Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:40:58 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #278 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Dan acquirement (Master Mark Seidel) 2. Re: Hackworth (Jason E. Thomas) 3. Hackworth (Frank Clay) 4. =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?WTF-Organized_Int=92l_Poomsae?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_Seminars_Under_way_in_Seoul?= (The_Dojang) 5. Kukkiwon Announcement on Higher Dan Promotion Test (The_Dojang) 6. Time In Rank (Michael Atamian) 7. RE: Time In Rank (michael tomlinson) 8. RE: Time In Rank (Rick Clark) 9. Re: Time In Rank (Josette LeBlanc) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:13:18 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Josette I am fortunate to teach in a Charter school where the PE program is TKD consequently kindergarteners start at no belt and they test once a year and are Black Belts by 8th grade. I have just promoted 6 students to Black Belt who have been training since 3rd and 4th grade when I started the program in 2000. My students will take a minimum of 5 years and a maximum of 9 and some are not interested in testing for BB at all, just like in traditional schools. So I would say I am the exception. I don't have to worry about expenses, recruiting new students or testing fees, every year I have 180+ students. Generally though and when I taught at traditional TKD school people were promoted in the time frame they progressed; there was testing offered every 2 months there were 10 gub levels and then you were a Danbo (red and black) for 4 months that equaled two years. Although students that took private lessons tested for BB sooner. On average in the US I believe 24-30 months is about normal. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Josette LeBlanc [mailto:josette.leblanc@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:55 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement I fully agree with you Master Seidel: "however it is impossible to be a true BB in one year I don't care what country you are in." When I recived my "black" belt, I realized how little I knew, and how much more I have to learn. I am curious, however. This is my first long term experience with martial arts. Generally, how long does a student expect to attain this first level of certification in North America? Thank you for your insight, Josette On 27/06/06, Master Mark Seidel wrote: > > Money and its insatiable thirst thereof; the longer you take the more > tuition and testing fees; however it is impossible to be a true BB in > one year I don't care what country you are in. > > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josette LeBlanc [mailto:josette.leblanc@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:49 PM > To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan acquirement > > Hi everyone! > > This is my first time using this resource. I must say I am very > impressed and happy to see such a great resource available to all > Korean martial artists. > > I have been studying hapkido in Daegu, South Korea for a year and a > half. I study five days a week for an hour each time. I got my first > dan within a year. When I learned how quickly I would receive my > first dan I was surprised. I thought it would take much longer. Now, > I am fast on my way to my second degree. I have also asked students > in Korea of taekwondo and gumdo how long it takes them to attain their > dans. They all confirm a year. > My question to you is, why does it take only a year to get your dans > in Korea, but it takes much longer in other countries? > > Thank you ^ ^ > > Josette LeBlanc > > -- > "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it > becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. > You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and > it can crash. > Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard > disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:54:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason E. Thomas" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hasn't someone already lost their job over this? At some point it needs to go away. Master Lugo wrote: Easy for you to say sine your not a customer of AmeriNational, I wonder if you would feel the same if that was the case. I for one do not want him handling my schools account, as a customer I can cancel or move my account if I find that he can access my files. When I go down to FL in Nov. I wonder if he will have the same tone of voice in a past email towards me. From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:08:02 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If Hackworth is working for AmeriNational what does it matter? Irrespective of his past, he does have the right to make a living. I'd say leave him alone. At some point, pursuing him will cross over into criminal charges for someone and likely not for him. I think a wait and see attitude is probably the best approach. Remember none of us want to cross over the line and be seen as harassing him. That would diminish our credibility and harm our cause of trying to protect the innocent. I'm sure some of my esteemed colleagues still involved in law enforcement or who are advocates can provide more information. Frank _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:29:34 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Lugo, I know there are hard feelings about the guy... I lost a lot to to him, and was therefore directly affected. That being said, you have to be careful or you will come across as the one causing trouble. Doing something that looks spiteful will benefit no one but him and his camp. I'm not saying that that its easy but my opinion is that regardless of our feelings towards the guy, he too deserves to make a living. That doesn't mean that we forgive and forget, we just leave things alone for now. AmeriNational assigns you a rep who works on your account. Make sure he is not your rep. If you get him, request to speak to someone else. that is your right. If they don't want to comply, then escalate it. If he is going into peoples accounts then that is another ball of wax and should be dealt with legally. I'd also encourage you to remember that many times in court the perp ends up with more rights than the victim. Persecute this guy and you could be the one in a legal jam. I'd hate to see someone get off because we were too zealous and could not bide our time. Frank --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:02:06 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?WTF-Organized_Int=92l_Poomsae?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?_Seminars_Under_way_in_Seoul?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF-Organized Int'l Poomsae Seminars Under way in Seoul International poomsae seminars organized by the World Taekwondo Federation are under way in Seoul, Korea. The 2nd WTF International Poomsae Referee Refresher Course attracted 88 students from 14 countries, while the 6th WTF International Poomsae Referee Seminar drew 96 students from 19 countries. The two poomsae events, which are under way at the Korea National Sport University in Seoul, kicked off on June 24, 2006, for a four-day run. Mr. Jong-kwan Lee and Mr. Kyu-hyun Lee, both of Korea, serve as instructors for the poomsae events. The WTF is also scheduled to hold the 2nd WTF International Poomsae Referee Seminar for Coach at the same venue from June 28 to 29. The seminar is expected to draw over 50 students from about 20 countries. On attendance at the seminars is Mr. Soo-nam Park, vice president of the WTF and chairman of the WTF's ad-hoc Poomsae Committee. WTF President Chungwon Choue is expected to visit the Korea National Sport University on June 27 to meet the poomsae seminar participants. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:04:13 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon Announcement on Higher Dan Promotion Test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kukkiwon Announcement on Higher Dan Promotion Test The Kukkiwon will hold the third Higher Dan Promotion Test for this year on Sept. 2, 2006 at the Kukkiwon. Those who have met the requirements for the test such as time passage from the previous Dan promotion and age limit, as stipulated in Article 8 of the Regulations of the Kukkiwon Dan Promotion Test, are eligible for the application. There will be a lecture on poomsae for the participants from 8 a.m. to 9:50 a.m. on the same day. Korean residents are eligible for promotion from 6th through 9th Dan. Foreign residents are eligible for 8th and 9th Dan only. Requirements Dan/ Cls Time lapse since last Dan promotion Age 6th Dan 5 years (promoted to the 5th Dan prior to Sept. 30, 2001) 30 years and over (Born on or before Sept. 30, 1976) 7th Dan 6 years (promoted to 6th Dan prior to Sept. 30, 2000) 36 years and over (Born on or before Sept. 30, 1970) 8th Dan 8 years (promoted to 7th and prior to Sept.30, 1998) 44 years and over (Born on or before Sept. 30, 1962) 9th Dan 9 years (promoted to 8th Dan prior to Sept. 30, 1997) 53 years and over (Born on or before Sept. 30, 1953) For further information, please contact the Kukkiwon's International Division either at 82-2-563-3339 (telephone) or 82-2-552-3025 (fax). --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Atamian" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:34:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wasn't going to add my comments to this subject but since the replies were all over the board I felt duty bound to add to the discussion. I earned my First Dan in Paju-ri and Munsan-ni, South Korea in 1958 after 17 months of training, 5 nights a week and occasional weekends inside a mud hut and outside on the ground. We had little else to do there just south of the DMZ (apart from chasing the village girls and drinking 3.2 beer) and Korea at that time looked a lot like Afghanistan does now. Training was difficult and the standards were very high, something we later coined a term for called "Yesterday's Standards". We were told then that a First Dan meant you were a "master of the basics" with a lifetime to learn and teach. First Dans did not teach - they assisted as "ukes". Instructors then taught from the heart, with no regard for compensation. I washed the Master's dobok and did chores which most of you would now regard as demeaning and insulting. Respect has to be earned...it is never "assumed"...and it is always a two way proposition. When I returned to America, I served the rest of my military time in Alabama and went home to Rhode Island. There were only Jiu jutsu, Judo and Aikido schools (mostly) and one Uechi-ryu school...all legitimate and all Japanese styles. The highest rank at that time was Professor Milton Gowdey, Fourth Dan in Aiki-jutsu. Within five years hundreds of schools popped up and we were flooded with more wannabees than we could handle and "commercial karate" arrived big time, but I later found that this happened all over America. The "Korean invasion" of the late 60s-80s produced more "Masters" than a locust storm! Make money and print Dan certificates was the order of the day. The steady dilution of the purity of all martial arts started then and it continues today. Take a quart of pure orange juice and mix it with a quart of water. Now you have 2 quarts of orange juice, right? Well, if you never had orange juice and you were thirsty you would be none the wiser. Keep diluting and you will have an orange colored drink. I have seen Black Belts of all Dan ranks who were sub standard based upon the values of "yesterday's standards" and more and more of them exist today (see orange juice story above). The reason is that we have no control over the martial arts as do other sports and industries. The martial arts opened the door to those who would be "Masters, Grandmasters and yes even Great Grandmasters"...many of whom whose only talent was knowing how to fleece unsuspecting young people and adults who wanted to "belong" to something so they could feel a sense of importance and self worth. These walking cash registers don't teach martial arts they teach materialism and profiteering. This is not to say that some amongst us who teach martial arts as a livelihood are not entitled to compensation as that is part of The American Dream. These Instructors are simply trying to combine earning a good living with doing what they love the most...teaching their particular martial art! Then, you became an assistant instructor at First Dan, Instructor at Second Dan then sanctioned at Third Dan to open your own school in order to pass the art on to others. Masters were considered to be Fourth and Fifth Dan depending on their systems and styles. Dan rank from Sixth and above were mostly ceremonial and had to do with assuming regional responsibilities in proliferating the art. How long does it take to earn a First Dan? Well, how hard do you train...How Often? How good is your Instructor? How long does it take to earn a medical degree? I am not being judge mental here but I do believe it is mostly up to the White Belt Student and his Third Dan or above Instructor....how well they communicate and how well BOTH apply and commit themselves. Guess I am back full circle to Master Ray Terry's comment - "Caveat emptor". Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:16:43 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Nice post...very well said.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Michael Atamian" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:34:11 -0400 > >I wasn't going to add my comments to this subject but since the replies >were all over the board I felt duty bound to add to the discussion. > > I earned my First Dan in Paju-ri and Munsan-ni, South Korea in 1958 >after 17 months of training, 5 nights a week and occasional weekends inside >a mud hut and outside on the ground. We had little else to do there just >south of the DMZ (apart from chasing the village girls and drinking 3.2 >beer) and Korea at that time looked a lot like Afghanistan does now. > Training was difficult and the standards were very high, something we >later coined a term for called "Yesterday's Standards". We were told then >that a First Dan meant you were a "master of the basics" with a lifetime to >learn and teach. First Dans did not teach - they assisted as "ukes". >Instructors then taught from the heart, with no regard for compensation. I >washed the Master's dobok and did chores which most of you would now regard >as demeaning and insulting. Respect has to be earned...it is never >"assumed"...and it is always a two way proposition. > > When I returned to America, I served the rest of my military time in >Alabama and went home to Rhode Island. There were only Jiu jutsu, Judo and >Aikido schools (mostly) and one Uechi-ryu school...all legitimate and all >Japanese styles. The highest rank at that time was Professor Milton >Gowdey, Fourth Dan in Aiki-jutsu. Within five years hundreds of schools >popped up and we were flooded with more wannabees than we could handle and >"commercial karate" arrived big time, but I later found that this happened >all over America. > The "Korean invasion" of the late 60s-80s produced more "Masters" than >a locust storm! Make money and print Dan certificates was the order of the >day. The steady dilution of the purity of all martial arts started then >and it continues today. Take a quart of pure orange juice and mix it with >a quart of water. Now you have 2 quarts of orange juice, right? Well, if >you never had orange juice and you were thirsty you would be none the >wiser. Keep diluting and you will have an orange colored drink. > > I have seen Black Belts of all Dan ranks who were sub standard based >upon the values of "yesterday's standards" and more and more of them exist >today (see orange juice story above). The reason is that we have no >control over the martial arts as do other sports and industries. The >martial arts opened the door to those who would be "Masters, Grandmasters >and yes even Great Grandmasters"...many of whom whose only talent was >knowing how to fleece unsuspecting young people and adults who wanted to >"belong" to something so they could feel a sense of importance and self >worth. These walking cash registers don't teach martial arts they teach >materialism and profiteering. This is not to say that some amongst us who >teach martial arts as a livelihood are not entitled to compensation as that >is part of The American Dream. These Instructors are simply trying to >combine earning a good living with doing what they love the most...teaching >their particular martial art! > > Then, you became an assistant instructor at First Dan, Instructor at >Second Dan then sanctioned at Third Dan to open your own school in order to >pass the art on to others. Masters were considered to be Fourth and Fifth >Dan depending on their systems and styles. Dan rank from Sixth and above >were mostly ceremonial and had to do with assuming regional >responsibilities in proliferating the art. > > How long does it take to earn a First Dan? Well, how hard do you >train...How Often? How good is your Instructor? How long does it take to >earn a medical degree? I am not being judge mental here but I do believe it >is mostly up to the White Belt Student and his Third Dan or above >Instructor....how well they communicate and how well BOTH apply and commit >themselves. > > Guess I am back full circle to Master Ray Terry's comment - "Caveat >emptor". > >Fraternally, >Michael A. Atamian >Doju/Choson Do >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:53:28 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, >From: Michael Atamian [mailto:maakaa@earthlink.net] > I earned my First Dan in Paju-ri and Munsan-ni, South Korea in 1958 after 17 months of training, I am curious what rank your instructor was in Munsan back in 1957 when you started? I started my training in the martial arts in 1962 (13 years old) in Judo and then in 1965 started Chung Do Kwan. I was in Korea from 1969-1970 (Osan Air Force Base) I went as a 1st dan after 3.5 years of training to get to that rank. My instructor in the US was a 5th dan from Korea, and was under Son Duk Son (9th dan and 2nd headmaster of Chung Do Kwan). When I started training in TKD, 1965, the art was only 21 years old. I wonder at times if people ever look at the time in grade requirements that we currently have and compare them to the rank our instructors have or had when we started practicing. I know this post is a bit long, and I apologize for the length, if I knew of a way to shorten the length I would have. In Korea when I was there this is what time in grade looked like: 9th kup to 1st dan = 1 years 1st dan to 2nd dan = 1 years subtotal = 2 2nd dan to 3rd dan = 2 years subtotal = 4 3rd dan to 4th dan = 3 years subtotal = 7 4th dan to 5th dan = 4 years subtotal = 11 5th dan to 6th dan = 5 years subtotal = 16 6th dan to 7th dan = 6 years subtotal = 22 7th dan to 8th dan = 7 years subtotal = 29 8th dan to 9th dan = 8 years subtotal = 37 I was told that once you pass your 5th dan and take a Kukkiwon coaching/teaching course you would get your 6th dan and there was no time requirement on going from 5th to 6th. So the years that I list after 5th and based on the previous time in grade. I was no where near getting to that rank when I was there so I did not pay much attention to the requirements past 3rd dan. The way most people in the US look at rank you will have a minimum of the following time in grade: 9th kup to 1st dan = 3 years 1st dan to 2nd dan = 2 years subtotal = 5 2nd dan to 3rd dan = 3 years subtotal = 8 3rd dan to 4th dan = 4 years subtotal = 12 4th dan to 5th dan = 5 years subtotal = 17 5th dan to 6th dan = 6 years subtotal = 23 6th dan to 7th dan = 7 years subtotal = 30 7th dan to 8th dan = 8 years subtotal = 38 8th dan to 9th dan = 9 years subtotal = 47 If you go to a bit more conservative amount of time you would get: 9th kup to 1st dan = 4 years 1st dan to 2nd dan = 3 years subtotal = 7 2nd dan to 3rd dan = 4 years subtotal = 11 3rd dan to 4th dan = 5 years subtotal = 16 4th dan to 5th dan = 6 years subtotal = 22 5th dan to 6th dan = 7 years subtotal = 29 6th dan to 7th dan = 8 years subtotal = 37 7th dan to 8th dan = 9 years subtotal = 46 8th dan to 9th dan = 10 years subtotal = 56 So if we have folks starting as 9th kup, day one 1945 you would have: Korean US US conservative 1945 1946 1st dan 1947 2nd dan 1948 1st dan 1st dan 1949 3rd dan 1950 2nd dan 1951 2nd dan 1952 4th dan 1953 3rd dan 1954 1955 3rd dan 1956 5th dan 1957 4th dan 1958 1959 1960 4th dan 1961 6th dan 1962 5th dan 1963 1970 1971 1972 5th dan 1973 7th dan 1974 6th dan 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 8th dan 6th dan 1980 1981 7th dan 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 7th dan 1988 9th dan 1989 8th dan 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 8th dan 1997 1998 9th dan 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 9th dan So following the guide lines many of us follow we would not have had a 9th dan before 1988, 1998, or 2006 depending on which set of requirements you would follow. OK - let's say for argument that we had *ONE* individual in each Kwan who was a 9th dan as the head of the organization. Then how did we get so many Korean national champions, 7th, 8th, and 9th dan by the 1970's? To say the least time in grade is very VERY *VERY* subjective. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:10:34 -0700 From: "Josette LeBlanc" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Everyone, thank you for such a great discussion. I have learned a lot from all of you. It is great to get everyone's perspective on what a "black belt" means. I've come to the conclusion that it ultimately means nothing. "Black belt" is just a name; a rank. The true goal of a martial artist is to see beyond this rank. To see that it is the art itself which is the goal. It is our humanity that brings the art's true nature to light. It is our human ability, desire, physicality and subconsciousness which makes it possible to see this art in all its glory. Possibly, the sign of a true martial artist, regardless off rank, is to see that you can never attain this art. All you can do is to continue learning. Respect the art and those who bring it to you. Not the color of the object around ones waist. Josette On 28/06/06, Michael Atamian wrote: > > I wasn't going to add my comments to this subject but since the replies > were all over the board I felt duty bound to add to the discussion. > > I earned my First Dan in Paju-ri and Munsan-ni, South Korea in 1958 > after 17 months of training, 5 nights a week and occasional weekends inside > a mud hut and outside on the ground. We had little else to do there just > south of the DMZ (apart from chasing the village girls and drinking 3.2beer) and Korea at that time looked a lot like Afghanistan does now. > Training was difficult and the standards were very high, something we > later coined a term for called "Yesterday's Standards". We were told then > that a First Dan meant you were a "master of the basics" with a lifetime to > learn and teach. First Dans did not teach - they assisted as > "ukes". Instructors then taught from the heart, with no regard for > compensation. I washed the Master's dobok and did chores which most of you > would now regard as demeaning and insulting. Respect has to be earned...it > is never "assumed"...and it is always a two way proposition. > > When I returned to America, I served the rest of my military time in > Alabama and went home to Rhode Island. There were only Jiu jutsu, Judo and > Aikido schools (mostly) and one Uechi-ryu school...all legitimate and all > Japanese styles. The highest rank at that time was Professor Milton Gowdey, > Fourth Dan in Aiki-jutsu. Within five years hundreds of schools popped up > and we were flooded with more wannabees than we could handle and "commercial > karate" arrived big time, but I later found that this happened all over > America. > The "Korean invasion" of the late 60s-80s produced more "Masters" than > a locust storm! Make money and print Dan certificates was the order of the > day. The steady dilution of the purity of all martial arts started then and > it continues today. Take a quart of pure orange juice and mix it with a > quart of water. Now you have 2 quarts of orange juice, right? Well, if you > never had orange juice and you were thirsty you would be none the > wiser. Keep diluting and you will have an orange colored drink. > > I have seen Black Belts of all Dan ranks who were sub standard based > upon the values of "yesterday's standards" and more and more of them exist > today (see orange juice story above). The reason is that we have no control > over the martial arts as do other sports and industries. The martial arts > opened the door to those who would be "Masters, Grandmasters and yes even > Great Grandmasters"...many of whom whose only talent was knowing how to > fleece unsuspecting young people and adults who wanted to "belong" to > something so they could feel a sense of importance and self worth. These > walking cash registers don't teach martial arts they teach materialism and > profiteering. This is not to say that some amongst us who teach martial > arts as a livelihood are not entitled to compensation as that is part of The > American Dream. These Instructors are simply trying to combine earning a > good living with doing what they love the most...teaching their particular > martial art! > > Then, you became an assistant instructor at First Dan, Instructor at > Second Dan then sanctioned at Third Dan to open your own school in order to > pass the art on to others. Masters were considered to be Fourth and Fifth > Dan depending on their systems and styles. Dan rank from Sixth and above > were mostly ceremonial and had to do with assuming regional responsibilities > in proliferating the art. > > How long does it take to earn a First Dan? Well, how hard do you > train...How Often? How good is your Instructor? How long does it take to > earn a medical degree? I am not being judge mental here but I do believe it > is mostly up to the White Belt Student and his Third Dan or above > Instructor....how well they communicate and how well BOTH apply and commit > themselves. > > Guess I am back full circle to Master Ray Terry's comment - "Caveat > emptor". > > Fraternally, > Michael A. Atamian > Doju/Choson Do > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest