Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:24 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #279 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re:Time in rank (Josette LeBlanc) 2. Feedback on Time in Rank Comments (Michael Atamian) 3. RE: Amerinational (Central WI Professional Fitness Services LLC) 4. Re: Time In Rank (Samurai Latino) 5. Re: Fatworth (Beungood8@aol.com) 6. RE: Re:Time in rank (Rick Clark) 7. Joint Hapkido (Yu Shin Kwan) Seminar/Workshop (Chosondo@aol.com) 8. Hackworth??? (Mike Donahoo) 9. Re: Time in rank (tim walker) 10. Kukkiwon certificate update (Ray) 11. Dan Ranks in a short time frame (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 12. Re: Hackworth??? (Ray) 13. Re: Dan Ranks in a short time frame (Steven Berkowitz) 14. Re: Hackworth??? (Steven Berkowitz) 15. Re: aquiring dan rank (ryanmcpherson@bellsouth.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:44:07 -0700 From: "Josette LeBlanc" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Time in rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Professor Clark, I really enjoyed the way you explained the history of ranks in the US. It really makes sense in terms of the reasons why Masters expect more time from their students. I have looked at your website briefly. I expect to learn much here in the near future. Sincerely, Josette On 27/06/06, Rick Clark wrote: > > In Japan, Korea, and Okinawa it is not unusual to get your 1st dan in > one year, and it's been this way for years. Simply ask anyone who has > been in the military and trained over there. In the US and Europe it's > more like 3 to 5 years. > > Please note my opinion is for the US and not Europe or the UK. So, I > believe the time in grade we have here in the US is based on events that > go back to the 50's and 60's. Back then it was rare to see someone who > was a 5th dan or higher. I believe most of the non oriental black belts > who started teaching after getting their rank while they were in the US > military stationed overseas. They got their rank in a year, and perhaps > they stayed several years more and made 2nd or 3rd dan. But I suspect > most were 1st dan. Once they started to teach they could not promote to > 1st dan because they were that rank and so students would stay in lower > ranks for an extended time. Once the instructor was able to move up in > rank they could then promote their students to 1st dan. As they then > taught, they would want their students to spend as much time in grade as > they did, why should they get their rank faster than their instructor? > So WE set up a system where WE would want our students to have an > extended period of time before they would be able to test for 1st dan. > Now we expect that everyone will take at least 3 to 5 years for 1st dan. > > Look back in time and by the standards we are currently setting to get > to 9th dan it should take someone 35 to 40 years. > > But wait a minute we had guys who were "grand masters" "founders" of Tae > Kwon Do who were 7th, 8th, or 9th dan back in the 60's and that was a > bit over 15 to 24 years (since 1945). You know as well as I do that > there was a boat load of 8th and 9th dan's by 1970 and that was only 25 > years since 1945. > > So - it is obvious that there is a different standard - and > unfortunately many times this higher standard is imposed by ourselves. > > Personally I think 1 year is a bit quick, but 3 to 5 is too long. Split > the difference and 1.5 years to 2 is probably more reasonable if someone > practices 3 to 4 times a week for at least one hour. We have set up an > expectation that a 1st dan is an expert rather than simply a student who > has the basic skill to begin to learn. > > Way back in the 60's there was an article in Black Belt magazine (I > would like to find it again) that wrote about a Ju-Jitsu school in Japan > who would put a black belt on a person the first day they walked in the > Dojo (Dochang) saying something like "now that that is out of the way - > practice hard". I rather like that attitude. > > > Rick Clark "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good > society holds exactly the same opinion." Oscar Wilde > > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Michael Atamian" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:12:35 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Feedback on Time in Rank Comments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First and foremost: I wish to thank Master Tomlinson for his brief yet very positive feedback. Second, to Rick Clark: My Instructor was the equivalent of Third Dan, but back then he was considered Senior Instructor. He became the Third Successor to The Art of Choson Do. His Grandfather was the equivalent of a Ninth Dan and was the Second Successor of the art at that time. Regarding how we got so many Korean National Champions so soon....good taste and manners prohibit me from telling you publicly how I feel about that. Finally, and by no means least...to Josette: You are starting to sound like a Black Belt already. At age 69 I am still learning and the best part of all is sharing what you have learned with others. Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do Support our Armed Forces - The World's Best! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Central WI Professional Fitness Services LLC" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Amerinational Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a heads up to all who are currently using Amerinational. They have recently changed many of their policies, making it almost impossible to make changes to, or cancel student agreements without costing the school owner a lot of extra fees. We have also not been able to get our account rep. changed despite repeated requests on the phone and by fax. We feel we have been treated very poorly by them over the past few months. A quick check with the BBB shows they have a poor rating and many unresolved complaints. FWIW......Dave --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:57:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Samurai Latino Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very well said, sir! Having done my training in Korea as well (82-83 & 96-97), I can relate. Sincerely, Rafael Amill Michael Atamian wrote: I wasn't going to add my comments to this subject but since the replies were all over the board I felt duty bound to add to the discussion. I earned my First Dan in Paju-ri and Munsan-ni, South Korea in 1958 after 17 months of training, 5 nights a week and occasional weekends inside a mud hut and outside on the ground. We had little else to do there just south of the DMZ (apart from chasing the village girls and drinking 3.2 beer) and Korea at that time looked a lot like Afghanistan does now. Training was difficult and the standards were very high, something we later coined a term for called "Yesterday's Standards". We were told then that a First Dan meant you were a "master of the basics" with a lifetime to learn and teach. First Dans did not teach - they assisted as "ukes". Instructors then taught from the heart, with no regard for compensation. I washed the Master's dobok and did chores which most of you would now regard as demeaning and insulting. Respect has to be earned...it is never "assumed"...and it is always a two way proposition. When I returned to America, I served the rest of my military time in Alabama and went home to Rhode Island. There were only Jiu jutsu, Judo and Aikido schools (mostly) and one Uechi-ryu school...all legitimate and all Japanese styles. The highest rank at that time was Professor Milton Gowdey, Fourth Dan in Aiki-jutsu. Within five years hundreds of schools popped up and we were flooded with more wannabees than we could handle and "commercial karate" arrived big time, but I later found that this happened all over America. The "Korean invasion" of the late 60s-80s produced more "Masters" than a locust storm! Make money and print Dan certificates was the order of the day. The steady dilution of the purity of all martial arts started then and it continues today. Take a quart of pure orange juice and mix it with a quart of water. Now you have 2 quarts of orange juice, right? Well, if you never had orange juice and you were thirsty you would be none the wiser. Keep diluting and you will have an orange colored drink. I have seen Black Belts of all Dan ranks who were sub standard based upon the values of "yesterday's standards" and more and more of them exist today (see orange juice story above). The reason is that we have no control over the martial arts as do other sports and industries. The martial arts opened the door to those who would be "Masters, Grandmasters and yes even Great Grandmasters"...many of whom whose only talent was knowing how to fleece unsuspecting young people and adults who wanted to "belong" to something so they could feel a sense of importance and self worth. These walking cash registers don't teach martial arts they teach materialism and profiteering. This is not to say that some amongst us who teach martial arts as a livelihood are not entitled to compensation as that is part of The American Dream. These Instructors are simply trying to combine earning a good living with doing what they love the most...teaching their particular martial art! Then, you became an assistant instructor at First Dan, Instructor at Second Dan then sanctioned at Third Dan to open your own school in order to pass the art on to others. Masters were considered to be Fourth and Fifth Dan depending on their systems and styles. Dan rank from Sixth and above were mostly ceremonial and had to do with assuming regional responsibilities in proliferating the art. How long does it take to earn a First Dan? Well, how hard do you train...How Often? How good is your Instructor? How long does it take to earn a medical degree? I am not being judge mental here but I do believe it is mostly up to the White Belt Student and his Third Dan or above Instructor....how well they communicate and how well BOTH apply and commit themselves. Guess I am back full circle to Master Ray Terry's comment - "Caveat emptor". Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:21:01 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fatworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 6/28/2006 7:20:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hackworth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Easy for you to say sine your not a customer of AmeriNational, I wonder if you would feel the same if that was the case. I for one do not want him handling my schools account, as a customer I can cancel or move my account if I find that he can access my files. When I go down to FL in Nov. I wonder if he will have the same tone of voice in a past email towards me. Before it got really bad between my instructor and that chubby Pseudo master,martial artist wanna be I was sent an e-mail by him where he made a remark about my haircut (Marine High and tight) a veiled way of letting me know he had access to my KHF application. I agree with Master Lugo of not letting him near any important school information. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:25:15 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Time in rank To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Josette, >Professor Clark, Please use Rick, >I really enjoyed the way you explained the history of ranks in the US. It really makes sense in terms of the reasons why >Masters expect more time from their students. Just remember it's the way I see things and it may not be the reality of how things developed - just my perspective so take it with a grain of salt. >I have looked at your website briefly. I expect to learn much here in the near future. Thanks - I hope it can be of some interest to you and others. Rick > >Sincerely, >Josette --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Chosondo@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:07:02 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Joint Hapkido (Yu Shin Kwan) Seminar/Workshop Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ladies and Gentlemen, I beg your indulgence in informing DDers of a joint Hapkido (Yun Shin Kwan) I will be conducting on Saturday, July 29 at the Raleigh Institute of Martial Arts, Raleigh, North Carolina. Three member schools (Raleigh Institute of Martial Arts, Apex Yong Mu Do (Hapkido) Program, and Apex Kido Kwan) of the International Korean Martial Arts Federation (IKMAF) are hosting this event. I invite all DDers to join us. The focus of the workshop/seminar will be the sword's (Gum) relationship to the skills of Hapkido. For information please contact the following masters: Master Richard Lemaster, Apex Yong Mu Do (Hapkido Program): 919-387-3413 Master Chris Tricoli, Raleigh Inst. Of Martial Arts: 919-828-4447 Mr. Michael Macario, Apex Kido Kwan: 919-387-6626 Thank you and I hope to see some of you there. Best Regards, Ian A. Cyrus, 9th Dan,Headmaster International Korean Martial Arts Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057, www.chosondo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:48:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hackworth??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net sir, i have a question about this 'Hackworth' and whatever he did. our school uses amernational, and i deal with them daily. obviously he has offended several people on this listing. will you enlighten me as to what happened. Mike Donahoo --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:02:27 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Time in rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Josette: A wise man once told me that a black belt was just an attendance award. I believe the direct quote was (use a Mississippi accent, please), "the difference between a white belt and a black belt is that the black belt kept coming to class." Don't think it means nothing. Mine means a lot...to me. Mine shouldn't mean a whole lot to you. Just keep coming to class. Yours, timo "I LOVE this game!" --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon certificate update Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... To all promoting instructors, who have submitted Dan Applications April-May of 2006. I have just heard from Kukkiwon as of Tuesday, June 27, 2006. Kukkiwon has stated that all of the May certificates are in the mail to USA Taekwondo. The USA Taekwondo offices will probably receive the certificates while I am away at the Junior Olympic Championships in Atlanta, GA. As soon as I return from Junior's on the 10th of July I will be mailing all of the certificates to the instructors. Please let me know, if you have any questions. Michelle M George USA Taekwondo Dan Office 1 Olympic Plaza, Suite 104-C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 (719) 866-4632 phone (719) 866-4642 fax www.usa-taekwondo.us 2006 Schedule of Events Junior Olympics July 6-9, 2006 Atlanta, GA Senior Nationals November 3-5, 2006 Cleveland, OH --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:48:09 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Ranks in a short time frame Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been lurking around for a while but had to post on the subject of getting dan rank in a year. It took me about five years to get my cho dan rank, and that has held true for my students also, however the highest ranking Black Belt instructor I know HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim got his Black Belt in 1 and 1/2 years. I would say his rank is not in question, but as I understand it the training in Korea under the late Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim during the early 1950's was very intense. The training session were long and the I have no problem believing Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim did not just give out rank in those days. To sum it up I think it is possible, however the requirements to achieve such a goal are rarely met. Today in people are money hungry and willing to sell you what ever rank you want. So I would be watchfull of someone claiming to have a 1 year dan rank, but I know how hard I trained to make dan and it still took me 5 years training 5 days per week sometimes 3 hours per day. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth??? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > i have a question about this 'Hackworth' and whatever he did. our school > uses amernational, and i deal with them daily. obviously he has offended > several people on this listing. will you enlighten me as to what happened. Offended several people not just on this list, but all across the US, Canada and Korea. There is much to say about this grandmaster wannabe, but I would rather it be said to you privately. Hopefully that is ok with you. So folks, please let mike_gregg_d@yahoo.com know via direct email all about Mister Hackworth. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dan Ranks in a short time frame Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Undoubtedly, living in the home of a master/founder adds a bit of "daily spice" to your life....training at age 1, whether you know it or not. My 12 year old accuses me all the time of "teaching" him at home. The Japanese have the "uchi-deshi" program, a live-in student (spell that s-l-a-v-e, no doubt), who advances quickly in comparison to the three times a weekers. be blessed Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:48 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Ranks in a short time frame > I have been lurking around for a while but had to post on the subject of > getting dan rank in a year. It took me about five years to get my cho dan > rank, and that has held true for my students also, however the highest ranking > Black Belt instructor I know HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim got his Black Belt in 1 > and 1/2 years. I would say his rank is not in question, but as I understand it > the training in Korea under the late Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim during the early > 1950's was very intense. The training session were long and the I have no > problem believing Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim did not just give out rank in those > days. > > To sum it up I think it is possible, however the requirements to achieve such > a goal are rarely met. Today in people are money hungry and willing to sell > you what ever rank you want. So I would be watchfull of someone claiming to > have a 1 year dan rank, but I know how hard I trained to make dan and it still > took me 5 years training 5 days per week sometimes 3 hours per day. > > JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.5/377 - Release Date: 6/27/2006 --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth??? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:22:36 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net share to data with me, also. No slander, just facts please. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hackworth??? > > i have a question about this 'Hackworth' and whatever he did. our school > > uses amernational, and i deal with them daily. obviously he has offended > > several people on this listing. will you enlighten me as to what happened. > > Offended several people not just on this list, but all across the US, Canada > and Korea. > > There is much to say about this grandmaster wannabe, but I would rather it > be said to you privately. Hopefully that is ok with you. > > > So folks, please let mike_gregg_d@yahoo.com know via direct email all about > Mister Hackworth. > > > Thanks. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.5/377 - Release Date: 6/27/2006 --__--__-- Message: 15 From: To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] aquiring dan rank Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:59:52 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, I mostly read the posts to this list, and just take what I can from them without replying. But I felt I had to give this one a shot. I've read all the replies and I think some people get really confused about what a black belt means. Especially those who are not currently involved in martial arts, or just getting started. Some look at black belts as knowing all there is, but in reality, a black belt signifies that you have mastered the basic movements of that art. For instance, in TKD a black belt should have perfect stances. You should be able to perform all the forms you have learned since day one. Your front kick, side kick, back kick, roundhouse, and spinning kick should all be performed with proper technique. Now, that being said, lets get a bit more "real world". In most schools it will take you 3 years to achieve BB. Depending on age, and as some have said, natural ability..Some BB's will perform said basic functions more fluently, and gracefully than others. Its not so much that the person with the black belt is as I have heard some say before, "A white belt that kept comming to class", its that the BB is "A white belt that never gave up". Because above all things that a BB signifies is... a BB is a role model for lower belt students. You don't just come to class, but you give it your best every class. You never give up. I'm not a BB yet, but in my school that is what stands out most about our BBs. They try harder, go longer, and push themselves further every class and as I have found with my training, these qualities seem to carry over into everyday life. On the job, out to eat, and even on vacation. You are a BB. A senior representitive of your martial art, and most importantly, your school and fellow students. Ryan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:20 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] aquiring dan rank > In my school, it normally takes approx. 4 years to reach BB status. > However, I have seen BBs who trained 4 or more years and are still > terrible. I have trained with students that have trained a year and had > understanding of techniques and fighting abilities equal to most BBs. I > believe that some people just have natural abilities that enable them to > perform and catch on quicker than others. There are many students who > train for years that will never perform as great as others. > I think if someone has natural talent and a willingness to practice they > could possibly rank in a year or so but, not in my class or most of the > instructor's classes that I know of. > In Japan, 1st, 2nd and 3rd dans are considered competitors and only > asistant instructors or advanced students at 4th and 5th and then Teacher > at 6th dan. I believe that in Korea, Japan etc... they don't put as much > demand in quanity or quality of techniques as we do here in the US at > lower ranks. Everyone here thinks if you attain a BB, you are a master, so > most instructors put a hugh standard on the 1st dan rank, this is why it > takes so long over here to reach dan rank than in Korea or Japan. Just my > two cents. > Shihan mike > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and > IM. All on demand. Always Free. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest