Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:07:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #283 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. list slow or down (Ray) 2. Re: Good Article on Violence (Tom) 3. health/liability insurance for school owners (Mark Gajdostik) 4. RE: Time in rank give me a break! (Mark Seidel) 5. Mike Tomlinson (J.R. West) 6. Re: Ban the UFC (Lila Ralston) 7. Re: (2) [The_Dojang] Ban the UFC (Jon Payne) 8. RE: Master Benko (Kevin F. Donohue) 9. Certificates with incorrect data (dugy01) 10. Re: Certificates with incorrect data (Ray) 11. Ban the UFC (t.metzner1) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] list slow or down Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The_Dojang will be down or slow for the next several days as I journey out of town. Just fyi... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:54:44 -0400 From: Tom To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Good Article on Violence Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for posting this article. I have read it before and it says so much. Whenever I see Police, Soldiers, Marines, etc I think sheep dog now. michael tomlinson wrote: > I thought this might be appropriate to our discussions as of > lately...what do you all think about this big juicy nugget????? > Michael Tomlinson > > > On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman > > > By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing." > > > Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so > because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy > things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our > time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, > persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: > What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living > for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval > Academy November 24, 1997 > > > One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: > > > "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, > productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This > is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and > the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this > means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt > one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims > of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an > all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 > million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of > violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given > year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat > offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less > than two million. > > > Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: > We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is > still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent > people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident > or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. > > > I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the > pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it > will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without > its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are > like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow > into something wonderful? For now, though, they need warriors to > protect them from the predators. > > > "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves > feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out > there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. > There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. > The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a > sheep. There is no safety in denial. > > > "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to > protect the flock and confront the wolf." > > > If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive > citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy > for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive > sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a > deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, > a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can > walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and > walk out unscathed > > > Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, > wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is > what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil > in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is > why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and > fire exits throughout their kids' schools. > > > But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police > officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times > more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than > fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is > denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just > too hard, and so they chose the path of denial. > > > The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the > wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, > though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm > the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little > lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other > way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as > ours. > > > Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that > there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell > them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready > in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep > would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint > himself white, and go, "Baa." > > > Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to > hide behind one lonely sheepdog. > > The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough > high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not > have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; > they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under > attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, > the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off > of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when > the wolf is at the door. > > > Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded > hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt > differently about their law enforcement officers and military > personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? > > > Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a > sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a > sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the > perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the > night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young > sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little > older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed > right along with the young ones. > > > Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep > pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. > After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, > most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those > planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could > have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a > difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have > truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You > want to be able to make a difference. > > > There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but > he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able > to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of > the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with > individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for > serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing > law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they > specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive > behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats > do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able > to protect itself. > > > Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be > genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most > people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that > more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. > > > Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was > honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, > was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell > phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. > When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used > as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's > roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers > to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation > occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. > -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, > ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground. > > > There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible > evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke > > Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of > police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the > sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and > so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. > As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a > conscious, moral decision. > > > If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, > but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you > and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there > to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the > sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, > safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the > warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision > every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that > toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door. > > > For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are > well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt > holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some > form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police > officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there > is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears > to massacre you and your loved ones. > > > I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the > break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in > church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun > in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me > about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas > in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into > the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that > officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had > been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was > throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in > the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live > with yourself after that?" > > > Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer > was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and > would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged > and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags > in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire > sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the > fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must > be safeguards against them. > > Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often > their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog > quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to > live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had > to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?" > > > It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically > destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is > counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and > horror when the wolf shows up. > > > Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth > when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you > didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a > strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do > physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear > helplessness and horror at your moment of truth. > > > Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 > book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to > terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, > but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers > think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced > with new violence is all the more unsettling." > > Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in > small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth > on some level. > > > And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of > his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are > warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step > outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that > the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a > lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry > a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, > and say this to yourself... > > > "Baa." > > > This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no > dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a > matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, > head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. > Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live > somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a > step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps > toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors > started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move > up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to > which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and > psychologically at your moment of truth. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Mark Gajdostik" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:02:53 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] health/liability insurance for school owners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, For those of you who teach/own schools full time, what insurance group do you use for, and how much does it cost for: --Health coverage --School liability insurance Thanks, Mark. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Time in rank give me a break! Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This thread is starting to make me ill; so if a student comes to every class, 6 days a week they could be a Master in let's say 4 years. They no all of the forms, can break four boards, spar well and beat up 5 guys in a bar. Now where is the time developing the mind and spirit now that we rushed the body? Master Mark Seidel The Midtown Academy Martial Arts School Special Needs and Exceptional Child Specialist -----Original Message----- From: Robert Martin [mailto:kickerfour1999@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:19 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Time in rank I know I'm late on the time in rank question. I've enjoyed reading everyone's response. I found the following interesting and thought I would share it. Major General Choi Hong Hi published this in his encyclopedia of Teakwon-Do. Criteria for Grade and Degree: For first degree black belt 1 1/2 hour per day, three days a week -- 30 months 1 1/2 hour per day, six days per week -- 18 months 4 hours per day, six day per week -- 12 months 1st to 2nd Dan -- 1.5 years 2nd to 3rd Dan -- 2 years 3rd to 4th Dan -- 3 years 4th to 5th Dan -- 4 years 5th to 6th Dan -- 5 years 6th to 7th Dan -- 6 years 7th to 8th Dan -- 7 years If a person trains hard, does the stuff, understands what they are doing, and can demonstrate it -- 1 year to 1st Dan isn't out of the question. A big part of the question is what sort of ability the student has and what kind of shape they are in. Ultimately, a person could obtain 7th Dan in the ITF in under 25 years if they worked hard. Robert Martin V Dan, USTF -- ---------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 6632 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:51:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mike Tomlinson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I'm not a big violence monger and my last post was kind of tough and cheek but I really don't want to hold hands around the campfire and sing cumbuyya with a bunch of tree huggers either....that is unless I've just shot a big buck and we are grilling that bad boy and fixin to get our protein on!!" In the immortal words of the Greek philosopher Paul Simon...."Still crazy after all these years"...J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Lila Ralston" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:56:32 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ban the UFC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can only say that the one UFC fighter I know personally, Forrest Griffin, is a well-spoken, well-educated, witty gentleman with a great sense of humor and quite high standards of sportsmanship. He was a police officer before he turned pro fighter. I have no doubt at all he could take me apart with one hand. I also have no fear at all that he would want to. --Lila Ralston, Live Oak Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jon Payne" To: "The_Dojang" Subject: Re: (2) [The_Dojang] Ban the UFC Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:58:08 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Metzner, Sir, it is wrong to imply the fighters are not well educated. I also have not heard of many of them getting into trouble outside the ring/octagon. Several of my co-workers train in BJJ and I find them to be very professional. I also don't think it's right to compare a MMA fighter to a mental patient. All together sir, I fully disagree with your post. Generalizations can be very damaging, if you don't like or appreciate MMA, then by all means don't watch or support it. I would also appreciate you banning MMA from your life and not mine. You see I love MMA, guns, American Pit Bull Terriers, and the knowledge that I'm not politically correct. I have fought and served for my freedom and don't think of banning much of anything very often. In my line of work generalizations can get you hurt or cost you your livelihood. Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:14:25 -0400 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master Benko To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net According to Master Benko's Website: "Grand Master James S. Benko began learning the Korean mu do (martial arts) of Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Yu Sool in 1959 from Ki Jun Lee. Grand Master Lee was one of the first Korean master instructors to come to America, in 1957, and introduce these arts in the United States. While in the military Grand Master Benko became a member of the American Special Forces, Green Berets. He spent three tours of combat duty in Viet Nam. While serving in Viet Nam, he worked with the famous Korean "White Horse" and "Tiger" divisions, who were known for their bravery and aggressiveness in combat. While serving in Viet Nam, Grand Master Benko taught Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and other Korean mu do (martial arts) to American and Vietnamese military personnel, police, and other Green Berets. GM Benko In Viet Nam As a Green Beret, he often worked closely with the Vietnamese troops and people, training them in the use of weapons (see photo to left), village defense, and hand-to-hand combat. It was in Viet Nam that he met two Korean martial arts masters who would change the course of his life, Grand Master Yang Hyee and Grand Master Won Soo Kim. All three became life-long friends who dedicated their lives to studying and teaching the martial arts. Won Soo Kim was the first assistant instructor of the founder of hapkido, Choi Yong Sul. Grand Master Kim continued to teach Grand Master Benko, hapkido as well as Korean weapons including the Korean "gum" (sword)." He also goes on to explain that he formed the following organizations: * World Shim Duk Kwan Hapkido AssociationT founded 1970. * International Hapkido FederationT founded 1971. J.R., its a bit strange that he would not mention Hapkido in a 1984 article when he had been studying Hapkido and Yu Sool since 1959; as well as leading two major organizations dedicated to Hapkido for 13 to 14 years before that article was circulated. Did you ever hear about or meet these Korean Masters during your time in Vietnam? Kevin F. Donohue KHF New York -----Original Message----- From: JR West [mailto:hapkido@netdoor.com] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:29 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Benko I have never met Master Benko, but I have an article written by him in 1984 with regards to his history and training, and he never mentions the word "hapkido".......J. R. West www.hapkido.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "dugy01" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:38:21 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Certificates with incorrect data Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello group, Well, I broke my hand about 8 months ago, and it's healed quickly enough where I returned about 2 months ago and am continuing onward with the martial arts that I enjoy learning..... I have recently earned the rank of Purple belt working on my blue belt (5 th gup) in Combat Hapkido. Today I received my Purple Belt certificate, which is 6th gup.. I was framing it and finished putting the 4 plaques on the wall when I realized that my last 2 certificates, the purple and green, were both typed in with the wrong GUP. The green belt read 6th gup (instead of 7th) and the Purple belt was 5th gup instead of 6th.. This is very discouraging because I feel I earned and paid for these ranks and this shows sloppy management. Also my name is spelled wrong on all 4 certificates. I have written my instructor with as much anger as I could muster as I am truly upset. I suppose now, I need to wait to have new certificates issued with the right gups and my name spelled correctly. I do not intend to pay for this mishap so don't you all agree that I should be reissued all new certificates with the right data on them at NO CHARGE? Has this happened before and how was this issue resolved. Thanks. DougM 6th Gup Combat Hapkido 9th Kyu Ninjitsu --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Certificates with incorrect data To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have written my instructor with as much anger as I could muster as I am > truly upset. I suppose now, I need to wait to have new certificates issued > with the right gups and my name spelled correctly. ??? You wrote to your instructor? At the gup level you don't see your instructor face-2-face every day you attend class? ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "t.metzner1" To: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:50:33 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ban the UFC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I seem to have stirred up some vitriole with my last posting. I don't feel the need to go back and forth on this so this will be my last words on the subject. Apologies for any hard feelings. First I was accused of generalizing. Guilty as charged. Nothing wrong with generalizing, we all do it every day. Examples - "If you want good barbecue, go to North Carolina." "All our jobs are being sent to India". "People from Texas are very friendly". My opinions of UFC fighters are also generalizations based primarily on what I have seen on TV and what I observed of human nature. Second, someone said "it has been proven throughout history that might makes right". What has been demonstrated throughout history is that might imposes will. That doesn't make it right. If so, why do we send our diplomats before we send our soldiers? Which leads to my point for the purpose of martial arts - self defense. To ensure that the physically strong can't impose their will upon the weak. The founder of Taekwondo, General Choi Hong Hi, was barely 5 feet tall and 110 pounds. He cited as his motivation to learn martial arts his desire to protect himself from a much larger man who had threatened to beat him. My point about UFC is that it promotes violence. If, in the course of my training, I accidently or through my own carelessness, hurt someone, I feel remorse and apologize. I want to ensure that my training partner is OK. I find this is true for most martial artists I have trained with. Yet in UFC, the goal is to knock your opponent senseless at which point you feel happy, and are cheered by an audience and respected by the other UFC fighters. Something wrong here in my opinion. Tom Metzner --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest