Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:52:23 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #302 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Question of honor and ethics (Mike Donahoo) 2. History of dan ranks (Michael Atamian) 3. Re: Promotion (Joseph Cheavens) 4. RE: RE: History of dan ranks (Joseph Cheavens) 5. Re: Seminar circuit (ISA Headquarters) 6. More than martial art (The_Dojang) 7. (no subject) (Rudy Timmerman) 8. RE: History of dan ranks (michael tomlinson) 9. Re: Dans and belts in general (sidtkd@aol.com) 10. RE: Question of honor and ethics (Rick Clark) 11. RE: Question of honor and ethics (Jay O'Connor) 12. Re: RE: Most Difficult Break (Steven Berkowitz) 13. Final Fu (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 14. Master Dan history of belts and rank (Dan Scholten) 15. Re: Question of honor and ethics (Thomas Gordon) 16. Re: Re: Dans and belts in general (Ray) 17. RE: why multiple breaks (Mike Donahoo) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 22:56:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Question of honor and ethics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for everyone. I am going to lay out a hypothetical situation and I am looking for some insight. When a student is under a teacher who has lost most of his passion for teaching and growing as a martial artist, how does the student go about rekindling that fire in their master? How do you bring a topic like this to there attention? What if several high ranking instructors have already brought it to the masters attention as nicely as possibly and nothing changed? In devotion to the art Mike Donahoo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Michael Atamian" To: ".the dojang" Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 07:32:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] History of dan ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I go back to the fifties and can safely state that there were no ranks higher than 9th Dan at that time. The Koreans had just started using the number system and stressed that there were 20 steps in the martial arts - starting with 10th gup to represent a total novice - all the way up to 9th Dan which was always the head of a system. The 20th step, 10th Dan, was reserved for heads of systems who either died or retired and were succeeded. The Kido folks decided not to be outclassed by their Japanese counterparts so they came up with the "living" and "active" 10th Dan. It's only a number and I could never understand why so many are so obsessed with it. How you act and what you teach is far more impressive to me than your Dan rank. It's like the word "grandmaster"....but that's another story for another day! Fraternally, Michael A. Atamian Doju/Choson Do --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Promotion Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 07:45:35 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Promotion Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:38:09 -0700 (PDT) > Congratulations to DD member Steve Petermann on his recent promotion to 7th > degree in Jang Mu Hapkido by Grandmaster Chong S. Kim! Wow! Big time congrats to Master Peterman! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: History of dan ranks Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 07:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yeah, I prefer the old yellow, green, brown schema, too. For one thing, students don't need to buy a new belt every time they get promoted, as it is easy to die them to the next color (blue and forest green die for yellow to green, red and brown die for green to brown). Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rick Clark" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: History of dan ranks Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 20:41:18 -0400 Hi Ray, >I personally have not heard of Korean arts every having only seven day ranks. They do/used-to only have nine, but that also >seems to be changing with time. > >Ray Terry Can't let the Japanese/Okinawans have 10 dan ranks and out rank even the highest ranked Korean :-) I always thought it was a bit "odd" that for years the Koreans used brown belts - but changed to red - red being a 10th dan in Japanese / Okinawan styles. I went along with the change for a while but had Wally Jay in my school and he went up to one of my "red" belts and said something like "oh you're a red belt too". The next day I went back to brown belts in my club. Rick _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:59:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Seminar circuit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, August will be a fast month for me as I will be on the road a good part of the month. My itinerary includes: August 2nd -- Holding the ISA Mini-clinic in Kenner, Louisiana August 4th & 5th & 6th -- Meet with and attend GM In Sun Seo Seminar in Dallas, Texas. August 9th -- Hold Mini-clinic at Progressive Martial Arts in Bonham, Texas. August 11th -- Hold Mini-clinic at Twin Tiger Karate in Bethlehem, Georgia. August 18th & 19th -- Attend and instruct at Karate for Christ International Seminar. Guest Instructor will be Dan Severn. Contact info can be found at: http://www.sungjado.org/News.html Thanks for the bandwidth Ray. Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 7235 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 06:12:00 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] More than martial art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Finns Regard Taekwondo as More Than Martial Art 07-19-2006 By Yoon Seong-hoon Korea Times Global Student Reporter I feel Taekwondo settled as a sport mainly for children nowadays in Korea, the hometown of taekwondo. However in Finland, it is a sport for everybody; I also saw many female students there. Many Koreans have probably gone to a nearby taekwondo institute when they were young. However, as they grow older to become middle and high school students, they usually stop learning taekwondo because of the pressure to study. After they become adults, even though they want to start taekwondo or resume learning again, most of the students in the institutes are children and this atmosphere makes them avoid joining the group. In Finland, there are no hidden age limits in learning taekwondo. Adults and children learn taekwondo together. ``I have learned taekwondo for 11 years,'' said Petteri Kauppinen, who is attending the University of Technology in Finland. While learning taekwondo by himself in this institute I visited, he was helping other students as well. When somebody sees Petteri's taekwondo skills at first, he or she might think his major might be taekwondo. However, he is a normal student attending one of the best Universities in Finland. What is the reason that taekwondo is a sport for everybody in Finland while it is a sport rather for children and athletes in Korea? I found the answer from a person who introduced taekwondo in this northern dimension. ``Leisure sports are highly developed in Finland. Everybody does sports for their health. It is why taekwondo could be recognized as a sport for the whole generation in Finland. In Korea, taekwondo has been settled down as a sport rather for athletes because it has been important to win the game in the Olympics as a hub country of taekwondo,'' said Hwang Dae-jin, who brought taekwondo to Finland and also to Russia. Nowadays he teaches taekwondo at a welfare center to old people, orphans, and the handicapped. He also teaches it to Finnish politicians twice a week. All these efforts have taken an important part in developing taekwondo as a leisure sport here in Finland. When you look up the word taekwondo in a dictionary, you can find the meaning as follows: a Korean martial art. It is not a sport to attack somebody, but an art to defend yourself. That is why etiquette is very important in taekwondo. It also compliments traditional Korean lifestyle, which does not have a history of attacking other countries. Here in this Northern European country many adults and children are learning this well-being sport, together. One year ago, taekwondo faced a crisis; could it survive or not as an Olympic sport? At that time, many Koreans worried what would happen. It is needless to say that taekwondo is our valuable asset. We should know taekwondo is one of the main items advertising Korea and it is good news that taekwondo is well regarded in foreign countries. Yoon Seong-hoon, a business administration senior at Hongik University, Seoul is currently an exchange student studying at Haaga University of Applied Sciences in Helsinki, Finland. --__--__-- Message: 7 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:33:20 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sharon writes: > Congratulations to DD member Steve Petermann on his recent > promotion to 7th > degree in Jang Mu Hapkido by Grandmaster Chong S. Kim! Congratulations to Master Petermann, and nice to see you Sharon. Hope all is well with you again my friend. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] History of dan ranks Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:38:50 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Atamian writes: It's only a number and I could never understand why so many are so obsessed with it. How you act and what you teach is far more impressive to me than your Dan rank.----- Very well said, I totally agree. I base my dealings with people in all walks of life on the concept of show me your actions and don't "tell" me your actions....by watching what people "do" you can IMHO see the real person....everything else is just window dressing and fancy embroidery.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 9 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:08:29 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dans and belts in general Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When we say which dans were "originally" used, we have to stop and remember that at one time everyone used a white belt and as it discolored and got darker we were able to see who was senior. When I started in MooDukKwan, I was fortunate enough to meet Hwang Kee. As highest ranking he was 8th dan. As Tangsoodo and Korean Martial Arts in general grew, there were more 8th dans so we needed a 9th dan. Now there are over 250 9th dans world wide and we have five 10 dans. That doesn't trouble me. I'm a bit peeved seeing yellow, orange, blue, purple and especially brown belts. I'd prefer to see white, green, red/bl ack for kids and black with white stripe for adults. For my 2 cents...nothing makes me feel more respect than seeing an aged master with a tattered black belt. Sid --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:57:40 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Question of honor and ethics To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mike, If a person has lost their passion for teaching then they need to retire. There is no way you can change the behavior or attitude of another person and you simply set yourself up for failure if you try. Personally I would look for a new instructor to work with that still has a passion for the martial arts and wants to teach. Rick Clark "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds exactly the same opinion." Oscar Wilde www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Donahoo [mailto:md_tkd1@yahoo.com] > >I have a question for everyone. I am going to lay out a hypothetical situation and I am looking for some >insight. When a student is under a teacher who has lost most of his passion for teaching and growing as a >martial artist, how does the student go about rekindling that fire in their master? How do you bring >a topic like this to there attention? What if several high ranking instructors have already brought it to >the masters attention as nicely as possibly and nothing changed? > >In devotion to the art >Mike Donahoo --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 9:51:35 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Question of honor and ethics Cc: Rick Clark Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net and if you want the person to change for their own good, when you switch instructorw you may want to say something like "I have to leave you to go train with [someone else] because you'velost the passion to teach and it's affecting my ability to train" or words to that effect. Hopefully that will get the instructors attention that they should retire or re-focus when they realize it's negatively affecting the students Take care, Jay ---- Rick Clark wrote: > Hi Mike, > > If a person has lost their passion for teaching then they need to > retire. There is no way you can change the behavior or attitude of > another person and you simply set yourself up for failure if you try. > Personally I would look for a new instructor to work with that still has > a passion for the martial arts and wants to teach. > > Rick Clark "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good > society holds exactly the same opinion." Oscar Wilde > > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Mike Donahoo [mailto:md_tkd1@yahoo.com] > > > >I have a question for everyone. I am going to lay out a hypothetical > situation and I am looking for some > >insight. When a student is under a teacher who has lost most of his > passion for teaching and growing as a > >martial artist, how does the student go about rekindling that fire in > their master? How do you bring > >a topic like this to there attention? What if several high ranking > instructors have already brought it to > >the masters attention as nicely as possibly and nothing changed? > > > >In devotion to the art > >Mike Donahoo > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Most Difficult Break Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:17:40 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Red firebrick, NOT rebaked, lifted up at 1 end by left hand, to 30-40 degree, right hand ON the brick. NO big lift of right hand into air, just laid gently ON brick, heel of hand lifted slightly, then driven down on brick. No real velocity, no momentum or vertical weight helping, just the heel of hand. Chinese arts call it iron palm? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Most Difficult Break > Markus Michalek said: > "my most difficult break was a jump an perform three kicks, apchagi, > apchagi, dollyochagi without touching the ground in between. > It was difficult but i managed at the third time, i tried. > lucky, the board was only 2 cm, which is not yet one inch (2,5 cm) > and size 30 x 30. > > But i want to try maybe a fourth kick after the dollyo, maybe a > dwitchagi, before reaching the ground again." > > Now, my question is....why? > NO disrespect intended at all towards you or anyone else who chooses to > attempt such breaks but from my experience over the years I would say you > practice WTF TKD, or something in that ballpark. They are the only ones I > know that break with techniques like that. Multiple jumping kicks during > one jump, 720 degree kicks(2 complete spins while airborne), etc. But why?? > Because it looks cool? Because it makes the crowd who is watching go > "Whoooaaaaa, dude, that was awesome...."? OR is it personal satisfaction? > It would be interesting for everyone who replies to this thread to give > their answer and then state what "style" of TKD they practice, either ITF or > WTF. Or I guess for that matter GTF and whatever other kind of "...Fs" are > out there these days. > Yes, the high flying/multiple kick/mulitple spin breaks DO look cool. BUT > TKD's intent is to teach POWER and the philosophy of "one shot, one kill"; > one strike should end the fight. Breaking should test the student's ability > of realistic techniques that can be applied in combat/self-defense. I teach > my students that breaking should build confidence in your ability to use > that particular technique to it's full powerful potential. So, can you be > confident that you can jump up in the air and take out 3 and even 4 > opponents(who were dumb enough to stand that close together)without hitting > the ground?? > My test to anyone who performs such breaks: Do the break mentioned by > Markus. THEN break 4 or 5 1"(not the popularized 2 cm or 1/4" boards by the > WTF) with a ridgehand (unspaced of course). Which was more difficult? > Again, NO disrespect intended. I am sure Markus' ability is very good and I > would like to see video of his break if he completes it with the additional > dwichagi. I'm sure I would give him a "Dude!.....)You know the rest.. > By the way, MY most difficult break was my very first break as a white belt. > Not knowing what it was going to feel like. Not knowing what was going to > happen. A simple downward hammerfist strike on one board to a clueless and > inexperienced student. THAT was my hardest break. > > James Morgan > GTKDA > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/391 - Release Date: 7/18/2006 --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:25:17 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Final Fu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I watched that Final-Fu show last night. At first I thought hey this might be OK. The creative drils were fun to watch, but when the fights started Iwanted to throw up. Those people have great line and technique, but IMHO couldn't fight out of a wet paper sack. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:49:47 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan history of belts and rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can tell you what I know, WTF has always had 10 Dan's with only one 10th Dan allowed who is president of the WTF association, There have been recently some 10th Dan ranks awarded as honorary for contributions and politics. My GM certificate is #20 ever issued at 9th Dan level in the world. In Jido Kwan we have always had both Red and brown belt with Red two levels high and low and Brown three levels before Deputy Black Belt. I can tell you that I was told that the red belt was done as a slap to the Japanese since that signifies Master and put below Brown belt. I have a Master Belt in Ryuku Kempo besides TKD as well which is both black and Red and others All Red with Yellow lettering. So far I have seen no problems with red belts in the US but I do wish they would eliminate Purple at competitions because most people don't know what or where to put them??? Bottom line there is 10 Gups to 1st Dan but we always use to have deputy black belt for 90 days to see how a person was going to act before awarding 1st Dan. A lot of years and a lot of money later I think this has disappeared????????????? --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:16:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Question of honor and ethics From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Donahoo, I went through a similiar situation about 12 years ago. We (being the senior students) did our best to get him out of the slump. In the end, it was a colossal waste of time. He lost all his senior students, lost his wife, and lost his school. With that said, if it were me - being a compassionate person...and perhaps a bit of a slow learner - I'd try to get him into some seminars and maybe get him to take a 2-3 week vacation (martial arts prohibited on his vacation - TRUE vacation). If that didn't work, and you genuinely like this person, I would tactfully suggest they retire with some dignity. Best regards, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Dans and belts in general To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > When we say which dans were "originally" used, we have to stop and remember > that at one time everyone used a white belt and as it discolored and got > darker we were able to see who was senior. This is a commonly told story, but it is just urban/martial legend. Nothing more. If you think about it, uniforms are a new addition to the study of martial arts, as are belts. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:15:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: why multiple breaks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Morgan I agree with what you said 100% Breaks should reflect power, speed, and concentration. The mind and body moving as one to break an object, whether it is wood, tiles, or concrete. On the other hand that is exactly why I think some students do multiple breaks - to show the complete control, agility, speed, power, concentration, and targeting that is required of such feats. Some of our students choose to attempt such breaks and we let the older more experienced ones attempt. We do not use 'demo' boards though. We use 1" pine. Also you asked of our background. We are a WTF style school. Our students study Palgwe forms at the colored belt level and at black belt level not only do they learn WTF but ITF forms for there dan level. So a first dan does Koryo and Gwang Gae, etc. In devotion to the art Mike Donahoo --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest