Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:51:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #248 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (E. Montgomery) 2. Woman in the UFC (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Re: (no subject) (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 4. Kicking when down. (David Weller) 5. Re: Kicking when down. (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 6. RE: (no subject) (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 7. RE: Scottish Drs. and knives (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 8. Re: Kicking when down. (jakskru) 9. WTF Survey (The_Dojang) 10. Re: Kicking when down. (joconnor@cybermesa.com) 11. RE: Scottish Drs. and knives (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 05:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Montgomery" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Um, didn't Jimmy the Greek get into trouble for this exact same kind of argument, except he was stating that blacks were better athletes than whites? Frankly if you watch Casey Marks or Dollie White fight, or any of the top women at Bluegrass next week, you would be eating your words. I am a 42 year old woman and I have beaten a 18 year old black belt man at point sparring - thanks to age and treachery. Ellen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:07:50 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Woman in the UFC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Woman in the UFC I agree woman are equal with men in many areas, However if you are realistic, men are better at some things than woman, and woman are better than men at some things. This is just fact. Yes, there are exceptions. As for the UFC. It stands for Ultimate Fighting Championships. To be Ultimate it must be the best of the best. So to create a Womans UFC would not fit the name. The only way in my opinion to allow woman to fight ( under that name)would be put them in with the men and see what happened. No body would want that including me. So I think woman should bow out of this one. This is not to say women should not compete in ground fighting or Jujitsu, just not cage style full contact. I don't know about the other men here but I like to look at a pretty woman, not one that looks like a man and has both eyes blacked. Now before you all get upset, remember I said woman are better at somethings than men, It is been said that woman can shoot better than men and that they make better pilots, due to there ability to relax and focus. So this is not a bash on woman I just don't think they should be in the octagon. I do think they should learn ground fighting. It is great for rape prevention, and a host of other reasons. Respectfully expecting flack JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:53:34 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ellen, > Um, didn't Jimmy the Greek get into trouble for this exact same kind > of argument, except he was stating that blacks were better athletes > than whites? No. First off, he was arguing that it was the evironment of living in Afica that led them to be better athletes. (Which iirc is actually a form of a discredited theory of evolution I think proposed by a guy named Lamack(?) that said that environmentally developed traits could be passed on to offspring). This is a far cry from simply observing that men and women have different skelatal structure, hormone systems, etc... that give them different bodies and hence lead them to different sets of strentghs and weaknesses when it comes to physical activity. As an important note, he said it publically in a way that was probably taken out of context (as I've heard that in one sense he may have been right as there do seem to be difference in fast-twitch versus slow-twicth muscles between various people groups, but I'm really going on a limb with no support for that right now) Second off, I don't think men are better athletes than women, which is why I earlier hesitated to use the term 'more athletic' in describing men in comparison to women. So this is not the same proposition that one is 'better' than the other, as the original question was why some sports were more 'exciting' when men did them then when women did them and my answer was simply that men doing men's-oriented sports reaches a higher level then women doing men-oriented sports. Fortunately, there are women-oriented sports and, well, men don't do them because they wouldn't be able to do them very well and certainly not to the level of the best women. > Frankly if you watch Casey Marks or Dollie White fight, > or any of the top women at Bluegrass next week, you would be eating > your words. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the people or event > I am a 42 year old woman and I have beaten a 18 year > old black belt man at point sparring - thanks to age and treachery. Sure. The question is, could you beat the best male point sparrer, the best in the world? Could the best female in the world beat the best male? And for the record, I don't know if that's a rhetorical question or not as I'm more familiar with full-contact sparring then point sparring and even at that I'm enough of a beginner not to really know how much strength versus speed versus power versus balance verus stamina versus..etc...come into play. If sparring equalizes the difference between men and women, than I'd be in favor of eliminating the divisions based on sex. Skill (belt) level I understand and age makes sense but I've wondered about whether a seperation based on sex was really needed. Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 4 From: David Weller Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:18 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking when down. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, kicking someone in a fight is dirty fighting, but only when they are on the ground and defenseless. I think that is what bugs folks about "ground & pound". Hey, if you have them on their face, on the ground, it's all over. Ask Royce. And there is a difference between a "fight" like you and I both got into when we were growing up, and a fight for your life. Neither our youthful altercations nor the UFC are "for your life". Thus rules and regulations or calls from the school yard crowd watching to "fight fair". For survival, we don't need no stinking rules! I guess that's about half a cents worth... peace, dave weller On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:37 PM, the_dojang- request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > I understand that hitting a downed opponent still > rubs some people the wrong way. But, this is an artificial standard. > When I was growing up, kicking someone in a fight was considered > "dirty". Is it? --__--__-- Message: 5 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicking when down. Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:44:27 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My problem with 'ground and pound' is that it exposes the whole idea of MMA (re: UFC) as meaning anything about street effectivenss. G&P to me is the best example of a tactic that you would never use in a SD situation because I don't think it could be legally defensible. I think when you realize that, and then realize that the motivations of a a street fight (Get away alive) are a lot different from the motivations of a MMA match (attack and win) which means I think it's difficult to glean much about what is 'street effective' from an MMA match ---------- Original Message ----------- From: David Weller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kicking when down. > Yes, kicking someone in a fight is dirty fighting, but only when > they are on the ground and defenseless. I think that is what bugs > folks about "ground & pound". Hey, if you have them on their face, > on the ground, it's all over. Ask Royce. > > And there is a difference between a "fight" like you and I both got > into when we were growing up, and a fight for your life. Neither our > youthful altercations nor the UFC are "for your life". Thus rules > and regulations or calls from the school yard crowd watching to > "fight fair". For survival, we don't need no stinking rules! > > I guess that's about half a cents worth... > > peace, > dave weller > > On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:37 PM, the_dojang- > request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > > > I understand that hitting a downed opponent still > > rubs some people the wrong way. But, this is an artificial standard. > > When I was growing up, kicking someone in a fight was considered > > "dirty". Is it? > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------- End of Original Message ------- --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 20:07:06 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net An interesting argument. Age, or should I say knowledge and treachery are great tools when in comes to winning and survival. Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: joconnor@cybermesa.com [mailto:joconnor@cybermesa.com] Sent: 02 June 2006 16:54 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Ellen, > Um, didn't Jimmy the Greek get into trouble for this exact same kind > of argument, except he was stating that blacks were better athletes > than whites? No. First off, he was arguing that it was the evironment of living in Afica that led them to be better athletes. (Which iirc is actually a form of a discredited theory of evolution I think proposed by a guy named Lamack(?) that said that environmentally developed traits could be passed on to offspring). This is a far cry from simply observing that men and women have different skelatal structure, hormone systems, etc... that give them different bodies and hence lead them to different sets of strentghs and weaknesses when it comes to physical activity. As an important note, he said it publically in a way that was probably taken out of context (as I've heard that in one sense he may have been right as there do seem to be difference in fast-twitch versus slow-twicth muscles between various people groups, but I'm really going on a limb with no support for that right now) Second off, I don't think men are better athletes than women, which is why I earlier hesitated to use the term 'more athletic' in describing men in comparison to women. So this is not the same proposition that one is 'better' than the other, as the original question was why some sports were more 'exciting' when men did them then when women did them and my answer was simply that men doing men's-oriented sports reaches a higher level then women doing men-oriented sports. Fortunately, there are women-oriented sports and, well, men don't do them because they wouldn't be able to do them very well and certainly not to the level of the best women. > Frankly if you watch Casey Marks or Dollie White fight, > or any of the top women at Bluegrass next week, you would be eating > your words. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the people or event > I am a 42 year old woman and I have beaten a 18 year > old black belt man at point sparring - thanks to age and treachery. Sure. The question is, could you beat the best male point sparrer, the best in the world? Could the best female in the world beat the best male? And for the record, I don't know if that's a rhetorical question or not as I'm more familiar with full-contact sparring then point sparring and even at that I'm enough of a beginner not to really know how much strength versus speed versus power versus balance verus stamina versus..etc...come into play. If sparring equalizes the difference between men and women, than I'd be in favor of eliminating the divisions based on sex. Skill (belt) level I understand and age makes sense but I've wondered about whether a seperation based on sex was really needed. Take care, Jay _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Scottish Drs. and knives Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 21:31:45 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok the my point is, in regards to Scotland. If those stats are true then I have more of a problem with knives than ever. A gun will not protect you from a bullet when fired. That is unless the gun is positioned in a place to stop the bullet. If say you keep a gun in your bedroom and someone broke into your house. Then what do you do? Those who say that guns don't kill people using the guns kill. Well that logic should apply when some one says that a gun wont protect you but the person using it. Btw I want to make something really clear. I don't care about the gun laws in America. I only care about VIOLENCE, especially knife violence in the UK. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 02 June 2006 04:41 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Scottish Drs. and knives Hi Peter, I don't see how I could be making your point - no pun on knives. Perhaps I am not being very clear, perhaps I don't understand the thread very well. So I'll just blame jet lag and try to be a bit more clear in my thoughts. In Scotland you are more likely to be assaulted than in the US. In the US it is legal to carry firearms with a permit in many locations. So, the criminals do not know if the intended victim has a firearm or not, or if someone standing nearby has a firearm that come to the aid of an individual who is being assaulted. Criminals do not assault individuals whom they KNOW will be able to beat them senseless or blow their brains out with a .45 cal. They go after the weak victims (or at least the perceived weak individuals). A 95 year old in a wheel chair can defeat a 18 year old with just a single finger movement. . . . . In the UK violent crime is increasing and has been doing so for some time now, gun laws in the UK are very restrictive as are the laws on other types of weapons. Police officers in the UK do not carry weapons a general rule, when I was over there I heard of a report where about 1/3 of the police have felt that they were in danger from the public in the past year. A police officer (female) was killed a few weeks ago just outside her home with a knife. People are being killed in the UK with knives, and guns even though it is not legal to carry them. Making it illegal to have such weapons does not stop people killing each other. So why should a government take away the ability of an individual to defend themselves or their family? If the criminal knows in their heart of hearts that the victim can not defend themselves, what is to stop criminals from committing crimes? It reminds me of the old Monty Python skit where the cop was chasing the robber - he yelled "STOP - or I shall yell STOP again". Or do you think that a STOP or I'll blow your brains out just "might" be a bit more effective? >From my point of view if I am facing a guy who wants to hit me, I want a stick to whack them. If they have a stick I want a knife to cut them. If they have a knife I want a gun to shoot them. If they have a gun, I want a bigger gun and a bullet proof vest :-) Rick Clark "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds exactly the same opinion." Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org >From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk >In a way you have made my point. However would you be happier >if everyone carried a knife? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] >Hi Peter, > >>Dear Joe, your right to bare arms. Has that made the USA a safer place to live? > >I am just back from the UK and I noticed a number of stabbing making the news in the UK. Do the restrictive laws on knives, guns, and the like >make you more secure in your person and possessions? > >"Scotland has been named the most violent country in the developed world by a United Nations report. > >The study found that, excluding murder, Scots were almost three times as likely to be assaulted as Americans. > >Victims of crime in 21 countries were interviewed by the UN, but senior Scots police officers criticised the study. > >The survey concluded that 2,000 Scots were attacked every week. That figure is 10 times the number recorded in official >police figures......." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm > >With some research on the web I am confident you can find statistics that will show that in states (in the US) that >individuals have the right to carry cancelled weapons (hand guns) there will be a lower rate of crime than in states with >more restrictive laws. > >I have a permit to carry a cancelled handgun, and yes I do feel I am safer with the firearm than without. > > >Rick Clark Rick _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicking when down. Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:56:41 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net yes, but what if you are captured by aliens and forced into gladiator combat on another world fighting for the honor of your species, or perhaps to protect the earth from alien invasion...it might be good to know ground and pound then, wouldnt it? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicking when down. > My problem with 'ground and pound' is that it exposes the whole idea of MMA > (re: UFC) as meaning anything about street effectivenss. G&P to me is the > best example of a tactic that you would never use in a SD situation because I > don't think it could be legally defensible. I think when you realize that, > and then realize that the motivations of a a street fight (Get away alive) > are a lot different from the motivations of a MMA match (attack and win) > which means I think it's difficult to glean much about what is 'street > effective' from an MMA match > > > ---------- Original Message ----------- --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:24:55 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF Survey Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 2006 WTF World Cup Taekwondo Team Championships - Survey on Participation 02 Jun 2006 To: Presidents Member National Associations of WTF Re: 2006 WTF World Cup Taekwondo Team Championships - Survey on participation Date: June 1, 2006 Dear Presidents, As you are well aware, the 1st WTF World Cup Taekwondo Team Championships is scheduled to be held in Bangkok, Thailand from 14 to 17 September 2006. In order to ensure maximum participation, we opened the event to all national associations. And yet it is extremely difficult to estimate how many teams will be participating, which poses not a few issues with regards to logistics such as accommodation, transportation, etc. Therefore, I am asking you to indicate whether or not your teams will be participating by filling out the attached form and sending it back to WTF by return email (wtf@unitel.co.kr) or fax (82 2 553 4728) at latest by June 10, 2006. As this information is crucial in our plan for the organization of the World Cup Taekwondo Team Championships, I do solicit your kind cooperation on this matter. Sincerely yours, Dong-Hoo Moon Secretary General WTF --__--__-- Message: 10 From: joconnor@cybermesa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kicking when down. Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:41 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > yes, but what if you are captured by aliens and forced into > gladiator combat on another world fighting for the honor of your > species, or perhaps to protect the earth from alien invasion...it > might be good to know ground and pound then, wouldnt it? Actually, I saw that movie...called "The Arena" and I think it was a Roger Corman movie. And for what it's worth, situations like that, which *nobody* really every seems ready for, are why I started traing MA in the first place...just in case I'm being persued through the forest by a mainiacal killer or facing off against androids from another planet or find myself teleported to a land of swords and sandles. MA seems a useful skill to have Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:05:19 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Scottish Drs. and knives To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter, >From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk >Ok the my point is, in regards to Scotland. If those stats are true It's from the BBC News - so I am sure there can be no doubt that the facts are accurate :-) > then I have more of a problem with knives than ever. Do you have a problem with knives or with people that use them in the commission of a crime? >A gun will not protect you from a bullet when fired. That is unless the gun is positioned in a place to stop the bullet. >If say you keep a gun in your bedroom and someone broke into your house. Then what do you do? Simple - I pull it out and shoot them. I have no problem with ANYONE defending their home and family with deadly force. I had a childhood friend who was killed along with her husband and three children by thugs that broke into their home. They bound and beat the children to death, then my friend, then finally the husband. Can you really imagine I would have a problem with killing someone who breaks into my home? >Those who say that guns don't kill people using the guns kill. Well that logic should apply when some one says that a gun wont protect you but the >person using it. Of course its the person behind the gun, the gun is only a tool. Just as your hands and feet can be tools in defending yourself or your family. If you don't have the tools to defend yourself no matter the tool they you will be a victim. >Btw I want to make something really clear. I don't care about the gun laws in America. I only care about >VIOLENCE, especially knife violence in the UK. OK - no care about US gun law - not a problem. My point is violent thugs will attack those who are perceived as weak and can not defend themselves. If you can not be sure of who is going to be a passive victim then the thugs will be more careful on who they attack. If the laws in any country do not allow you to use reasonable self defense then you will have an increase in crime. Rick Clark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest