Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:59:52 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #321 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. Real Self Defense (Master Lugo) 3. 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) (Christopher Spiller) 4. Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) (John Chambers) 5. Election results (The_Dojang) 6. =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Lewis_to_hold_seminar_at_Byrne=92s?= (The_Dojang) 7. Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyo (Joseph Cheavens) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 07:41:49 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: , Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Joe wrote: So, the resurgence of interest in T'aekkyon in the late '50s inspired the Kongsudo/Tangsudo practitioners to incorporate T'aekkyon style kicks into what became Taekwondo? My response: Yes, I think so. Here's what I wrote in my history at http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd/tkdhist.html: "It was not until Dok-Ki Song and Hwan Song gave a demonstration of t'aeggyon in 1958 at a birthday party for Republic of Korea (R.O.K.; South Korea) President Sung-Man Yi (aka. "Sung-Man Lee") that there was a resurgence of interest in the art. This renewal of interest preceded t'aekwondo's development into a more circular style, which took place in the late 1960s and early 1970s. This suggests that t'aekwondo's transition may have been in part due to the recognition of the circular traditions of t'aeggyon." There is a world of difference between Gen. Choi's early Taekwon-Do book that John Chambers mentions and the 1973 edition. Choi's first work looks much more like Japanese works of the time. Another point to remember, however, is the differentiation between Shotokan and Shotokai that took place in the 1950s. The JKA was moving towards more dynamic and showy kicks as well. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: 4 Aug 2006 12:34:38 -0000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Master Lugo" Subject: [The_Dojang] Real Self Defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The real way to understand the full measure of the techniques is by practising them in a formal setting, video view only gives you an idea. Countless NY Police, FBI, Federal and civil employees practice this style, in fact most of their selfdefense manuals are based on these technicques. What those that tell you? Remenber these guys have comfrontations everyday and expect to defend themselves well with techniques that has to be not only good but very effective. In a message dated 8/3/2006 7:15:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Here a link to a very affective selfdefense techniques refined in the streets of the Bronx. http://youtube.com/watch?v=uymIi93hqmU&search=miyama I thought some of the knife defense was dangerous. Some of the takedowns look as though the knife was close to the body. Too cooperative,static and not dynamic enough. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 14:03:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jphn Chamber said: "Joseph: You are probably right about the surface of TaeKwonDo in the late 1950s. I was promoted to black belt in early 1960s by the then 2nd President of the Korea TaeKwonDo Association, Kang Ik Lee. My Dan Certificate was signed by Lee and listed my promotion as: TaeKwonDo / MooDukKwan. I also received a book titled: TAEKWON-DO written by; Choi Hong Hi that was published in 1959. My instructor back then was; Kim Wong Kyung Just food for thought. John Chambers" Mr. Chambers, do you still have the 1959 textbook you mentioned? I have heard of it, but have never seen it (the earliest Gen. Choi book I have is the 1965 text) and would be very interested in hearing what it is comprised of. I was told by one gentleman that it's a pretty basic text but can't recall if it even includes any of the older Shorokan forms in it. From what I understand GM Park, Jong Soo is in several of the pictures (as he is in the 1965 book). Anyway, thanks for whatever insight you can provide. Pax, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "John Chambers" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 18:13:46 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Chris: The 1965 edition was the second printing of the earlier addition with virtually no difference in content from the 1959 edition.. John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Spiller" To: Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) > Jphn Chamber said: > > "Joseph: You are probably right about the surface of TaeKwonDo in the > late 1950s. I was promoted to black belt in early 1960s by the then 2nd > President of the Korea TaeKwonDo Association, Kang Ik Lee. > My Dan Certificate was signed by Lee and listed my promotion as: > TaeKwonDo / MooDukKwan. I also received a book titled: TAEKWON-DO written > by; Choi Hong Hi that was published in 1959. My instructor back then > was; Kim Wong Kyung Just food for thought. > > John Chambers" > > Mr. Chambers, do you still have the 1959 textbook you mentioned? I have > heard of it, but have never seen it (the earliest Gen. Choi book I have > is the 1965 text) and would be very interested in hearing what it is > comprised of. I was told by one gentleman that it's a pretty basic text > but can't recall if it even includes any of the older Shorokan forms in > it. From what I understand GM Park, Jong Soo is in several of the > pictures (as he is in the 1965 book). > > Anyway, thanks for whatever insight you can provide. > > Pax, > > Chris > > Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, > There's always laughter and good red wine. > At least I've always found it so. > Benedicamus Domino! > -Hilaire Belloc > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:37:02 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Election results Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Nominating and Governance Committee Election Results August 3, 2006 Elected to the USAT Nominating and Governance Committee are Jimmy Kim (Laguna Niguel, Calif.) as Coach/Referee member and Larry Cain (Lakewood, Colo.) as Grassroots member. Randy Chambliss (Hermosa Beach, Calif.) withdrew from the Grassroots Nominating and Governance Committee election to put his candidacy forth for the National Association of State Taekwondo Organizations' (NASTO) Grassroots Director position. Also, Christina Bayley (Dayton, Ohio) was elected as Athlete Representative by the Athlete Advisory Council. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:50:15 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Lewis_to_hold_seminar_at_Byrne=92s?= Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not your average Joe Friday, August 4, 2006 Former world heavyweight kickboxing champion Lewis to hold seminar at Byrne's Tang Soo Do One of martial arts most illustrious fighters, Joe Lewis, will be visiting Byrne's Tang Soo Do Karate Studio, Wednesday, Aug. 9 at 6:30 p.m. to conduct a seminar on his Joe Lewis Fighting System. Known world-wide as one of the toughest fighters ever, Joe Lewis has fought and beaten some of the sports most well known fighters such as Bill "Superfoot" Wallace and Chuck Norris. He has also displayed his fighting skills on the screen in "The Jaguar Lives." Although Lewis has been fighting and teaching for more than 30 years, he has not lost his tough edge or his enthusiasm for what he does. He teaches with the intensity that made him one of the greatest full contact fighters of all time and along with his ability to get his point across to any level or age anyone who participates in one of his seminars walks away with a great learning experience. Byrne's Tang Soo Do Studio owner, Richard Byrne, is no stranger to the martial arts accolades himself. He won the World Shoot Fighting Title in Japan 1996 and holds three World Records in Board Breaking. One of which he broke just last year in which he broke 15 boards with a single elbow strike. Byrne brings some of the best martial artists in the world through his doors to give his students a well rounded exposure to the martial arts. For more information, call 781-324-9568. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyo Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 21:54:09 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK, that is very interesting, since I've been participating in quite a few discussions about the origins of various kicking techniques in both Japanese Karate and TKD. Almost all Japanese Karateka say that most of the kicking techniques that we take for granted today (doryo ch'agi, dwi ch'agi, dwi doryo ch'agi, etc) did not exist prior to the end of WWII in Japanese Karate and still aren't a part of traditional Okinawan Karate. However, all of the Korean founders of the five kwan had studied Karate in Japan before or during WWII. So, the million dollar question is, where did these kicks come from and when were they introduced. If the 1965 text is the same as the ealier 1959 text, what kind of kicks were included? Does anyone know if there are any Jidokwan, Songmukwan or Mudukkwan texts from the '50s? If Korean Karate in the '50s was nothing more than watered down Japanese Karate, where did the kicks come from and how come TKD kicks are so much better than Japanese Karate kicks (ok, contreversial statement, but I studied Karate in Japan as a chodan in TKD and my kicks were much bettter than even those of many of the upper rank dan in Japan, so, since I don't think I'm anything special as far as TKD is concerned, I think my statement about TKD kicks vs Japanese Karate kicks has some foundation). Of course, I started learning TKD in the early '80s after TKD had already started to focus more on kicks than hand techniques (still 60:40 in my first dojang, though).

Joe Cheavens

----Original Message Follows---- From: "John Chambers" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 18:13:46 -0400 Dear Chris: The 1965 edition was the second printing of the earlier addition with virtually no difference in content from the 1959 edition.. John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Spiller" To: Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) >Jphn Chamber said: > >"Joseph: You are probably right about the surface of TaeKwonDo in the >late 1950s. I was promoted to black belt in early 1960s by the then 2nd >President of the Korea TaeKwonDo Association, Kang Ik Lee. >My Dan Certificate was signed by Lee and listed my promotion as: >TaeKwonDo / MooDukKwan. I also received a book titled: TAEKWON-DO written >by; Choi Hong Hi that was published in 1959. My instructor back then >was; Kim Wong Kyung Just food for thought. > >John Chambers" > >Mr. Chambers, do you still have the 1959 textbook you mentioned? I have >heard of it, but have never seen it (the earliest Gen. Choi book I have >is the 1965 text) and would be very interested in hearing what it is >comprised of. I was told by one gentleman that it's a pretty basic text >but can't recall if it even includes any of the older Shorokan forms in >it. From what I understand GM Park, Jong Soo is in several of the >pictures (as he is in the 1965 book). > >Anyway, thanks for whatever insight you can provide. > >Pax, > >Chris > >Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, >There's always laughter and good red wine. >At least I've always found it so. >Benedicamus Domino! >-Hilaire Belloc > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest