Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 19:37:51 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #246 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Women In UFC (lisa uphold) 2. Re: Response to fight club (Jesse Segovia) 3. Student moving to Ft. Bragg (Michael Atamian) 4. RE: Scottish Drs. and knives (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 5. RE: Men vs. women (Bert Edens) 6. Re: RE: Men vs. women (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 7. RE: Women In UFC (Stovall, Craig) 8. WTF Personnel Reshuffles (The_Dojang) 9. Han Woo-Ri (The_Dojang) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "lisa uphold" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Women In UFC Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:52:16 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well your first comment did come across as "women - substandard", but you corrected that issue. I, as well as other women do appreciate that. I agree that there should be more "sports, activities, etc. that test a womens ability to the fullest, and if you think about it raising children - (sport) - running after them, or taking care of the household and the husband could be considered a "sport" that definatly test a womens ability to the fullest. Have a wonderful day, Lisa >From: joconnor@cybermesa.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Women In UFC >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:54:59 -0600 > >All, > >I hope that did not come across that I think women are substandard athletes >or second-class performers to men. My only point was that men and women >are >physiologically different and taht difference is going to become noticeable >when you are pushing the human body to it's ultimate acheivable level; >because 'ultimate acheivable'' is going to mean different things. As an >analogy, I hope, in the way that an IRL car is different than a top-fuel >drag >racer. Put an IRL car on a drag strip...not as exciting, because the IRL >has >design limitations that keep it from performing in that way as well as a >dragster. Put the dragster in the Indy 500...and the same result. So when >you want to see the best that can be pushed, from a viewing perspective, >you >want to see the best that can be done. And in some sports which women are >now competing at, sports that have been traditional men's sports, it's not >as >exciting to watch because the women are pushing there bodies to excel in >ways >that men have a design edge in. And I think that it's great that they are >doing it for their own sake and for the sake of their desire to compete and >excel, but it's just not as interesting to watch. > >And as a man who loves the womanly difference and uniqueness of my wife and >who has two daughters who I would like to see excel in their own lives, I >would love to see more sports that are tailored toward female physioloogy >such that the best women would always be better then the best men at it, >simply to take the female body and push *it* to it's utlimate limits as we >have been doing with men's bodies for so long > >I think, like gymnastics and skating, as I mentioned, Poomse would be an >interesting area to explore how that could be done... > >Take care, >Jay > >---------- Original Message ----------- >From: joconnor@cybermesa.com >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Sent: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:16:00 -0600 >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Women In UFC > > > > Well, perhaps someone can tell me. Why is the women version of sports > > > > > > (Rugby, Football, Taekwondo, boxing etc.) always less exciting then >the > > > men's? > > > > I've thought about that before and my thought is that it's the same > > reason that Majors baseball is more exciting than AAA or AA level > > baseball usually. When you want to see people performing at their > > best, you want to see the best performing. A lot of times when > > women play sports that are about physical speed and power, they > > don't have as much speed and power as the men would, so it's less > > exciting to watch, if you want to see the ultimate perfomaners and >performance. > > > > As a contrast, I think gymnastics and ice-skating are *excellent* > > examples of how to have a sport that involves both men and women but > > does them slightly differently in a way that plays to the strengths > > of both sides. Men's gymnastsics and women's gymnastics...they are > > both doing gymnastaics but with a different set of events; whereas > > the men are doing the rings with power and control, the women are > > doing the balance beam, which still requires a lot strengeht but > > also a lot of balance, finesse, and grace. The best male gymnast > > could never be as good as even an average female gymnast on the beam > > or the uneven bars, and the best female gymnast could never be as > > good as the the avaerage male gymnast on the rings or parallel bars. > > So when you see a woman doing the beam or the uneven bars, you are > > not seeing a woman doing a scaled down or substandard version of a > > sport designed for men, you are seeing the *best* the a human body > > can do on that event, which is a lot more exciting. Pairs skating > > is great because you take the best a woman can do and the best a man > > can do and putting them together in a complimentary way to get the > > best of both, and in a way that could not be reversed. > > > > By contrast, when women compete in sports that were designed to push > > the male body to the limit, it looks substandard and is thus less > > exciting because you are pushing the female body to do things that a > > male body is better at, naturally, and maybe a given women will beat > > a given man but if you are looking for the ultimate competition and > > the highest level the human body can achieve, some things a man is > > just going to be better at. And some things a woman is going to be > > better at, as gymnastics and figure skating show. As was once said > > "Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but backwards and in > > high heels" > > > > Take care, > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >------- End of Original Message ------- >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:06:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Response to fight club Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Darren, thanks so very much for your service, for all the sacrifices you make on my behalf and for my family and for my country. Jesse poesel darren wrote: >Why does this forum waste its time commenting on >something that does not even merit discussion on a >page for martial arts. If you want to fight, join the >Marines! If not, shut up you wanna be! This is my >second combat tour in Iraq, not to mention tours in >Afghanistan, the Balkans and the first Gulf War. >Semper Fi, >Darren C. Poesel >LtCol USMC - (5th Dan) >Baghdad, Iraq --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Atamian" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:09:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Student moving to Ft. Bragg Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Okerstrom: I am a resident of North Carolina, about 35 miles from Fort Bragg and am a former U.S. Army Paratrooper having served with The Combat Engineers in post truce Korea. I am told that one of the finest Hapkido instructors in this area is right there at Ft. Bragg and I would be willing to assist you in a search for a school for this young man. I have heard of a school sanctioned by Royce Gracie but am not sure exactly where in relationship to Ft. Bragg it is.Please contact me direct and we can together help him to settle in. Also, I think the town you mentioned is Hope Mills. regards, Doju Atamian maakaa@earthlink.net Support our Armed Forces - The World's Best! --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Scottish Drs. and knives Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:17:55 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a way you have made my point. However would you be happier if everyone carried a knife? -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 31 May 2006 20:30 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Scottish Drs. and knives Hi Peter, >Dear Joe, your right to bare arms. Has that made the USA a >safer place to live? I am just back from the UK and I noticed a number of stabbing making the news in the UK. Do the restrictive laws on knives, guns, and the like make you more secure in your person and possessions? "Scotland has been named the most violent country in the developed world by a United Nations report. The study found that, excluding murder, Scots were almost three times as likely to be assaulted as Americans. Victims of crime in 21 countries were interviewed by the UN, but senior Scots police officers criticised the study. The survey concluded that 2,000 Scots were attacked every week. That figure is 10 times the number recorded in official police figures......." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm With some research on the web I am confident you can find statistics that will show that in states (in the US) that individuals have the right to carry canceled weapons (hand guns) there will be a lower rate of crime than in states with more restrictive laws. I have a permit to carry a canceled handgun, and yes I do feel I am safer with the firearm than without. Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bert Edens" To: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:02:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Men vs. women Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, sir... I agree with you for the most part, but wanted to add a point... I dearly love watching the Arkansas Lady Razorback basketball team... Now don't get me wrong, the men are more athletic and can fly higher, etc. But, especially in basketball, that is one of the flaws I see... Often it's simply who is more athletic, not who has the best basketball skills... The Lady'Backs can't touch the men when it comes to high-flying dunking, etc., but they know and stress fundamentals... Something as simple as a strong man-to-man defense, free throws and passing cannot be overrated. I have a lot of respect for that... Back to the martial arts arena, I sparred once at a tournament (when I was 2nd gup) against a 2nd gup who was lightning fast with his lead jab. He could get right on you and score quickly. After watching him spar and defeat a couple of people, I fought him as a typically fight anyway: defensively and as a counter-fighter. I could move more quickly laterally to score with backfists and ridgehands to the head and body, and was able to barely beat him. His sole skill was straight-ahead lightning-fast movement... Oh and his forms were horrible too... :) As a 2nd dan, I would not have promoted him to 2nd gup, but since his instructor outranked (and still does) me, I am sure he saw more than what I did... The point being, often fundamentals are so very important that I love to see those who can perform them very well... Most of the female martial artists absolutely kick my tail in forms... No contest, not even gonna make an argument... Their technique is far superior... Oh and my nine year-old son does martial arts (taekwond-do), XMA and figure skating... And yes, there's a difference. Most females can spin better where most men can jump better... Or if you're Shawn Sawyer, you do a backflip on the ice (!!!)... :) **bows** - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas -----Original Message----- By contrast, when women compete in sports that were designed to push the male body to the limit, it looks substandard and is thus less exciting because you are pushing the female body to do things that a male body is better at, naturally, and maybe a given women will beat a given man but if you are looking for the ultimate competition and the highest level the human body can achieve, some things a man is just going to be better at. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Men vs. women Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:42:18 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > love watching the Arkansas Lady Razorback basketball team... Now > don't get me wrong, the men are more athletic and can fly higher, > etc. But, especially in basketball, that is one of the flaws I > see... Often it's simply who is more athletic, not who has the best > basketball skills... The Lady'Backs can't touch the men when it > comes to high-flying dunking, etc., but they know and stress > fundamentals... Something as simple as a strong man-to-man defense, > free throws and passing cannot be overrated. I have a lot of > respect for that... And I agree with that. There are some who enjoy the focus on skills and fundamentals and can watch an event and appreciate it for what it is and will enjoy that and that's a good thing. Since the original qwuestion was 'why are [women's sports] less exciting', the answer is 'because they are' if you will :) A student of the game will observe and appreciate the less 'exciting' aspects of the game, but for most people watching it, it *will* be less exciting. There is 'better' in the sense of 'stronger fundamentals' and better in a sense of 'more physical' (I hesitate to use the term 'athletic' because I think the women are every bit as athletic as the men, even if the can't jump as high, for example). But...well...a 400' home run in a park with a 390' centerfield fence *is* more exciting than a 360' homerun over a 350' foul line and that's where I think you see it is that in many of the feats by which the excitment of a sport is measured, the women can't reach the same levels of those feats, which I think is unfortuante in a lot of ways. Both that we perceive excitment that way but also that women are expected to compete in sports that play more to men's strengths and then are looked down upon because they can't do it as 'exciting'. The reason that women doing men's sports is not as exciting is simply because they were designed *by* men and *for* men and the women are un an uneven playing field in that level of arena. Which again is why I like gymnastics when thinking about this. The women's events are designed *for* women, and they excel at them and men just couldn't compete at them even if they tried. Even if the events they share, like floor excersize, are judge according to different criteria. The women aren't supposed to perform like men, they are supposed to perform like women, and quite honestly the men could not compete equally in those areas either. Ask the best male athletes to do a woman's floor routine...they couldn't do it, definately couldn't do it up to the woman's level, and would probably injure themselves trying. The woman's floor exercise is designed and judge top bring up the maximum athleticism ina woman's body in ways that a man just can't equal. We need more women's sports like that, I believe. > love to see those who can perform them very well... Most of the > female martial artists absolutely kick my tail in forms... No > contest, not even gonna make an argument... Their technique is far superior... The comes close to what I was saying before. The best men I see performing forms do them *differently* then the best women I've seen. Not better or worse, but they just bring different things to both the interpretation and execution of them, which I think would be a fascinating way in martial arts to look at how both can excel, and yet come up with different ways for excelling optimized for themself and not as a comparison with each other. > Oh and my nine year-old son does martial arts (taekwond-do), XMA > and figure skating... And yes, there's a difference. Most females > can spin better where most men can jump better... Or if you're Shawn > Sawyer, you do a backflip on the ice (!!!)... :) That;s probably a matter of balance/control versus strength/power and I think that as a generalization it's a valid point. To see that generalization and take it as something to explore the implications of I think could be very interesting. I don't know how it would be done in MA sparring but it would be I think interesting to explore ways to allow women to compete in ways that men would not be as good at, just to reach a point where having a "men's division" and a "women's division" wasn't meant as a concession that women weren't good enough to compete with men but rather to equalize it Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:42:29 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Women In UFC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> IMHO, there's honor in it because it's a mutual combat. This is not assault and battery on a defenseless opponent. Two men enter the cage, they both understand the rules, and it's assumed they prepare themselves for the task at hand. I understand that hitting a downed opponent still rubs some people the wrong way. But, this is an artificial standard. When I was growing up, kicking someone in a fight was considered "dirty". Is it? Are all these people who practice TKD practicing "dirty fighting"? No, because it's an accepted thing now that Asian martial arts have been on TV for the last three decades. <<>> Speed, power, and aggression. Men have more of it than women (on average and especially at the elite levels). You could go on-and-on about skeletal differences that drive favorable leverages, muscle mass advantages, anabolic properties of higher testosterone levels, bone density, larger tendons and overall joint structure, mental drive and aggression driven by different hormone profiles, the effects of gender roles and societal expectations on training and in-game performance, etc. But...this stuff is pretty obvious, right? Not better or worse...just different. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:11 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF Personnel Reshuffles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF Conducts Personnel Reshuffles to Strengthen Marketing Activities 01 Jun 2006 The World Taekwondo Federation conducted a personnel reshuffle on June 1, 2006, in an effort to activate its marketing activities. To strengthen its marketing programs, WTF brought in two marketing experts: Mr. Sean Kim, an international lawyer, and Mr. Eil-chul Kim. Mr. Sean Kim was appointed to serve as deputy secretary general in charge of overall affairs related to marketing and public relations, while Mr. Eil-chul Kim will work as special assistant to the WTF President for marketing affairs. Under the personnel change, Mr. Manseek Choe was appointed as deputy secretary general in charge of overall affairs related to the General Affairs Division and the Planning and Finance Division. Mr. Yoon-taek Lim was named to serve as deputy secretary general in charge of the Sport Division and the Refereeing Division. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:22:34 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Han Woo-Ri Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Slimmed-down Han Woo-Ri coming back to town Federal Way, WA May 31 2006 By PHILIP PALERMO The Mirror The Han Woo-Ri festival is coming back to Federal Way and organizers are planning to do more with a smaller budget. The three-day event will feature several exhibitions of Korean culture, from Tae Kwon Do demonstrations to music and dance performances. "(There's) stuff going on all over," Community Development Director Patrick Doherty said. "Everybody kind of has something." New this year will be a Korean pop concert June 11, featuring local acts and popular bands from Korea. Doherty said the addition of a pop concert came out of follow-up meetings after this past year's event. "We didn't have that younger element last year," he said. "We sort of realized there wasn't anything that expressly addressed young adults." While many of the festivities will be centered around a village area at the The Commons mall, Doherty said several events will be available in and around Federal Way. To the south, Todd Beamer High School will host a Tae Kwon Do tournament. Doherty said Tae Kwon Do exhibitions were featured in the first Han Woo-Ri festival but this will be the first year for a tournament. Just outside Federal Way, at Tacoma's Northshore Golf Course, Korean members of the Ladies Professional Golf Association will team up with local residents for a 36-team tournament. Even with new features and events, Doherty said this year's Han Woo-Ri festival was organized with a smaller overall budget and a smaller contribution from the city. According to a May 16 memo from the city's Finance Manager Tho Kraus, expenditures for the 2005 festival totaled about $491,000 for a loss of about $29,000. The memo states the city's hotel/motel tax generated about $175,000 in revenue to help cover festival costs. The city added another $25,000 from the city manager contingency fund to balance the deficit. Doherty said the festival's budget this year was $300,000, with the city contributing about $42,000. "The plan is to get the event going," he explained, adding the eventual goal is for the festival to be mostly self-sustaining, with possibly little or no city contributions in the future. Part of the trouble with getting the festival off the ground was lower than expected revenue in 2005, Doherty said. Organizers are planning a change to the admissions into the Han Woo-Ri Festival Village, going away from the $5 suggested donations of this past year in favor of a small admission fee. This year, admission into the village will cost $2 for adults and $1 for seniors and children 12 and younger. Children younger than 5 will be admitted free of charge. Doherty said the admission fee should help reduce confusion compared to the $5 suggested donations. "I think our admission fees are really pretty low," he said. "It isn't really possible to have free events anymore." Admission fees should also help organizers gauge attendance at this year's festival. In 2005, attendance was measured based on the amount of donations accepted. "It was hard to know how many people attended," Doherty said. Head-counting problems aside, Doherty said the Han Woo-Ri festival not only fills a niche for the Korean-American community, but for Federal Way as well. "There just wasn't really an ongoing, large Korean-American Festival," he said. "It isn't a festival just for Korean-Americans and it isn't just a festival for Federal Way." Doherty said he hopes the festival brings in visitors from well beyond the city limits. Informal surveys seemed to show the 2005 event did draw people into the city. By walking among the crowd, Doherty said he surveyed attendees, asking them which ZIP code they resided in. "I went for 55 minutes without a repeat ZIP code. People were from all over," Doherty said. "So hopefully it does in fact draw people from around. We were hoping it would become a signature event for the community." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest