Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:43:23 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #222 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction (steven riggs) 2. RE: Today (Thomas Gordon) 3. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction (Thomas Gordon) 4. Re: Today (imakikr) 5. re: stations question (Wes Heaps) 6. RE: Quick question (michael tomlinson) 7. RE: Today (Joseph Cheavens) 8. Knowing is half the battle (rwood) 9. Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction (Jon Payne) 10. Condolences (Rudy Timmerman) 11. Re: re: stations question (Matt Munson) 12. RE: Condolences (michael tomlinson) 13. Re: On the passing of Michael's father... (Erik Kluzek) 14. TODAY (Gordon) 15. Re: Today (aburrese@aol.com) 16. RE: Pain Distraction (J R Hilland) 17. Re: Pain Distraction (aburrese@aol.com) 18. RE: Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction (Joseph Cheavens) 19. kind words (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:46:36 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a former law enforcement officer you would be walking a dangerous line of being regarded as the aggressor and charged with assault with intent to do serious bodily injury. The laws of self-defense in most states allow you to use that force sufficient to allow you to escape and or bring the conflict to an end enabling you to be uninjured. Once the threat is removed you can't keep hammering on the person regardless of what they did to you. The court is to punish not us. A rough approximation might be if you get shoved you could use a wrist lock to restrain or a leg sweep to take them down but not an elbow crushing his jaw line. If he is a much larger and stronger opponent and has verbally threatened to kill you and rushes you swinging at you violently then the law would allow for a much more aggressive response which for all practical purposes would end in the attacker being on the ground injured to one degree or another. Lethal force is allowed only when you are attacked with lethal force. If you believe you have a legitimate fear for your life then if you can't avoid it, lethal force can be used in most states. You will still most likely face civil repercussions but at least you are alive. Go hire a lawyer and hope for the best. Steven Jye nigma wrote: ok so we've been talking about joint locks lately, but here's a side question....supposed you get in a fight, use some type of distraction technique like an eye jab, and then you do a joint lock and finish the attacker with another technique like a throw in which the attacker is seriously injured....would you be in trouble with the law for going over board? Jye Foxfiremd@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/15/2006 11:40:02 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Your opponent will not stand there and allow you to change positions and techniques without smashing your face in. If you will deliver a pain distraction, eye jab, palm strike, front kick to groin etc.. I understand. So, now you have kicked his cojones up between his eyes as a distraction. He is now standing on tippy-toes, knees locked together, bent over, making high pitched mewing sounds, and giving up the M$Ms from third grade lunch; and you want to hold his hand and play with it? You probably could just walk away. He'll never catch you with those little bitty steps he can take. Mike _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2˘/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Today Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 00:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's always tough to find the right words when someone is going through a time of bereavement. My heartfelt condolences and prayers for you and your family. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 00:48:44 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I tell our students that offense begins where defense ends. You can't chase your attacker two blocks and then claim self defense. :) Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "imakikr" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Today Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:21:05 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry for your loss, My father passed away not quite 2 years ago, WWll Vet and a golden glove boxer. Never easy to say goodbye. Hope you are doing alright. Sincerely, Sean Kay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dante James" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Today > Mr. Tomlinson, > My wishes of peace and smiles with the memories of your father. Mine died > 44 years ago, when I was 3, enjoy the memories and appreciate the blessing > of togetherness. > > > Dante J. James, Esq. > > www.kimartialarts.com > Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael tomlinson" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 9:13 PM > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Today > > >> My father passed away today..inoperable cancer and sorosis..Korean war >> veteran that was proud of his country and his cadilac....my hat is off to >> my father today...he was a great guy. >> >> Michael Tomlinson >> _______________________________________________ >> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 00:31:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Heaps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] re: stations question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What exactly are "burpees"? never heard of them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Quick question Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:32:46 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net exactly...that is being pragmatic...last year I had a very nice man who came to work out with me in a wheel chair,,he had been paralyzed from the waist down in a motorcycle accident years ago...after a month of teaching him blocks, stikes, reaction drills, and meditation, etc...I had to tell him that he could work out with us as long as he wanted but in reality my suggestion to him was to buy a good handgun and have an area on his wheelchair made to hold it so he could access it as quick as possible and then take some serious lessons from a good NRA instructor and practice with that...everything has a purpose... Michael Tomlinson >From: Jye nigma >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: MartialArtsTalk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [The_Dojang] Quick question >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:59:16 -0700 (PDT) > >Has anyone ever heard of a shotokan teacher named Mascerlin "Bat" Hines? I >met him today at his school and stopped to chit chat a little. Seems like a >nice guy. He said he's been teaching for 48 years. He cracked me up because >he was telling me about their curriculum, and said that his students learn >how to defend againt knife and gun attacks. But what was funny was he said, >if you have someone who wants to kill you bad enough and they have a gun, >then you don't need martial arts, you need to go out and get you a >pistol....LMAO. > > jye > > > >--------------------------------- >Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just >2˘/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Today Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:55:40 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My condolences to you and your family. Sincerely, Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "michael tomlinson" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:  RE: [The_Dojang] Today Date:  Tue, 16 May 2006 03:13:50 +0000 >My father passed away today..inoperable cancer and sorosis..Korean >war veteran that was proud of his country and his cadilac....my hat >is off to my father today...he was a great guy. >                                                                     >                       Michael Tomlinson >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:08:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Knowing is half the battle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Check with your city, county, and state laws. Most read that if you are in fear for your life and have no escape or the attacker is blocking your escape you may use whatever means a “prudent” person would take to extract yourself from danger. The keys here are threat to life or limb. This can also be applied toward rendering aid to others in similar jeopardy. Again read your local laws. DO NOT go with the “I heard this from a guy, how knows this guy, who works for a guy.” IHS, Rob He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Jon Payne" To: "The_Dojang" Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:33:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>ok so we've been talking about joint locks lately, but here's a side >>question....supposed you get in a fight, use some type of distraction >>technique like an eye jab, and then you do a joint lock and finish the >>attacker with another technique like a throw in which the attacker is >>seriously injured....would you be in trouble with the law for going over >>board? Jye>> Who's going to write the Witness Statement reporting you used those techniques? Would you be like a few of the people I talk to and try to impress me with your martial art knowledge by describing your defense techniques blow by blow? Or would you say, "Hey the guy came at me, assaulted me etc., I threw him down, he quit and I called ya'll". Once the threat has been stopped you have to stop hitting them. That is usually a good time to retreat and call the police. Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:00:41 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Condolences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Michael: Sorry to hear about your dad. Please accept my most sincere condolences. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Munson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: stations question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/rossboxing2.htm Wes Heaps wrote: What exactly are "burpees"? never heard of them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Munson's Martial Arts Academy An American Combat Tae Kwon Do School -proud member of: The American Combat Arts Federation --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Condolences Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:43:07 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy, thank you and I hope to see you before too long for some training...Mike >From: Rudy Timmerman >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Condolences >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:00:41 -0400 > >Hello Michael: >Sorry to hear about your dad. Please accept my most sincere condolences. >Rudy >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Erik Kluzek Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:20:25 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: On the passing of Michael's father... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My father passed away today..inoperable cancer and sorosis..Korean war > veteran that was proud of his country and his cadilac....my hat is > off to my > father today...he was a great guy. > > Michael Tomlinson Michael, sorry to hear to hear that man. Sounds like your dad was a good man. And he obviously played a big part in shaping you into the man you are today. That's what all good fathers do... My Father was a WW II vet and died 7 years ago. Hat's off to all the Fathers that have passed away. And especially to all those Fathers who have served their country in the military. May we remember the lessons they taught us, and may we live to fill the shoes of the men they were.... Erik Kluzek Colorado Blue Wave Martial Arts http://www.coloradobluewave.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:53:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TODAY Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Tomlinson, it sounds like your dad had a full life and a great son to be proud of. You and yours are in our prayers. Respects and bows, Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:10:06 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Today Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike, I'm sorry to hear about your father. Thoughts are with you and your family. It's because of men like him who served that we have so much today. Especially me, who has lived in Korea and married a Korean woman. Without your Dad and those he served with, that would never had happened. My hat is off to him today too. All the best, Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:25:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Pain Distraction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I found the opposite true. The witness' told the police that I never threw a punch. I just defended myself and it was the attackers fault that they were now in need of a cast. But an 'eye jab' is hardly a balance break. Not something I would do. I think the term 'distraction' is being confused with what in hapkido, is called a balance break. <<>> --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:26:26 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>ok so we've been talking about joint locks lately, but here's a side question....supposed you get in a fight, use some type of distraction technique like an eye jab, and then you do a joint lock and finish the attacker with another technique like a throw in which the attacker is seriously injured....would you be in trouble with the law for going over board? Jye<<< Jye, There is no simple answer, as with self-defense and the law, the only answer is "it depends." Whenever you hurt another person, there is the possibility you will end up in a court room. "Self-defense" or justified use of force is an affirmative defense where you admit you hurt someone, or even killed someone in some situations, but you did so to protect yourself. I'm sort of short on time this morning to go into everything, but I will share an incident that happened when I was working at the City Attorney Office. I prosecuted a guy for assault. The incident involved two guys fighting outside a bar one night. During the fight, one guy tripped over the curb and went down with a broken ankle. The other guy then kicked him a few times. The cops arrived and saw those last couple of kicks. The guy then told the cop, "I had to get my licks in." The guy who did the kicking plead self-defense, saying the guy with the broken ankle started it. As the prosecutor, I did not focus on who started the fight. My arguement was that at the time the three kicks were thrown at the guy while he was down on the ground, he was no longer a threat, so those three kicks were not self-defense. That is what I focused on, and he was found guilty because of those kicks, and because when he was throwing those kicks it was no longer self-defense. Also remember, even if you get off of criminal charges based on self-defense, you may also find yourself in a civil lawsuit over the same thing, and the burden is not as hard to prove. Remember O.J.? He was found not guilty in the criminal court, but had to pay a large sum of money after the civil trial. If the attacker or attacker's family can convince a jury that you went overboard, you may be paying them a lot of money. Obviously, first and foremost you must survive and go home to your family, and I don't want people worried about going to court when they should be protecting themselves, but the reality is you may end up there. This is why awareness and avoidance are so important. Personally, my survival plan also includes staying out of jail and keeping my house and money for my family. If you do ever have to defend yourself, don't make things worse by stupid statements like the guy above told the cop, "I had to get my licks in." And don't go around saying how you'll "kill" the guy at the bar who was acting up. Let people hear you say you don't want trouble. You don't want to fight. Learn to difuse situations without violence. Be aware and avoid being a victim. And if you can't do that, attack back and do what you must to go home safely. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ah, but it Texas you can chase them if they've stolen your property and using force is the only means available to recover it. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From:  "Thomas Gordon" Reply-To:  the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To:   Subject:  RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Pain Distraction Date:  Tue, 16 May 2006 00:48:44 -0500 >I tell our students that offense begins where defense ends. > >You can't chase your attacker two blocks and then claim self defense. >:) > >Thomas Gordon >Florida >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 19 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:22:25 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] kind words Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I send a thank you to everyone emailing me today with their condolences for my dad...I appreciate it and it made the day a little easier....Hapki.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest