Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:00:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #319 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Karate influence (Beungood8@aol.com) 2. video clip: knife defense (Master Lugo) 3. NK TKD update (Ray) 4. 2006 Kukkiwon Textbook and DVD???? (Chung Do Kwan) 5. RE: Re: Karate influence (Joseph Cheavens) 6. RE: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence (Joseph Cheavens) 7. RE: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:04:03 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Karate influence Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 8/2/2006 7:17:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Since the different kwan were founded by Koreans that studied either Shotokan, Shito-ryu or Shudokan, or some combination thereof (with Shotakan being the most common influence) I What kwans came from Shotokan,Shito-ryu and Shudokan. Did each one have techniques that differentiated one from the other? JAck --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: 2 Aug 2006 14:31:03 -0000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Master Lugo" Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: knife defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It looks to look at but will not work in the street. I grew up in the South Bronx in the 70's and 80's and know first hand what its like been attack by a weapon. I can attest that those technique will get you nothing but killed. Here a link to a very affective selfdefense techniques refined in the streets of the Bronx. http://youtube.com/watch?v=uymIi93hqmU&search=miyama heres another video http://youtube.com/watch?v=rGDdrnjeKXc&search=hapkido From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: knife defense Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) stuff that'll get you killed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPVwh4ldjfk&search=self%20defense --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] NK TKD update Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net An update from TKD Times... ------------------------------------------------- I have just received word that despite the recent turmoil in the foreign relations arena that everything for the DPRK TKD Goodwill Tour looks to be progressing nicely and we should receive news about the visas soon! Thank you all and I will keep you all posted with further information. Lyz Lenz Assistant Editor Tae Kwon Do Times Magazine --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:28:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Chung Do Kwan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2006 Kukkiwon Textbook and DVD???? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net does anyone know where to go to purchase these items? Yours in the Martial Arts, Troy L. Smith, Jr. United Martial Arts Society President www.umas.biz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Karate influence Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 10:54:05 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Based on "The Japanese Origins of Taekwondo" by Eric Madis, published in the Koryu Journal in 2002: Yi Won-kuk studied Shotokan and founded the Chungdokwan. Ryo Byung-ji studied Shotokan and founded the Songmukwan. Lee Kyong-suk founded the Yunmukwan and hired Chung Sang-sup to teach Judo and Karate. Little is known about what kind of Karate Chung studied, but since he studied in Tokyo, he most likely studied Shotokan or Shito-ryu. Madis theorizes that it was most likely Shotokan based on the noticeable Shotokan influence on the style of the Yunmukwan and its successor, the Jidokwan. After independence, Chung hired Yun Byung-in and later Yun Kwei-byung to help teach at the Yunmukwan. Both of Yuns had studied Shito-ryu under Toyama Kanken.  Yun Byung-in also founded the YMCA Kwombup and had reportedy studied Quan Fa in Manchuria prior to moving to Tokyo and studying Shito-ryu from Toyama in exchange for teaching Toyama some Quan Fa. Yun disapeared during the Korean War and his two top students reopened the school after the war and renamed it the Changmukwan. Yun Kwei-byung originally studied Shudokan in Osaka and later Shito-ryu in Tokyo. During the Korean War he took over leadership of the Yunmukwan and renamed it the Jidokwan. Hwang Ki claims that he studied some Quan Fa and T'aekkyon and self studied some Funakoshi textbooks on Okinawan Karate. However, Lee Won-kuk claims that Hwang Ki was one of his students at the Chungdohwe (first incarnation of the Chungdokwan). Hwang Ki founded the Moodukkwan in 1947. Ch'oe Hong-hi (aka "General Choi") claims to have studied Karate in Osaka (Shudokan?) and received his dan ranking in Shotokan in Tokyo. He was named administrative head of the Chungdokwan and later founded the Ohdokwan. Hope this helps. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beungood8@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Karate influence Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:04:03 EDT In a message dated 8/2/2006 7:17:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What kwans came from Shotokan,Shito-ryu and Shudokan. Did each one have techniques that differentiated one from the other? JAck _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 11:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've extracted this from a post I recently made on a Karate forum with regards the origin of the roundhouse kick (Japanese=Mawashi Geri; Korean=Doryo Ch'agi) and thought I'd share it with the group here to get some feedback. This is kind of my own adaptation of the "pendulum theory" to the history of Taekwondo. ----------------------------------------------- IMVHO, I think that those the writers who have focused on debunking the myth that TKD is an indigenous art by showing its roots in Japanese Karate may have overstated their argument that Taekyon has had absolutely no influence on the development of TKD. While the overall influence of Japanese Karate on TKD is undeniable, since all of the founders of the first kwan had studied Karate in Japan, I don't think enough attention has been paid by the authors to what kind of previous experience (if any) these founders had in Korea prior to going to Japan and the experience of those who were to become their senior students and the next generation of leaders of TKD. Unfortunately, since T'aekkyon was largely a folk art that was learned in a very informal fashion, had been in decline since the late Choson and was strongly associated with gangsters during the Colonial Period, it is nigh on impossible to document its influence other than by the statements of the founders themselves. Both Hwag Ki and Ch'oe Hong-hui (aka General Choi) say that they had studied T'aekkyon prior to studying Karate. However, the authors that have written on the Japanese origins of TKD tend to dismiss these claims based on a lack of documentation and by the fact that T'aekkyon had virtually disappeared by 1958, when Song Tok-ki was invited to demostrate T'aekkyon for Syngman Rhee's birthday. With regards to docuementation, I think it would be hard to document who taught whom an art that was so disorganized and informal. For example, just because I can't document who taught me how to play hacky sac doesn't mean I never learned (I used to play a lot in high school and college). As for the dissapearance of T'aekkyon by the late '50s, given the dark association between T'aekkyon and gangsters, I think it most likely that the practice of Karate began to replace T'aekkyon beginning with the founding of the first kwan in 1944. However, as Karate (T'angsu and Kyongsu) replaced T'aekkyon, those who had some experience with T'aekkyon would have been amongst those that started studying Karate and would have incorporated their previous knowledge into their Karate training. All of this is pretty hypothetical, though, and would make a great subject for future research. -------------------------------------------------------------- The main reason that I make this hypothesis is that Taekwondo has such a heavy emphasis on kicks and a larger variety of kicks than does Karate, especially traditional Okinawan Karate and pre-WWII Japanese Karate. I've kicked this around over on some Japanese MA forums and general MA forums from the perspective of "where did Japanese Karate get its kicks," and even some of the Japanese Karate guys hypothesized that Korea may have had an influence on Japanese Karate, although the consensus was that China was the most likely source. So, given that TKD originated from Japanese Karate (mostly Shotokan) and that Japanese Karate did not have many kicks before WWII (prime example being Mawashi Geri, which was not introduced into Shotakan until after WWII), where did all the kicks in TKD come from? Joe Cheavens --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 10:10:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net interesting post. To start we need to know about the specific kicks that were in TKD in the 50s. Jye Joseph Cheavens wrote: I've extracted this from a post I recently made on a Karate forum with regards the origin of the roundhouse kick (Japanese=Mawashi Geri; Korean=Doryo Ch'agi) and thought I'd share it with the group here to get some feedback. This is kind of my own adaptation of the "pendulum theory" to the history of Taekwondo. ----------------------------------------------- IMVHO, I think that those the writers who have focused on debunking the myth that TKD is an indigenous art by showing its roots in Japanese Karate may have overstated their argument that Taekyon has had absolutely no influence on the development of TKD. While the overall influence of Japanese Karate on TKD is undeniable, since all of the founders of the first kwan had studied Karate in Japan, I don't think enough attention has been paid by the authors to what kind of previous experience (if any) these founders had in Korea prior to going to Japan and the experience of those who were to become their senior students and the next generation of leaders of TKD. Unfortunately, since T'aekkyon was largely a folk art that was learned in a very informal fashion, had been in decline since the late Choson and was strongly associated with gangsters during the Colonial Period, it is nigh on impossible to document its influence other than by the statements of the founders themselves. Both Hwag Ki and Ch'oe Hong-hui (aka General Choi) say that they had studied T'aekkyon prior to studying Karate. However, the authors that have written on the Japanese origins of TKD tend to dismiss these claims based on a lack of documentation and by the fact that T'aekkyon had virtually disappeared by 1958, when Song Tok-ki was invited to demostrate T'aekkyon for Syngman Rhee's birthday. With regards to docuementation, I think it would be hard to document who taught whom an art that was so disorganized and informal. For example, just because I can't document who taught me how to play hacky sac doesn't mean I never learned (I used to play a lot in high school and college). As for the dissapearance of T'aekkyon by the late '50s, given the dark association between T'aekkyon and gangsters, I think it most likely that the practice of Karate began to replace T'aekkyon beginning with the founding of the first kwan in 1944. However, as Karate (T'angsu and Kyongsu) replaced T'aekkyon, those who had some experience with T'aekkyon would have been amongst those that started studying Karate and would have incorporated their previous knowledge into their Karate training. All of this is pretty hypothetical, though, and would make a great subject for future research. -------------------------------------------------------------- The main reason that I make this hypothesis is that Taekwondo has such a heavy emphasis on kicks and a larger variety of kicks than does Karate, especially traditional Okinawan Karate and pre-WWII Japanese Karate. I've kicked this around over on some Japanese MA forums and general MA forums from the perspective of "where did Japanese Karate get its kicks," and even some of the Japanese Karate guys hypothesized that Korea may have had an influence on Japanese Karate, although the consensus was that China was the most likely source. So, given that TKD originated from Japanese Karate (mostly Shotokan) and that Japanese Karate did not have many kicks before WWII (prime example being Mawashi Geri, which was not introduced into Shotakan until after WWII), where did all the kicks in TKD come from? Joe Cheavens _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest