Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:24:39 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #294 - 18 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: stumbled across this (Josette LeBlanc) 2. Re: martial arts-a calling for a vow of poverty (sidtkd@aol.com) 3. True Masters of the Arts (Michael Atamian) 4. Good question (Bob Banham) 5. Re: Good question (tim walker) 6. Good question (Stovall, Craig) 7. GM West update (Ray) 8. RE: Re: Good question (Joseph Cheavens) 9. RE: stumbled across this (Joseph Cheavens) 10. Re: Good question (Steven Berkowitz) 11. Re: Good question (Jye nigma) 12. Re: Re: martial arts-a calling for a vow of poverty (Jye nigma) 13. Re: stumbled across this (Jye nigma) 14. Teaching for profit & the closed minded. (Mark Gajdostik) 15. I regret to say (Joseph Cheavens) 16. Unbreakable Umbrella (aburrese@aol.com) 17. Re: True Masters of the Arts (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 16:37:24 +0900 From: "Josette LeBlanc" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] stumbled across this Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, Thank you so much for sending this website. I am in Daegu, South Korea teaching English and trying to learn Korean on my own. I have many Korean friends, but we always speak in English. I think you provided me with a fun option for learning Korean at the end of my teaching contract. Thanks again, Josette On 13/07/06, Jye nigma wrote: > > pretty interesting. Wish I could do this right about now: > http://www.wle-korea.com/study-taekwondo-in-korea/taekwondo.html > > > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > rates starting at 1¢/min. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- Message: 2 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 07:15:27 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: martial arts-a calling for a vow of poverty Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now I've heard everything! It's sinful to charge for lessons. So...here's what I'm going to do. I'm opening a grocery store and charging only cost. Better still...all groceries are free. Sound right to you? Where the devil do these idiotic ideas come from? Who works for free???? I'm not concerned with the fee...be concerned that the training is good, you don't get hurt or ripped off. The fee is what the traffic will bear. Shop for the best you can afford like anything else. But once and for all...martial arts is NOT a high spiritual calling! Please let's stop this stupidity and I'll stop jumping from treetop to treetop as I do 50 yard long flying side kicks! Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Atamian" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:11:52 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] True Masters of the Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Gordon: My comment was not meant to offend you or any other Instructor who teaches for profit. It was an attempt to applaud one who does NOT teach for profit...Master Dan. It was also meant to get the attention of the members giving them a forum with which to reply, stating their own perspectives on this issue. Certainly there are many good instructors who teach for profit as the martial arts are their means of earning a living and providing for their families. My comment was not aimed at those of you who teach for profit as I do not have a problem with you doing what you love while feeding your families. It was aimed at those amongst you who teach for enormous profit and who teach for PROFIT FIRST and foremost. Certainly you and all the membership know at least one instructor who is totally $$$ oriented! Then there are those who act like cult leaders and their followers tag along like sheep. This is not the true meaning of the martial arts. In New England, where I am originally from, they still use the term "Kentucky Fried Karate" to identify all the "chain store" schools. I am personally friendly with a number of Masters who teach for profit but their profits are NOT IN EXCESS and their schools are not oriented totally around the almighty dollar. The Koreans themselves brought this concept to America and, Americans being Capitalists, caught on fast! If every Korean who comes here is a Master, Special Forces Instructor, Special Korean Palace Guard, Korean National Champion, etc/. yadda yadda yadda, and manages to use that facade to take money from those who wait in line to give it, then I daresay we should all go to Korea and teach NFL football, Major League Baseball and Billiards. Are we not all champs in these sports ourselves? The point is we would not be teaching we would be MAKING MONEY. I know of those who charge up to $600 for a dan promotion test. Huh? Shouldn't all test fees stop at Second Dan? Isn't that where the Black Belt teaches at his school to earn his place? My apologies to Master Terry for raising this issue again but I could not resist after I read Master Dan's comment about how he struggled, still is, but teaches like the "old masters". Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:27:51 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Good question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, If one of my students challenged me to a 'real' fight, I would hit him with a baseball bat and send him on his way! I would hope that any student I had taught would have a much better attitude than that. Bob --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:23:55 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Good question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd have my wife kick his a$$. <> timo "Yes, Dear" --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:26:17 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Good question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I would show them the error of their ways, and smite them with my dreaded "Shun Goku Satsu" technique (trans: Instant Hell Murder). I learned this from playing endless hours as Akuma in the Street Fighter video game series. SHOSH!!! Craig "You Gotta Hold Something Back Just in Case" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] GM West update Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As several of you already know, GM West recently went in for a 'quick' 30 minute surgery which ended up lasting 3+ hours. Guess they didn't realize how truely warped and messed-up he actually is inside. :) Anyway, he is doing well now and recovering at home. He'll be out of active HKD action for a few more weeks, but is at least alive, well and thinking of which buffet he'll attack first once he is feeling a little better. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Good question Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good answer. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tim walker" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Good question Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:23:55 -0400 I'd have my wife kick his a$$. <> timo "Yes, Dear" _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] stumbled across this Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:57:11 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wonder if there are any post-doc grants that would cover the combined TKD/Hanguk-mal course at Yonsei. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] stumbled across this Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:09:15 -0700 (PDT) pretty interesting. Wish I could do this right about now: http://www.wle-korea.com/study-taekwondo-in-korea/taekwondo.html --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Good question Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 07:15:35 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had one- former miliystu(20 years earlier), had trained sporadically through those years, but spent way too much time in the bottle. Challenged me to a "fight to the death". I said "okay, so long as you're ready to die, have at it". Stood there. He stood there. He continued to stand there. I told him "get out, never come back here again." He left. Died of cancer the next year. I had no idea Gotta respect his foolishness somehow....... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Banham" To: Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:27 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Good question > Jye, > > If one of my students challenged me to a 'real' fight, I would hit him with a > baseball bat and send him on his way! I would hope that any student I had > taught would have a much better attitude than that. > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/386 - Release Date: 7/12/2006 --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 07:42:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Good question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well basically the story goes like this. This instructor had a student who he liked both professionally because that student trained hard and diligently, and so this student was his favorite. So he taught that student things he didn't teach the other students. here's the kicker.... He said one day out of the blue the student invited him to get a bite to eat, so they go out to eat and then they go and train for a little bit. So the teacher sits down to take a break, and the student out of nowhere challenges the teacher to a fight and tells him that he thinks he's better then the teacher martially. This came unprovoked out of nowhere. So they fight the student gets beat down and the teacher leaves doesn't say a word. SO this teacher is really upset about the situation because that guy wasn't just his student, they were supposed to be friends. So the other day he crosses paths with this student who happened to be carrying a couple of books written by that teacher and tells the teacher that he has changed and wanted to him to take him on as a student again. Now that's the whole story. I told the teacher I wouldn't trust that guy, I wouldn't teach him I'd say hi and bye and keep it moving. Jye Bob Banham wrote: Jye, If one of my students challenged me to a 'real' fight, I would hit him with a baseball bat and send him on his way! I would hope that any student I had taught would have a much better attitude than that. Bob _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 07:58:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: martial arts-a calling for a vow of poverty To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I personally don't think it's wrong to charge for training. But I think there are some individuals who care about only money who make things harder for others. In another group there was a parent asking if it was normal practice in a martial art school to have to buy everything (priced higher of course) from that school? so the instructor made it so the students had to wear his uniforms (which is ok) and ONLY the sparring gear with his logo on it which was identical to that from century but marked up alot more. Now my thing is this, A school is a business and should be run as a business, so that means to keep the doors open lights on ac etc there has to be money made. so charge to cover the essentials and to pay yourself and your staff. and there is nothing wrong with that. But what I hate is when you go to schools who charge arms and legs and they only have class once a week. That is a turn off for me. See just like how businesses keeps books to see where their money is going, consumers do the same. So when consumers do the math and compare notes one can't blame them for saying well damn I'm spending this, what am I getting for this money? Shoot matter of fact, I have similar feelings now in technical college. I'm studying network systems and my tutition is 14,000, I'm still trying to figure out where all the money is spent...lol. but seriously....I see nothing wrong with instructors who charge or those who teach for free. Matter of fact I look at those who teach quality martial arts for free as giving back to the community. Jye sidtkd@aol.com wrote: Now I've heard everything! It's sinful to charge for lessons. So...here's what I'm going to do. I'm opening a grocery store and charging only cost. Better still...all groceries are free. Sound right to you? Where the devil do these idiotic ideas come from? Who works for free???? I'm not concerned with the fee...be concerned that the training is good, you don't get hurt or ripped off. The fee is what the traffic will bear. Shop for the best you can afford like anything else. But once and for all...martial arts is NOT a high spiritual calling! Please let's stop this stupidity and I'll stop jumping from treetop to treetop as I do 50 yard long flying side kicks! Sid _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:02:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] stumbled across this To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You're welcome Josette. It looks like a good program. I wish I could participate. Is the program 4 months? jye Josette LeBlanc wrote: Jye, Thank you so much for sending this website. I am in Daegu, South Korea teaching English and trying to learn Korean on my own. I have many Korean friends, but we always speak in English. I think you provided me with a fun option for learning Korean at the end of my teaching contract. Thanks again, Josette On 13/07/06, Jye nigma wrote: > > pretty interesting. Wish I could do this right about now: > http://www.wle-korea.com/study-taekwondo-in-korea/taekwondo.html > > > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > rates starting at 1¢/min. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Mark Gajdostik" To: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:04:28 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching for profit & the closed minded. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, I have recently switched from volunteering my teaching services to a 'for profit' school. I spent the last decade doing a fun but draining job, and the last 4 years teaching for free on my off time. I quit the job to go full time martial arts. Since I have gone for profit and am able to focus on my art full time I have found and done some cool things. -I have finally had the chance to re-arrange my curriculum to a more logical format so learning it is not as confusing to guppies, and so it has a better progression to black belt. -I have almost doubled my students in just 1 month. -I have met with every student at length and completed student assessments and goal setting. -I have created a new jr.belt program for the kids. -I have time to send thanks you's, birthday cards, anniversary cards, attend student soccer games, plays, and help friends move.---well, maybe that's not the best thing. -I have had the chance finally to do some hard training with fellow instructors and school owners to enhance both my martial & business skills. -I have worked on my school image, policies, procedures, student tracking, marketing, training videos, support paperwork, website. -I have time to iron my uniform instead of going shake-n-bake from the dryer. -I have time to focus on student retention and even bring back some that have quit (you know what, some quit cause I didn't have enough time for them) -I have time to hang out before and after class to give quick lessons to those who are a bit stuck. -I have time to spend with my children. -I have time to go to the gym. -I have time to write responses and actually read entire DD emails! My blood pressure and stress level is a fraction of what it was before and I am much happier. ---but it seems I have sold out and am no longer an honorable instructor :-( It is sad that some have such an ignorant view of such positive things. You PAY for the best doctors (or your ins.co.does) You PAY for the best mechanics with the right tools and facilities. You PAY for a good car You PAY more for a crappy car You PAY for good lawyers. You PAY for an exquisite meal prepared by a master chef. You don't PAY when you get a crappy meal at McDonalds You PAY later on the toilet if you eat that crappy meal You PAY for a good computer. You PAY for a good college/university education You get PAY for doing a job that has rare skills employers need or want. I have skills and experiences that a vast majority of people do not have but some want. I'm gonna get paid. I've seen bad doctors, mechanics, lawyers, professors, drive-thru people. I don't give them my business if they are no good. The counter may be: how does someone know if a dojang is good or bad---right, like you know your doctor or lawyer is good or bad before you see them in action. Do some research--just like anything else. Caveat Emptor. If you go to work at some job everyday and think you are good at what you do, perhaps you should volunteer to do it lieu of pay so you will be doing an honorable thing. Then you will be a REAL mechanic, REAL doctor, REAL burger flipper, REAL janitor, REAL whatever. There are those instructors and schools out there that do a wonderful job with little to no pay. BRAVO! There is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with receiving pay for doing good work. Get over it. Mark Gajdostik TNT-Martial Arts www.TNTma.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:16:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] I regret to say Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That I won't be able to attend JR West's seminar here in Austin in a couple of weeks as I will be attending a friend's wedding on that day and a bunch of my wife's friends will be in from out of town, so I'll be the primary parent for the day. [IMAGE]  I was really looking forward to this seminar. Hopefully, it will be enough of a success for Master West to repeat next year. Joe Cheavens --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:19:36 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Unbreakable Umbrella Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Earlier this year someone posted about the Unbreakable Umbrella. I checked these out and included using one in the Hapkido Cane DVD set I filmed with Paladin Press last month. You can see a couple pictures from that video shoot and some info about the umbrella at my site. Go to www.burrese.com and under new stuff in the upper right corner you will see a link to the umbrella page. While they are pricy, they are one heck of an umbrella. They work very well with many of the Hapkido cane techniques, and can be a nice tool to have in your automobile, etc. What is out of the ordinary regarding carrying an umbrella in your car, or on your person for that matter? Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:33:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] True Masters of the Arts From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dojunim Atamian, Please, you are welcome to call me Tom or Thomas. I do appreciate the gesture but it’s not necessary. As I’ve explained a while back, my parents raised us to call our seniors by their last name and I feel uncomfortable doing otherwise. My parents are rather formal in that regard and to this day, my father still opens the door for my mother as if he’s still courting her. In regards to offending me, with three older sisters, I’m darn near bulletproof. :) I’ve met some fine martial artists and high ranking school owners who should never, never give business advice. I’ve also met a few school owners that I wish wasn’t representing the martial art community with their pimplike ways. I got into martial arts to learn martial arts. After about six weeks, I was hooked and knew that I wanted to work my way into becoming an instructor. At the time, money was never thought about. Since then I’ve opened a school and closed it. We were in an organization that, I think, lost focus and started counting our annual student testing as a qualifier to test for higher dahn ranking. Because all the "good areas" were in protected territories, we were in an economically depressed area. So we closed our doors, learned new curriculum, and reopened in our home town. We’ve made some pretty dumb business decisions along the way and I’ve learned some lessons from hard knocks. I hate it when that happens! :) One thing I learned was I am perfectly capable of working 50-65 hours a week at my day job and teaching "for the love" in the evenings. Too bad my children will basically have an absentee father. I could go on about the determent to the home life but it’s pretty obvious and we’ve all seen it. So now the option is to make sure my day job doesn’t take up so much time. Yeah, well that affects my take home pay so now my family doesn’t get the best I can provide for them. That doesn’t make sense and it’s not fair to our children – heck, it’s not fair to me and the bride. Hum, well, guess we’ll need to charge a rate that allows us to make a good living and provide the best service we can for our students. For us, we’re in a different circumstance than most. I still retain my day job but my bride gave up her job that paid well and gave good benefits. She did this to be with our children more and to run our martial art school. For this, we will have to be compensated to make up the difference. Thank you for the reply. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest