Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:25:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #295 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Good Question (Gordon) 2. Teaching for profit (Hugh Simmons) 3. Fees (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Students and Real Fights (Brooke Thomas) 5. Re: GM West Update (kat_kelly@sbcglobal.net) 6. Re: Supposed Picture of Doju Choi (Ray) 7. Correction to Nomination Process for USAT Board Positions (The_Dojang) 8. Re: Time In Rank (Ray) 9. Zidane-do (Ray) 10. RE: Zidane-do (michael tomlinson) 11. Re: stumbled across this (Josette LeBlanc) 12. Sid (rich hodder) 13. RE: Time In Rank (Rick Clark) 14. RE: Students and Real Fights (Rick Clark) 15. Master Dan for profit and non profit teaching (Dan Scholten) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:46:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Good Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Many of my students are faster than I am. Some of them are more skilled in some areas than I am. We all come from different backgrounds, different training, we are different people. Some are younger, more fit. Some are older, less fit. We are all very good friends. The constant respect, classroom decorum, deference to seniors, humility and friendship shown every day in the dojang make it a ludicrous act to try to overthrow ones instructor simply because you feel physically capable of doing so. I have some huge men that could squash me if they could get their paws on me. I am pleased to see my students surpass me. It is an honor, my chest swells. I did my job. This is the best reward an instructor can receive. - to see their students succeed. We help to build the leaders of tomorrow. We challenge each other daily. We challenge each other to improve. As Mr. Tomlinson reminded us, sheepdogs train to better themselves in order to protect the sheep from the wolf, not to fight amongst the other sheepdogs. Thank you, once again, Mr. Tomlinson for reminding me of my duty. If I had a student that actually wanted to "fight" me to see if he was better, I would say: "I never knew you." I would be saddened at the loss, because he would no longer be a student, but a rival. I would look to myself to see where I failed him in the moral and honorable aspects of the martial arts. I'm sure that all who heard the challenge would step in front of me to take on the challenger first. I would have to turn him down and ask him to leave. Hopefully, after reflection, he would return in shame, ask forgiveness and become a student once again. I don't like the thought of hurting one of my students to prove a point. Every time a student gets hurt in class, we all rush to their aid. Whoever caused the injury apologizes and asks forgiveness. We are a family of sorts. As martial artists we hold back terrible power. We understand that we can cause great harm to others and therefore we control it. This is one of our tenants, repeated daily: self control. A student wanting to conquer his teacher has lost this among other things. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:55:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Hugh Simmons To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching for profit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I thought I'd join in on this topic... I'm just a blue belt in Hapkido so I cannot directly comment on teaching martial arts from a teacher's perspective (I'm quite happy being a student). I am, however, a social worker in private practice and it strikes me that there is a similarity in the areas of martial arts and social work when it comes to charging money. Like many who pursue martial arts, social workers usually enter the field because they genuinely want to contribute to the world in a positive way. They do not do it to become rich. They do it out of a sense of mission. Most, if not all, social workers however, as their careers progress and they get older, find that money is really very important. We need to feed ourselves and our families, prepare for retirement and enjoy some good things this world has to offer, like vacations! But how can we be compensated adequately for our services without becoming exploitative, either as salaried employees or private practitioners? How can we set reasonable fees? What to do if someone has trouble paying? What the profession as a whole is coming to is peace with the idea that what we do has a value and that we do no one any good if we undervalue that ourselves. Being paid for time and effort does not mean we do not care. In fact, not being paid is ultimately toxic to a caring, professional relationship. The unpaid professional will probably end up feeling used and resentful, damaging the good work she or he would otherwise do for the person who needs her or him. And it is condescending to clients to infantalize them by treating them as dependent, resourceless waifs. Most do want to pay for the services they get, even if at times it needs to be a sliding scale. Not paying for services encourages a client's sense of "owing" something to the professional that causes feelings of guilt, dependency and resentment. So to my mind the question isn't between whether the martial arts teacher should charge or not, but does the martial arts teacher feel freed enough from financially-based resentment and stress to care for her or his students in an uncluttered way? I love my training and love my martial arts teachers. I want them to be paid! So I happily pay my fee each month. A financial committment to one's training strikes me as a very-important expression of respect for the time and effort one's teachers put in, and the value to what they are teaching. Hugh --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 3 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:00:53 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid writes: > But once and for all...martial arts is NOT a high spiritual > calling! Please let's stop this stupidity and I'll stop jumping > from treetop > to treetop as I do 50 yard long flying side kicks! Hello Sid. I have not even seen any "spiritual leaders" who do not get some form of income from their flocks lol... have you? I run a non profit association and a non profit club; however, I HAVE to charge because the bills still need to be paid. Non profit in our groups simply means that we are working as volunteers who have income from other sources. If this were not so, and it is not so for most of our members, I would have no hesitation to charge a fair price. Like you and other say, be concerned with the competency of those who you learn from. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:17:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Students and Real Fights Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A variation of this happened at our school many years ago. A guy came in off the street, wanted to know who the top instructor was, met him, and challenged him to a fight in the school. After trying in vain to talk the guy out of it (who of course wouldn't take no for an answer and he wouldn't leave), master agreed to step on the mat with him. This guy had brought his new cool karate pads complete with shin guards, gloves, etc. After steeping onto the mat, the guy started putting on all his gear expecting master to do the same thing. Master walked over to the cabinet next to the side of the mat and slowly started wrapping black elecrical tape lightly around his knuckles. The guy said hey! Where are your pads? To which master said, you challenged me, there are NO rules to this fight. The guy thought about it for exactly 2 seconds, picked up his stuff and left never to be seen again. True story. This also happened to my master's master many years before the above incident but with far different results. Some guy came in, refused to leave, made a big stink that he could kick anyone's a$$...and master (who was teaching a kids class at the time), realized he had to get the kids off the mat. The bad dude then jumped in, and after a few seconds of bobbing and weaving, master hit this guy full on in the face with a spinning heel kick...the guy dropped unconscious with a fountain of blood and teeth exiting his head. The kids (and their moms off to the side), we're horrified. Master never saw that guy again either. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 5 From: To: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:19:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: GM West Update Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I spoke with GM West just the other day and he is doing better then your average mutant would hope to do. He was even accused of being 20 year younger then his biological age :) I am looking forward to GM West's upcoming seminar is Austin. See you all there, Kat > Message: 7 > From: Ray > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) > Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:48:53 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [The_Dojang] GM West update > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > As several of you already know, GM West recently went in for a 'quick' > 30 minute surgery which ended up lasting 3+ hours. Guess they didn't > realize > how truely warped and messed-up he actually is inside. :) > > Anyway, he is doing well now and recovering at home. He'll be out of > active > HKD action for a few more weeks, but is at least alive, well and thinking > of which buffet he'll attack first once he is feeling a little better. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Supposed Picture of Doju Choi To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Does anyone have that picture of the Japanese masters and one of them looks > like it could be Dojunim Choi? If so could someone email it to me? There is one picture of a group of Daito ryu students/teachers that some try using as proof that GM Choi was Daito ryu. The problem is that picture doesn't show Gm Choi. There is one fellow that has his face blocked out by a reflection of the sun or a bright light onto the camera lens. Some try to claim it was an attempt to wipe GM Choi out of the picture. Some people also need to double-up on their meds. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:57:31 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Correction to Nomination Process for USAT Board Positions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Correction to Nomination Process for USAT Board Positions July 13, 2006 The original notice posted on June 14, 2006 on the USAT website in regard to the nomination of Board directors under Section 7.6 of the USAT Bylaws was predicated on the failure of an amendment to recognize the National Association of State Taekwondo Organizations (NASTO) directly in this Bylaw. However, since the NASTO meeting on July 8, 2006, the Board has revisited the issue of the recognition of NASTO as an Associaton of States. Consequently, Section 7.6 (e) 2 shall be followed and NASTO shall nominate 3 individuals for election. To date, USAT has not received any nominations for this position. Any nominations for the grassroots director's spot received in the USAT offices by July 31, 2006, shall be forwarded to NASTO for consideration. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick said back in June... > I was told that once you pass your 5th dan and take a Kukkiwon > coaching/teaching course you would get your 6th dan and there was no > time requirement on going from 5th to 6th. I do not believe that this is true. At least not outside of S.Korea. Any one have info on this? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Zidane-do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.addictinggames.com/zidaneheadbuttgame.html --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Zidane-do Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 00:32:23 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't know what all the problem was with that head but....I liked it and thought the other guy should of got a red card for accelerating his back fall so quickly....that really was a good backfall... Michael Tomlinson (not a real soccer fan, I only play one in the movies) >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) >Subject: [The_Dojang] Zidane-do >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:10:06 -0700 (PDT) > >http://www.addictinggames.com/zidaneheadbuttgame.html >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 19:02:44 -0700 From: "Josette LeBlanc" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] stumbled across this Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, It loooks like the program is made to fit your needs. You can do a one month course, which is the shortest, or you can do a university term, which I think is close to 4 months. You have the choice of taking intensive Korean Hanguk-mal classes (20hours a week) or non-intensive (10 hours). I am going to contact them with some questions and will forward the answers to you. I want to go the one month intensive program, probably in January 2007. Take care, Josette On 13/07/06, Jye nigma wrote: > > You're welcome Josette. It looks like a good program. I wish I could > participate. Is the program 4 months? > > jye > > Josette LeBlanc wrote: > Jye, > > Thank you so much for sending this website. I am in Daegu, South Korea > teaching English and trying to learn Korean on my own. I have many Korean > friends, but we always speak in English. I think you provided me with a > fun > option for learning Korean at the end of my teaching contract. > > Thanks again, > > Josette > > On 13/07/06, Jye nigma wrote: > > > > pretty interesting. Wish I could do this right about now: > > http://www.wle-korea.com/study-taekwondo-in-korea/taekwondo.html > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > > rates starting at 1¢/min. > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > > > -- > "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it > becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You > put > it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. > Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > -- "Be formless... shapeless like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be water, my friend..." - Bruce Lee --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "rich hodder" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 02:02:44 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yo Sid,you need to keep an eye on your blood pressure...... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Play FOX Fantasy Football with MSN: Live scoring, fully customizable & completely free --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:28:23 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, I got this when I was in Osan AFB, 1969-1970 from a couple of instructor Lee Kwan Sung and Kang Young Sun. Lee was the senior at the time, I can't remember exactly but one of the Koreans had just passed 5th dan and I was told he could go for 6th as soon as he did the course. But he did not have the cash at the time to take the course and get 6th. It probably is not true outside S. Korea, and this was one of the points I was making. There is a definite difference between time in grade in Korea, and to be frank if you are Korean or not Korean. Things may be different now, but back then this was what I saw first hand, and one of the reasons I feel the way I do about a number of issues that involve Koreans and rank - and organizations like the KKW and the ITF. Rick Clark "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds exactly the same opinion." Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 6:06 PM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Time In Rank > > >Rick said back in June... > >> I was told that once you pass your 5th dan and take a Kukkiwon >> coaching/teaching course you would get your 6th dan and there was no >> time requirement on going from 5th to 6th. > >I do not believe that this is true. At least not outside of S.Korea. > >Any one have info on this? > >Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:42:17 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Students and Real Fights To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net YEARS and YEARS ago I had some guys come in to the school and want to fight the instructor - me at the time - I asked them to have a seat and wait till I finished the class. We had just had a demo and had some boards around the dochang. I got a half dozen or so and started to teach "how to break" I did a few speed breaks with a hook kick, punch, and twist kick (a couple of boards each held from a thumb and forefinger) dismissed the class and ask them what they wanted. They left without much of a fuss. Another time we had had a big party after a tournament in the school. I was cleaning up with 2 black belts. As we left the school a couple of cars pulled up and wanted to fight three of us. I pulled out a dime (that tells you how long ago that was) and tossed it to the leader of the group and asked him to go to the corner and call for several ambulances as they would be needed soon. He got the idea (somehow) that they would be the ones needing the services of the EMTs and quickly left. It cost me a dime - but well worth the cost :-) >-----Original Message----- >From: Brooke Thomas [mailto:intv1@pacbell.net] >A variation of this happened at our school many years >ago. A guy came in off the street, wanted to know who >the top instructor was, met him, and challenged him to >a fight in the school., >Brooke Thomas >Hapkido Blend Rick Clark "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds exactly the same opinion." Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:21:31 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan for profit and non profit teaching Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well as usual say something and people run with it like a hook in fishes mouth. Charging not charging is not black and white or all good or all bad. I like the Naturopathic philosophy which says (NOT ONLY BUT ALSO) which means a little of everything in balance is good anything in its extreme or exclusive is unhealthy. It's a person's motivation that effects what or how they teach. Charging limits me in what I can or cannot do in relation to teaching the traditional art. To many people are testing and passing along rank because they are sweating the next rent payment or other financial pressures or just greedy. Each man must make his own decision but a bad instructor is a bad instructor pay or not!! The first Master I started with who was Ernie Reaze sr. instructor in San Jose Ca. (forgive my spelling) was totally awesome and one of the most successful instructors and drove a Porse but he also balanced his students with no charge to poor or disadvantaged students as well. I do allot of Grant writing for TKD programs but I refuse to be paid because when the shxx hits the fan and it always does related to someone belly aching about their not getting the grant it always comes down to finger pointing about Oh you just want to teach because you are getting money. I refuse to be put on that level and I get money for the kids when other people can't. There are grants out there to fully fund a MA school as a non profit and provide salary income for the instructor long term and that is better that pay per student fee. In Barrow a Korean master came in started a non profit they raised $500,000 in one year from gambling, the city donated land to build a Do-Jang and instead of spending the money on the kids three house were bought for cash in Idaho and no taxes paid, IRS came in shut everything down and the city took the land back. The Master left town, I went up took six months off from work to write a grant and get land for 1.2 million with 250 grand a year renewable for five years for operating expenses but the local Borough needed to administer the grant for a 19% fee because my non profit was too small, The mayor was all set but his legal department would not approve because they have $50 million a year in grants and they want to cut off all 8 of their villages because of bad book keeping so they could not say yes to me and no to them, six months wasted and that is twice in ten years but it would not have happened if the first guy had not made such a made name for TKD. There are abuses in both profit and non profit I am complaining about the motivation of the bad in both has taken its toll. I think a mix of both is good but most important don't allow yourself to be forced to teach differently than what is right. As for the what if your best student wanted to fight??? That is ridiculous, Your best student is someone who has been with you for at least several years and if you weren't smart enough to weed him out before that then you deserve what you get?? What does happen is people come in off the street and what to try you and the older you get and this is a very disturbing trend in America, no respect for age, the more the young want to try you. But again any of the real masters out there know that age and treachery will always win over youth and ability in their minds. Any one coming after you putting you or your family at risk because they want to inflate their ego deserves no pity no rules no mercy however it is philosophically immoral to use more force than what is needed depending on who or what they are. If they outweigh you by 50 lbs or more and are 20 or more years younger they deserve what they get. It's a bad world out there and I don't get up or got to bed with out a thought to who or what may happen and I always have my bag of tricks with me. That's not being morbid just a good boy scout. Frankly a lot of its Karma when its your time to go a house may drop out of the sky and your toes curl up but that doesn't mean you volunteer to crawl under houses. Most men who have had a real taste of battle and survived prefer not to talk too much about it but later confrontations over bullshit don't mean much and if needed against those who have not does not last long. The real problem is like a dog who has tasted the sheep and has to be put down because now he has a taste for sheep. So you try to focus on your family and helping who you can. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest