Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:14:24 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #260 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Master Whalen (Frank Clay) 2. Training Not In Sight (Michael Atamian) 3. Re: Making a martial arts living (sidtkd@aol.com) 4. Congrats to Joseph (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 5. Tracy's Karate (E. Montgomery) 6. Good student (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) 7. School Decals (gtkda@ntelos.net) 8. Re: NKMAA Seminar - Oregon (Dewitt, Garrett) 9. Cost of business (Stovall, Craig) 10. Re: Master Gordon's Post (Dewitt, Garrett) 11. re: training not in sight (John Nowicki) 12. Re: Training Not In Sight (Jye nigma) 13. Re: re: training not in sight (Jye nigma) 14. Caveat emptor (The_Dojang) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:44:01 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Whalen Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I haven't heard from Master Whalen lately. How is he doing? Anyone have any school contact information for him? Frank --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Michael Atamian" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:13:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Training Not In Sight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why would anyone be interested in a martial arts school that does not allow you to observe a class?! The answer is usually because the school's instructors know that what they are teaching is sub standard or simply one person's made up curriculum based upon nonsense...or both! Every legitimate school that I know of allows visitors. Some, due to space restrictions, ask you to call ahead. A few even use one way glass where you can observe a class but the students in training cannot see and are not distracted. If the school's instructors do not allow you to watch, then simply move on to a school that will, as, Lord knows, there will be many more trials and tests before you get even close to picking the right school. I have found, in my almost 50 years in the martial arts, that the best instruction comes from those who teach small classes, do not worry about what time the class will end, are not money hungry and do not brag about their trophies, the organizations they belong to, how many boards they can break and how many thousands of black belts they have produced. In a 50 mile radius of where I live there are at least 400 schools and I would not set foot in more than 6 of them. Food for thought. Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:13:31 -0400 From: sidtkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Making a martial arts living Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Maybe its just me....but by and large, martial arts is a terrible way to make a decent living. In NYC you need about $100,000 per year for a family of four to live in minimal comfort. Some do it for less, but I don't want to live over a store. I would estimate that about 80% of those starting martial arts businesses fold within 2 years. Probably, opening a dance studio with martial arts as an adjunct may work. But you will always need an adjucn t income to make it happen. Sid Rubinfeld ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:42:24 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Congrats to Joseph Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Joseph, Congratulations!!!! I always thought that was the committee's job, to really make sure you can function under extreme pressure, without forgetting what you learned and did! Kind of like a Black Belt Test! Danny Dunn <<<<>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:55:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Montgomery" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tracy's Karate Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net They are still big in the St. Louis area. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:35:18 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Good student Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know this is an opinion based question ,and I expect different answers and different views.What I want to know is what you good people believe a good student is, what are some characteristics of a good student. Kurtis --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gtkda@ntelos.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] School Decals Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am looking at getting a school decal made as an advertisement for my school. Not so much as a bumper sticker but one for car/truck/van windows. I have searched the Internet for sites where you can make your own stickers and order them but all of the ones I have looked at are so expensive! Does anyone out there have any good and reasonable suggestions? I have the design already made up and can send it to anyone who may do this kind of thing on the side or would just like to look at it. Thank you for any suggestions. James Morgan Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy Lewisburg, WV --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:00:31 -0500 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: NKMAA Seminar - Oregon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster Rudy W. Timmerman. Sir, I sincerely hope that your travels are safe and your training/seminar in Oregon is very productive. I certainly have missed the guidance and mentoring from you Sir and Master Janisse. Best wishes to all of you, I certainly wish I could be there. Respectfully Garrett --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:57:56 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Cost of business Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Yes, but...I'm offended by your capitalist mentality and dogma that is the direct memetic outgrowth of the consumer culture that was given birth to by the Post-WWII/Cold War fusion of information technology, rapid industrialization, and techno-corporate "groupthink" that now leads us into direct conflict with more "antique" cultures and is slowly destroying the biosphere. Ok, I'm just kidding. Kapitalizm rokkz!!! "Waiter...another round of porn and anti-depressants for my fellow Americans...and put it on my Visa". <<>> Damn, bro! You trying to make the case for the opposition? Hey, I gotta tell ya it is definitely tough to make a living at MA, but I wanted to share one "ultra success" story to let people know that it is possible to make a VERY good living at this stuff. This cat I know about an hour from here has a school with about 350 to 400 students. We figure he's easily grossing $40k a month (you can pick your jaw up off the keyboard now). We go over there and train a couple of times a month because one of my oldest friend's in the MA's runs his MMA program for him. The facility is 10k square feet. Two big workout areas. The main area has a gymnastics floor, and there's a secondary padded room for aerobic kickboxing and MMA. Pro shop, offices, dressing rooms...the place is pimped out like Al Pacino's mansion in 'Scarface'. The only thing missing is the hot tub and a rocket launching M-16. He's got 5 or 6 people on staff, he's got like 4 of those passenger vans to pick up the kids for after school programs. He does straight TKD, weapons, XMA, and MMA all under one roof. What's his secret? All I can say is that the secret to real estate success is location, location, location. As near as I can figure out the secret to commercial success in MA's is professionalism, professionalism, professionalism. This guy is clean cut, well-spoken, professional, very charismatic, and DAMN good at MA's. His staff is also world class...great people, professional, and great at their respective martial arts. They are focused on two things...excellence and service. And the community (very affluent demographic) is turning out in droves to support it. I always looked at people who starved to death teaching MA's and I would tell myself "that's why I'll never try to teach for money". But, then I see this guy and I'm like "damn, why can't that be me...doing what you love and becoming financially independent". Oh well, the universe gives some people money, and the rest of us have to put up with just being devastatingly handsome. Curses!!! Craig "Prophet of Capitalism, God of Sarcasm" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:55:29 -0500 From: "Dewitt, Garrett" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Gordon's Post Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Gordon wrote; "I find it irritating that people would have the audacity to make someone trying to make an honest living feel guilty for doing so or viceversa." "If you wanna teach for free, great...but don't beat me up because I want to make a decent income." Sir, this is an excellent post and I thank you for the website/article information as well. Over the years I have had a handful of students who, while coming up through the ranks, have said to me, "gee, I can't wait until I can open up my martial arts school and just pull in the money/bucks like you are." Sure thing.. Some still cannot understand why it is (although clean and useful) that I have to wait another year to replace our eight year old carpet and why I am slowly replacing our four year old blue kicking targets. Apparently they haven't heard of a "budget" as yet. Hmmmm, guess who is the first to complain about a five ($5.00) dollar increase for monthly dues?? It is unfortunate that most of these individuals haven't a clue just how much money goes out the door NOT to mention "the countless hours which you spend away from home and family." I intend to print your post Sir and hand this out to those who "assume" I am just sitting back sucking the money out of their bank accounts and enjoying the finer things in life. Regards Garrett --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "John Nowicki" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:30:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: training not in sight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, I saw this in Korea.  My instructor's instructor's school in Korea does not have spectators.  All three of their dojang floors extend to the entrance with storage cupboards at the back and shoes left in the hall (here is a picture of most of one of the floors http://cafe.daum.net/taekwon7 ).  The entire floor is needed for training.  I asked what they did if potential students and their parents wanted to watch.  They said they were allowed to sit at the back of the room for one class.  There are so many students at this school that it would not be feasible to allow parents to come and watch training, they would take up too much space.  I got the impression that they do not want the influence of parents watching their children practice, they want the students to focus without distraction.  Now at my instructor's school here in the states people are allowed to spectate with permission.  Parents can come and watch every class and outsiders are welcome to come check us out depending on the specific class.  I personally would prefer no spectators.  In my very short 4 1/2 years of experience I do not like this.  I would prefer to do it how our schools in Korea do it.  I have seen numerous instances of parents interrupting, coaching, cheering, etc...  All things that interrupt the focus of the students.  I have also witnessed situations where students were getting one of the best training sessions in their life and they never returned.  The parents felt the instructor was being way to hard on thier kid, even though all other students are treated the same.  I also coach ice hockey goaltenders and definitely do not want the parents watching.  Exact same reason as above, mental distraction, and they will approach me after practice usually to tell me how I should be coaching their kid (usually people that never played goailie or even hockey in their lives).  I have also heard of gymnastic schools not allowing parents to watch class.  Now even though I am a proponent of no spectators (parents and friends) during calss, I believe it is 100% necessarry to allow potential students to observe a class, only if they are going to participate in a free lesson at the end of class.  I couldn't imagine ever joining a school without being able to see how they train.  I would love to hear the opinions of the experienced instructors on this matter.            John M. Nowicki --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:06:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Training Not In Sight To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net yeah that turned me off. I need to see my where my potential investment is going. That's like going to a college and them wanting you to sign up without taking a tour of the campus...lol. jye Michael Atamian wrote: Why would anyone be interested in a martial arts school that does not allow you to observe a class?! The answer is usually because the school's instructors know that what they are teaching is sub standard or simply one person's made up curriculum based upon nonsense...or both! Every legitimate school that I know of allows visitors. Some, due to space restrictions, ask you to call ahead. A few even use one way glass where you can observe a class but the students in training cannot see and are not distracted. If the school's instructors do not allow you to watch, then simply move on to a school that will, as, Lord knows, there will be many more trials and tests before you get even close to picking the right school. I have found, in my almost 50 years in the martial arts, that the best instruction comes from those who teach small classes, do not worry about what time the class will end, are not money hungry and do not brag about their trophies, the organizations they belong to, how many boards they can break and how many thousands of black belts they have produced. In a 50 mile radius of where I live there are at least 400 schools and I would not set foot in more than 6 of them. Food for thought. Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: training not in sight To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can understand that distraction concept or the show off to impress my parents mindset, as I've seen it before. But nowadays with all these perverts improperly touching and molesting these children, I doubt if we'll have schools like in Korea. I know with my 8 year old son, I would be at every single classes you just can't trust anyone anymore. But a nice alternative could be to have the classes monitored via cct and parents can view from a waiting room. Jye John Nowicki wrote: Jye, I saw this in Korea. My instructor's instructor's school in Korea does not have spectators. All three of their dojang floors extend to the entrance with storage cupboards at the back and shoes left in the hall (here is a picture of most of one of the floors http://cafe.daum.net/taekwon7 ). The entire floor is needed for training. I asked what they did if potential students and their parents wanted to watch. They said they were allowed to sit at the back of the room for one class. There are so many students at this school that it would not be feasible to allow parents to come and watch training, they would take up too much space. I got the impression that they do not want the influence of parents watching their children practice, they want the students to focus without distraction. Now at my instructor's school here in the states people are allowed to spectate with permission. Parents can come and watch every class and outsiders are welcome to come check us out depending on the specific class. I personally would prefer no spectators. In my very short 4 1/2 years of experience I do not like this. I would prefer to do it how our schools in Korea do it. I have seen numerous instances of parents interrupting, coaching, cheering, etc... All things that interrupt the focus of the students. I have also witnessed situations where students were getting one of the best training sessions in their life and they never returned. The parents felt the instructor was being way to hard on thier kid, even though all other students are treated the same. I also coach ice hockey goaltenders and definitely do not want the parents watching. Exact same reason as above, mental distraction, and they will approach me after practice usually to tell me how I should be coaching their kid (usually people that never played goailie or even hockey in their lives). I have also heard of gymnastic schools not allowing parents to watch class. Now even though I am a proponent of no spectators (parents and friends) during calss, I believe it is 100% necessarry to allow potential students to observe a class, only if they are going to participate in a free lesson at the end of class. I couldn't imagine ever joining a school without being able to see how they train. I would love to hear the opinions of the experienced instructors on this matter. John M. Nowicki _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:06:04 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Caveat emptor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Caveat emptor. http://www.kmaia.org/ Be careful out there. Fakes and frauds abound in the martial arts world... --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest