Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:23:29 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #276 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: The value of legitimacy (sidtkd@aol.com) 2. RE: Dan acquirement (Master Mark Seidel) 3. Hackworth (Frank Clay) 4. Start a searchable database (Frank Clay) 5. Ban the UFC (Stovall, Craig) 6. RE: Dan acquirement (DonnaMarie Celauro) 7. Re: Dan acquirement (Josette LeBlanc) 8. BLACK BELT IN LESS THAN A YEAR (Gordon) 9. Re: BLACK BELT IN LESS THAN A YEAR (Jay O'Connor) 10. Re: Dan acquirement (Jay O'Connor) 11. Thanks! (Christina Roberts) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:24:02 -0400 From: sidtkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The value of legitimacy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I compare balck belt kukkiwon holders to college degreed individuals. There are covalent arguemnts that abound. First,getting an accredited degree does not make you a scholar. True...very true. Getting an unaccredited or not having a degree doesn't make you dumb. Also very true. But here is what the essence is as I see it. Having a degree or kukkiwon means you met minimum requirements and you followed the rules. I personally don't care too much if one has a kukkiwon as long as you don't charge peoiple for kukkiwons and collect fees!!! Sid ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:48:29 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Money and its insatiable thirst thereof; the longer you take the more tuition and testing fees; however it is impossible to be a true BB in one year I don't care what country you are in. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Josette LeBlanc [mailto:josette.leblanc@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:49 PM To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Hi everyone! This is my first time using this resource. I must say I am very impressed and happy to see such a great resource available to all Korean martial artists. I have been studying hapkido in Daegu, South Korea for a year and a half. I study five days a week for an hour each time. I got my first dan within a year. When I learned how quickly I would receive my first dan I was surprised. I thought it would take much longer. Now, I am fast on my way to my second degree. I have also asked students in Korea of taekwondo and gumdo how long it takes them to attain their dans. They all confirm a year. My question to you is, why does it take only a year to get your dans in Korea, but it takes much longer in other countries? Thank you ^ ^ Josette LeBlanc -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:08:02 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If Hackworth is working for AmeriNational what does it matter? Irrespective of his past, he does have the right to make a living. I'd say leave him alone. At some point, pursuing him will cross over into criminal charges for someone and likely not for him. I think a wait and see attitude is probably the best approach. Remember none of us want to cross over the line and be seen as harassing him. That would diminish our credibility and harm our cause of trying to protect the innocent. I'm sure some of my esteemed colleagues still involved in law enforcement or who are advocates can provide more information. Frank --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:28:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Start a searchable database Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, I see where you are going but do you have any idea how much work you are talking about? You'd have to maintain it, run the risk of law suits for collecting information about other people and so forth. You'd need to use something that provides "views" so that there is a dedicated table in the database that can't be manipulated but now you are getting into database design. I'm not sure if MySQL has this function but I know that SQL server does and at $4K for a user, its a bit steep. I'm not saying that the information should not be available. I'm saying that I think the request should be in writing or that there is at a minimum a section of the form that is required that asks for a reason for the request and that the database capture the requestors IP address. None of these things are unreasonable and would help the average consumer. My concern is that if organizations aren't careful, then they may as well simply mail your personal information out to crooks. Lord knows there are enough of them out there. Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:33:16 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Ban the UFC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I always hear the safety issue brought up, but quite frankly I think the current UFC rules are actually much safer than boxing. You just don't see the "stand up wars" that you see in boxing, and this is where the brain damage takes place...hundreds of cumulative blows over the course of 10+ rounds. Pride FC is a different story...somebody's going to get killed from a head stomp or paralyzed from a spearing throw...there's just no way around it unless they wake up and change the rules. To me, UFC has a lot of their bases covered, and most of the fighters (believe it or not) are honorable enough to not take advantage of a bad situation and intentionally hurt someone. The Bisping/Haynes fight the other night is a good example...Bisping could have put him away HARD at the end, but he seemed to hold back a little and gave him a "soft landing" until McCarthy had decided he'd seen enough. Classy. I'm not sure what you mean by the "illegality of mutual combat". What about boxing, kickboxing, Judo, wrestling, Sambo, fencing, Olympic TKD, etc. Are these not "mutual combats"? MMA has attained virtually the same level of state athletic commission sanctioning across the U.S. as professional boxing. Probably more so than kickboxing, which is a godawful unorganized mess in this country and flies under the radar in most states. The key to remember is that MMA is regulated and sanctioned...there must be weight classes, fighters must submit to drug tests and medical evaluations, shows must adhere to strict rules and requirements, referees must be licensed, etc. The wild and wooly days of Royce Gracie are long gone in more ways than one. Culturally, we have bigger problems than the UFC. Consumerism is eating the planet alive, drug use is rampant, and half the country is on the verge of a diabetic coma...and people scream against the UFC. I don't get it. To be honest, I understand both sides of the debate. I've always liked martial arts and combat sports, and the UFC fills a certain male longing in me that is drawn to mock combat/rites of passage/ritualized violence, etc. On the other hand, the outer layers of my monkey brain wishes that our species could someday move past such things, and enter a more cerebral age of prosperity and cooperation. I think in some ways we have, but I also believe that "the wolf" will always be there inside of us and it needs some sort of a healthy outlet. The one criticism I will lay at the feet of Dana White is the way in which the sport is marketed. I like hot chicks as much as the next guy, but the way sex and skin are being prepackaged with the sport is a little much (and insulting to my intelligence). Have you seen the new Xyience commercial that they've been running constantly during the TUF finale? I've seen German porn that showed less T&A...GEEZ!!! Anyhow, I think the UFC is here to stay. The growth is phenomenal, and I believe that it can peacefully co-exist right alongside TMA. But, that's just my opinion... --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "DonnaMarie Celauro" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:55 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congrats!!!!!! Perhaps because in Korea you train more frequent than in the US. Most schools here only hold a class a few times a week. My personal opinion is that unless you train frequently as you did, you can not assertain the true fundamentals.  Most anyone can learn forms and such, but it's a deeper fundamental that you can only learn over time.   -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Master Mark Seidel" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:48:29 -0400 Money and its insatiable thirst thereof; the longer you take the more tuition and testing fees; however it is impossible to be a true BB in one year I don't care what country you are in. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Josette LeBlanc [mailto:josette.leblanc@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:49 PM To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Hi everyone! This is my first time using this resource. I must say I am very impressed and happy to see such a great resource available to all Korean martial artists. I have been studying hapkido in Daegu, South Korea for a year and a half. I study five days a week for an hour each time. I got my first dan within a year. When I learned how quickly I would receive my first dan I was surprised. I thought it would take much longer. Now, I am fast on my way to my second degree. I have also asked students in Korea of taekwondo and gumdo how long it takes them to attain their dans. They all confirm a year. My question to you is, why does it take only a year to get your dans in Korea, but it takes much longer in other countries? Thank you ^ ^ Josette LeBlanc -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:55:02 -0700 From: "Josette LeBlanc" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I fully agree with you Master Seidel: "however it is impossible to be a true BB in one year I don't care what country you are in." When I recived my "black" belt, I realized how little I knew, and how much more I have to learn. I am curious, however. This is my first long term experience with martial arts. Generally, how long does a student expect to attain this first level of certification in North America? Thank you for your insight, Josette On 27/06/06, Master Mark Seidel wrote: > > Money and its insatiable thirst thereof; the longer you take the more > tuition and testing fees; however it is impossible to be a true BB in one > year I don't care what country you are in. > > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josette LeBlanc [mailto:josette.leblanc@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:49 PM > To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement > > Hi everyone! > > This is my first time using this resource. I must say I am very impressed > and happy to see such a great resource available to all Korean martial > artists. > > I have been studying hapkido in Daegu, South Korea for a year and a > half. I > study five days a week for an hour each time. I got my first dan within a > year. When I learned how quickly I would receive my first dan I was > surprised. I thought it would take much longer. Now, I am fast on my way > to my second degree. I have also asked students in Korea of taekwondo and > gumdo how long it takes them to attain their dans. They all confirm a > year. > My question to you is, why does it take only a year to get your dans in > Korea, but it takes much longer in other countries? > > Thank you ^ ^ > > Josette LeBlanc > > -- > "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it > becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You > put > it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. > Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:13:39 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] BLACK BELT IN LESS THAN A YEAR Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From childhood, to leaving my parent's house, even to ALL of my martial arts instructors, I've be told never say anything bad about someone else. A friend, a relative, a fellow student, another school or instructor, all have their own set of circumstances and you can't know everything that they are going through. So, a modicum of tolerance is always recommended. That being said, I would have to agree with Master Seidel. In my mind, a black belt has to have time to build muscle memory, reflex speed, poise and balance. The body builds a library, if you will, of responses to stimuli. For instance, the eye sees a punch coming. The feet shift balance, the head and shoulders fade out of the line of attack. The arms and hands move to intercept. All the time this is going on, the counter is being built depending on the path of the attack. With 1 hour a day, 5 days a week in less than a year, it is my belief that there is not enough time to build this library to the level I would associate with a black belt. Respects and bows, Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:39:28 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] BLACK BELT IN LESS THAN A YEAR Cc: Gordon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think part of what happens is simply that the meaning of a BB is different for different people. What I mean is that basically I've been told that ahaving a BB simply means that you can perform all the techniques of the art. You basically have that catalog of techniques, forms, etc.. And then at that point is when the *real* training starts as you seek to master that catalog. Now, when I trained with an American teacher versus a Korean teacher, I got the impression that what was excpected as far as learning a technique was a lot different. The Korean seemed of the opinion that if I could do the technique, that was good enough, time to learn something else. So my belts preogressed faster but my learning was just the same. Whereas the American instructor made me have a much higher level of proficiency in a technique before promoting me. So under one system I could get a BB much faster than the other, but that just meant that they had different mental models of what it meant to be able to perofrm a technique sufficiently to move on, and to say that I could perform all the techniques of the art. One seemed to view the colored blets as jus the introduction to the art, where the real training starts at BB, the other seemed to have a view that he wanted a much higher level of proficciency at those techniques before awarding BB. I don't think either is really wrong, just a different perspective on what BB means. One seemed to treat it like a college degree, the other like a high-school diploma. But in the end...if I train for 20 years and more, does it matter if it took me a year or three or five to put on the BB? And in the end, the guy taking a swing at me doesn't care what color belt I have, and in a sense I don't either. If I can block his shot and counter and survive, whatever rank I have, is what matters to me. Take care, Jay ---- Gordon wrote: > From childhood, to leaving my parent's house, even to ALL of my martial arts > instructors, I've be told never say anything bad about someone else. A > friend, a relative, a fellow student, another school or instructor, all have > their own set of circumstances and you can't know everything that they are > going through. So, a modicum of tolerance is always recommended. That > being said, I would have to agree with Master Seidel. > > In my mind, a black belt has to have time to build muscle memory, reflex > speed, poise and balance. The body builds a library, if you will, of > responses to stimuli. For instance, the eye sees a punch coming. The feet > shift balance, the head and shoulders fade out of the line of attack. The > arms and hands move to intercept. All the time this is going on, the > counter is being built depending on the path of the attack. With 1 hour a > day, 5 days a week in less than a year, it is my belief that there is not > enough time to build this library to the level I would associate with a > black belt. > > Respects and bows, > > Gordon Okerstrom > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:44:11 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Cc: Josette LeBlanc Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I started at a Taekwondo school where it took me three months to go from White to the next belt (orange) and four months to go from Green to Blue (and those where minimu times allowed by my 2nd Dan instructor). Then I went to a school, told by a Korean 7th Dan) and it took me about a month to go from 2nd Gup to 1st Gup (see my other email as they had diferent opinions about what each belt meant) Now I'm in a Hybrid Hapkido achool and the instructor seems to test...occasionally. So I'm back to white and will probably be here a long time, but I'm learning a lot and improving and such so it doesn't matter to me at whatpoint I test (we don't wear belts in class, either) So...it really varies depending on themenality of the instructor Take care, Jay ---- Josette LeBlanc wrote: > I fully agree with you Master Seidel: > > "however it is impossible to be a true BB in one > year I don't care what country you are in." > > When I recived my "black" belt, I realized how little I knew, and how much > more I have to learn. > > I am curious, however. This is my first long term experience with martial > arts. Generally, how long does a student expect to attain this first level > of certification in North America? > > Thank you for your insight, > > Josette > > > > On 27/06/06, Master Mark Seidel wrote: > > > > Money and its insatiable thirst thereof; the longer you take the more > > tuition and testing fees; however it is impossible to be a true BB in one > > year I don't care what country you are in. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Josette LeBlanc [mailto:josette.leblanc@gmail.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:49 PM > > To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement > > > > Hi everyone! > > > > This is my first time using this resource. I must say I am very impressed > > and happy to see such a great resource available to all Korean martial > > artists. > > > > I have been studying hapkido in Daegu, South Korea for a year and a > > half. I > > study five days a week for an hour each time. I got my first dan within a > > year. When I learned how quickly I would receive my first dan I was > > surprised. I thought it would take much longer. Now, I am fast on my way > > to my second degree. I have also asked students in Korea of taekwondo and > > gumdo how long it takes them to attain their dans. They all confirm a > > year. > > My question to you is, why does it take only a year to get your dans in > > Korea, but it takes much longer in other countries? > > > > Thank you ^ ^ > > > > Josette LeBlanc > > > > -- > > "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it > > becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You > > put > > it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. > > Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > > > -- > "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it > becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put > it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. > Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:28:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Christina Roberts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Master Terry, and thank you Ms. Kidder. It's great to have finally made it to black belt! Christina Roberts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest