of contract: until February 26th, 2007 (1 year) - Company details: Culture Maker Corp. (Mooto) President: Mr. Lee, Seung Hwan Contact Person: Mr. Lee, Jin Jae General Manager, Marketing Dept. 1127-8 DaewonPlaza 2nd Fl. Jung-Dong, Wonmi-Gu, Bucheon, Kyoungki Do, Korea 420-020 Tel: 82 32 321 0225Fax: 82 32 321 0449 E-mail: ishop@mooto.com, acoree@mooto.com Website: http://www.mooto.com Sincerely yours, Dong-Hoo Moon Secretary General --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Michael "The Leper" Tomlinson Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:31:08 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gordon, Thanks for the good words....my motto in Hapkido and at my high school job is "if I'm bored you must REALLY be bored"....so I try to keep it light but at the same time have everyone work their butts off...and then I hear the voices in J.R.'s head talking about the buffet!! Michael Tomlinson >From: "Gordon" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Michael "The Leper" Tomlinson >Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:33:20 -0500 > >Michael Tomlinson writes: > >of >fun and hard work, we respect each other and help everyone...we don't try >to >kill each other..but we don't cry over hang nails, fur coats, or the >incidental slaughter of a few baby seals by the eskimo population >either...> > >Man you're a hoot! I bet you students never have a dull moment! Of course >you have great students and you are a great teacher. -But what fun is >there >in just giving bows and respects all day long. Bows and respects, :) > >Gordon Okerstrom >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: testing injuries Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:33:26 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lila, That story IMHO exemplifies what good martial arts is all about...very well done...my hat is off to you.. Michael Tomlinson >From: "Lila Ralston" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: testing injuries >Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:33:57 -0400 > >I respect both the viewpoint of those who wish to regard their own rank >tests as personal challenges to overcome fear, pain, etc. and the viewpoint >of those who desire to protect their students (and themselves) from >disabling injury, lawsuits, etc. > >I have an experience that falls somewhere in the middle. When my teenaged >daughter and I were both testing for 1st dan, she swept me and tore the >anterior cruciate ligament in my left knee. I went down and stayed down for >3 reasons: pain, instability of the joint, and knowledge of exactly what >had just happened to my knee (I'd torn the right ACL several years previous >in a non-martial-arts situation). > >I did get back up and try to do kyukpa while standing on one foot. I >failed. (Try it some time--interesting exercise.) My instructor was kind >enough to let me repeat just the breaking part of the test later when I was >able to put weight on both legs (thank you, Mr. Hughes). > >Being a middle-aged female, I don't really worry about who thinks I'm tough >(I've had 3 babies), but I could not bear to just give up. On the other >hand, I am really glad I didn't try to keep fighting and tear the rest of >my knee ligaments, as that might have ended my participation in TKD >permanently (and my daughter felt bad enough just putting me through 8 >weeks of physical therapy!). --Lila Ralston, Live Oak TKD >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 20:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Promotion Foundation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo Promotion Foundation http://www.tpf.in/Eng/index.asp --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest