Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 03:00:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #324 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. re: japanese vs. korean swordmenship (Wes Heaps) 2. Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences (Robert Frankovich) 3. Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) (Christopher Spiller) 4. RE: Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences (Joseph Cheavens) 5. RE: Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) (Joseph Cheavens) 6. More on Tangsudo (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 7. RE: Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) (Jye nigma) 8. Re: Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences (Jye nigma) 9. Re: re: japanese vs. korean swordmenship (Jye nigma) 10. Re: More on Tangsudo (Ray) 11. RE: More on Tangsudo (Rick Clark) 12. More On Karate History (John Chambers) 13. Roundhouse kicks and TSD (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 14. Re: More on Tangsudo (John Chambers) 15. Re: Roundhouse kicks and TSD (Ray) 16. RE: Kendo/Gumdo differences (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:27:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Heaps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] re: japanese vs. korean swordmenship Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do u think think that a country as small as Korea, that is squeezed between japan and china could have remained sovereign as long as it did without excellent swordsmen to defend the nation ? In fact Korean metal is found to be better than Japanese metal for swords, because it doesn't have to be folded to be strong yet light.Some researchers claim that Koreans actually taught the Japanese the art of sword making, and in the true Japanese tradition they made it "better" and claimed they discovered it. Um if ya'll would like more info or sources just ask. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:37:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Frankovich To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Donahoo, I haven't heard of Master Abbott, yet, but I've only been involved with Haidong Gumdo for three years (and there aren't that many of us in Minnesota). The biggest difference that I've found in the area around me is that those following a more Kendo version have labeled themselves as "Kumdo." We are the only Haidong Gumdo school in Minnesota and don't practice the "sparring" version of the art. We've been taught and focus on the application side of cutting using forms and various cutting (paper, straw, bamboo) practices. Around here we are the only school to say "Gumdo" instead of "Kumdo." Rob Frankovich Pine Tree TKD Twin Cities Gumdo www.sparrowinstitute.org Message: 8 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kendo/Gumdo differences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for those members that have a background in either Japanese kendo or Korean Haidong gumdo. How much do the two arts differ? Aside from the fact that they call the same strikes, cuts, and defenses different names due to language, is one technically superior? I know it's hard, if not impossible to say one martial art is superior to another, but my understanding is that the Koreans didn't have much weapon use due to the fact that they were banned. In the Muye Dobo Tonji, didn't the Koreans basically hire the Japanese and Chinese to school them in military use of edged weapons? I guess my question is this. I am looking to study either the Japanese or Korean art of swordsmanship. I want the real deal - a traditional art form. Which has the deeper roots? Also has anyone heard of Master Dana Abbott? Does anyone use his programs or have taken his seminars? I have met and spoken with Master Abbott several times and he is a very nice man. I was wondering if anyone has some input? In devotion to the art, Mike Donahoo --------------------------------- Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 05:22:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John Chambers said: "Dear Chris: The 1965 edition was the second printing of the earlier addition with virtually no difference in content from the 1959 edition.. John Chambers" Hmm, isn't the 1959 text in Korean, as well? Gen. Choi authored his first text in Korean, IIRC, the 1965 text being his first English work. Pax, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 08:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Donahoo: You may also want to differentiate between Kendo and Kenjitsu when looking at Japanese sword schools. Kendo is a a sport, like Western fencing, and similarly is more focused on training for competition than on traditional swordsmanship with real weapons. Kenjitsu is the traditional study of Japanese swordsmanship. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Frankovich Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Mr. Donahoo, I haven't heard of Master Abbott, yet, but I've only been involved with Haidong Gumdo for three years (and there aren't that many of us in Minnesota). The biggest difference that I've found in the area around me is that those following a more Kendo version have labeled themselves as "Kumdo." We are the only Haidong Gumdo school in Minnesota and don't practice the "sparring" version of the art. We've been taught and focus on the application side of cutting using forms and various cutting (paper, straw, bamboo) practices. Around here we are the only school to say "Gumdo" instead of "Kumdo." Rob Frankovich Pine Tree TKD Twin Cities Gumdo www.sparrowinstitute.org Message: 8 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kendo/Gumdo differences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for those members that have a background in either Japanese kendo or Korean Haidong gumdo. How much do the two arts differ? Aside from the fact that they call the same strikes, cuts, and defenses different names due to language, is one technically superior? I know it's hard, if not impossible to say one martial art is superior to another, but my understanding is that the Koreans didn't have much weapon use due to the fact that they were banned. In the Muye Dobo Tonji, didn't the Koreans basically hire the Japanese and Chinese to school them in military use of edged weapons? I guess my question is this. I am looking to study either the Japanese or Korean art of swordsmanship. I want the real deal - a traditional art form. Which has the deeper roots? Also has anyone heard of Master Dana Abbott? Does anyone use his programs or have taken his seminars? I have met and spoken with Master Abbott several times and he is a very nice man. I was wondering if anyone has some input? In devotion to the art, Mike Donahoo --------------------------------- Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 08:59:14 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So, what kind of kicking techniques are covered in this textbook? Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Spiller Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 05:22:41 -0700 (PDT) John Chambers said: "Dear Chris: The 1965 edition was the second printing of the earlier addition with virtually no difference in content from the 1959 edition.. John Chambers" Hmm, isn't the 1959 text in Korean, as well? Gen. Choi authored his first text in Korean, IIRC, the 1965 text being his first English work. Pax, Chris Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, There's always laughter and good red wine. At least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino! -Hilaire Belloc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:17:55 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] More on Tangsudo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: I don't know if he ever set foot on Japan or Okinawa or not, but he certainly never studied Karate or Te on either of the islands. He probably learned a bit of karate from the Japanese in Manchuko and/or from Lee Won-kuk. My reply: Actually, GM Hwang said in his own history of Tangsudo that he learned karate from reading some books on the subject. His experience in the art apparently began under GM Lee at the end of the war. George wrote: >He smiled and said "oh, I know TSD, same as Kung Fu." I explained that while TSD is 40% Kung Fu, it certainly is not the same thing. He looked at me in confusion and stated that "they mean the same thing". I recalled the story on the meaning of Karate-Do and Tang Soo Do, and was then able to put it into a perspective where he could understand what I meant. My reply: Yep, so what he meant is that Tang dynasty Hand way (Tangsudo) is a reference to the wushu or gongfu developed in Tang dynasty China. The Chinese guy was just pointing out that the Okinawan Karate-do (Chinese hands way) and Japanese Karate-do (Empty hands way) are both derived from Chinese martial arts, as are kempo (or kenpo), kwon-bop, kuntao, and other such names. >Getting back to TKD, Doesn't ALL TKD descend from TSDMDK? Nope. It actually is much more closely related to Kongsudo (empty hands way), in other words Shotokan karate. Tangsudo (Chinese hands way) demonstrates a closer relationship to Okinawan karate. Choi's style in those early books was definitely more like Kongsudo, but it has been a while. Anyone remember offhand what kata he listed in his 1965 edition? Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: 1959 Gen. Choi textbook (was Re: Karate influence v.s. T'aekkyon influence) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net good question. Jye Joseph Cheavens wrote: So, what kind of kicking techniques are covered in this textbook? Joe Cheavens --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:02:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Kendo/Gumdo differences To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While we're on the topic of swordsmanship. What is the equivilent (if any) of iai-jutsu (sp?) in KMA? Jye --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:04:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: japanese vs. korean swordmenship To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net yeah I've heard that the korean martial arts weren't all that in ancient times yet they were known for their swordsmanship at least by the chinese. Jye Wes Heaps wrote: Do u think think that a country as small as Korea, that is squeezed between japan and china could have remained sovereign as long as it did without excellent swordsmen to defend the nation ? In fact Korean metal is found to be better than Japanese metal for swords, because it doesn't have to be folded to be strong yet light.Some researchers claim that Koreans actually taught the Japanese the art of sword making, and in the true Japanese tradition they made it "better" and claimed they discovered it. Um if ya'll would like more info or sources just ask. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] More on Tangsudo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > demonstrates a closer relationship to Okinawan karate. Choi's style in > those early books was definitely more like Kongsudo, but it has been a > while. Anyone remember offhand what kata he listed in his 1965 edition? My printing seems to be 1968, the copyright date is 1965. The patterns shown are "The Ch'ang-Hon School" forms (20 of them) and "The Sho-Rin and Sho-Rei Schools" forms (9 of them). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:18:34 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] More on Tangsudo To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dalkin, >Nope. It actually is much more closely related to Kongsudo >(empty hands way), in other words Shotokan karate. Tangsudo >(Chinese hands way) demonstrates a closer relationship to >Okinawan karate. Choi's style in those early books was >definitely more like Kongsudo, but it has been a while. >Anyone remember offhand what kata he listed in his 1965 edition? He had two sections on forms / hyung / kata - he listed the Chon-ji set and then Shotokan forms Pinan. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "John Chambers" To: Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:34:37 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] More On Karate History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Choi Hong Hi published his book "Taekwon-Do" in Korean in 1959 and then published his second edition (in English) in 1965. Both editions contained both hand and foot (kicking) techniques.(Published by: Daeha Publication Company, Seoul, Korea) I found an earlier publication on Karate by; S. Henry Robert, Esq; published by (The Magnum Publications, INC, at 26 West 47th Street, New York, N.Y.) This publication describes the development of Karate to wit: That, Karate was introduced into Japan in 1911 by "Funakoshi Gichin". That, Karate was traced back to the ancient Chinese art of Kempo. That, Kempo originated in the Liang Dynasty by a Buddhist Monk named; Taishi, who taught this art to the Monks as a self-defense against militant aggressors. There was much religious philosophy included into this self-defense art in both mental & physical strengthening. That, in time, their reputation became so widely known, that great numbers from China came to the Monks to study this art of unarmed self-defense. That, around 1600 A.D., the Chinese who occupied Okinawa, introduced the art of Kempo to the Okinawans, who combined the art of Kempo with their native form of unarmed self-defense, which in later years became Karate. Okinawa introduced their art of Kempo. That, the art of Savate (Foot-fighting) which can be traced back about five-thousand years, had a great influence on the Kempo Art, as was the antiquated hand-fighting as traced back to the Greek era around five-thousand years ago. Take this information as gospel or not, I am only quoting a publication of 1961. Hope this helps in some way. John Chambers --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:37:38 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Roundhouse kicks and TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: >Well, yes, TSD MDK was a very active player in the creation of TKD in that a large % of the early TKDers came from TSD MDK. My response: Good point Ray! From what I can tell, most of those (like Hee-Il Cho) got into TKD through the military. Ray wrote: >One article I read indicated that the roundhouse kick was not taught until the late 1950s. People fighting in JKA tournaments 'invented' the roundhouse thru simple sloppy kicking techniques... except they found that it was an effective and powerful kick. I wish I could find that article again. I keep thinking it was in JAMA and I recall Dakin asking me to cite the reference before, but I can't seem to find it. My response: Yep, and I'll have to keep asking you for that. :) The roundhouse was certainly around before that. I have a jujutsu book from 1904 that demonstrates it, and a Savate article from the 1890s with very pretty pictures of roundhouse and crescent kicks. Since Savate stole them from Muay Thai in the early 1800s, that pushes those kicks even further back. :) Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "John Chambers" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] More on Tangsudo Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray: I have the 1965 edition of Choi's style, which does teach both striking, kicking techniques as well as 1-step, 2-step & 3-step sparring. His forms were referred to as "Patters" included: Yul-kok, Chung-gun, Toi-gye, Hwa-rang, Chung-mu, Kwang-gye, Poun, Kae-baek, Yu-sin, Chung-jang, Ul-ghi, Sam-il, Ko-dang, Choi-yong,Se-jong, Tong-il. If you need any other information from my edition of Choi Hong Hi's Taekwon-Do book, I will try to help. John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] More on Tangsudo >> demonstrates a closer relationship to Okinawan karate. Choi's style in >> those early books was definitely more like Kongsudo, but it has been a >> while. Anyone remember offhand what kata he listed in his 1965 edition? > > My printing seems to be 1968, the copyright date is 1965. > > The patterns shown are "The Ch'ang-Hon School" forms (20 of them) and > "The Sho-Rin and Sho-Rei Schools" forms (9 of them). > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Roundhouse kicks and TSD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My response: > > Yep, and I'll have to keep asking you for that. :) The roundhouse was > certainly > around before that. I have a jujutsu book from 1904 that demonstrates > it, and a > Savate article from the 1890s with very pretty pictures of roundhouse > and crescent > kicks. Since Savate stole them from Muay Thai in the early 1800s, that > pushes those kicks even further back. :) Agreed that muay thai and savate had their flavor of roundhouse kicks, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the karate-ish styles. I have several rather old JuJutsu books, but unfortunately none show any percussion techniques. I checked thru Funakoshi's early works and works on Okinawan te and don't see the roundhouse present, but it is there by the time Funakoshi does his later writings. Ohshima writes about the mawashigeri in Notes on Training, "Mawashigeri is a very sophisticated, very new technique compared to techniques like fumikomi and uraken. It is a new variation of maegeri." FWIW... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kendo/Gumdo differences Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Donahoo, I have not taken any courses from Shihan Abbott but he seemed like a very nice man and very knowledgeable. I spoke to him about coming to our school but decided it wasn't a direction we wanted to go at this time. A buddy of mine did his chanbara course and had nothing but good things to say. http://www.samuraisports.com/chanbara/index.html I forget how much he charges for the chanbara course but it wasn't out of line compared to what it costs to bring a high ranking master level down. And if you work it right, you can break even or perhaps make a dime when it's all done & said on a seminar wrapped into his certification course. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest