Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:02:21 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #330 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Blow to wallet (steven riggs) 2. RE: Blow to wallet (Thomas Gordon) 3. RE: Blow to wallet (Thomas Gordon) 4. RE: Blow to wallet (Thomas Gordon) 5. RE: Blow to Wallet (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 6. Re: Blow to wallet (WTSDA Bruce) 7. RE: Blow to wallet (michael tomlinson) 8. RE: Blow to wallet (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 9. Re: Blow to wallet (Ray) 10. RE: Blow to wallet (s. yates) 11. RE: Blow to wallet (s. yates) 12. Re: Blow to wallet (s. yates) 13. RE: Blow to wallet (Jay O'Connor) 14. Re: Blow to wallet (Jay O'Connor) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:02:24 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would agree that there are many resources available. Some expensive and others not so much. I have been pleasently surprised at the Martial Arts Teachers Assoc. with John Graden. For just $24.95 per month there is a great deal offered from advertising assistance to prepared letters, to video tips to videos on training issues and the list goes on. It is one of the best deals in town for the money. S Riggs "s. yates" wrote: Ray, That article by Tom Callos was written in 2003. There are many resources out there, we just have to look for them. I have paid for some and found some, all the same, it is what has helped me form a great school. Not because I say so, 165 families tell me. Do some more research with these companies if you wish to take your studio to the next level. Respectfully, Scott Yates --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:16:51 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry, If $125 is average, shouldn't a full time school with a professional facility and higher ranked instructors charge more? Frankly, we aren't charging that yet but I think we're worth it. Think on it, some high ranking master level instructor is charging $35-45 a month while a low ranking black belt is charging 3-6 times that and getting it. Why? Because the low ranking instructor is a complete sell out.....no, no, I mean the low ranking instructor understands the value of martial arts. The high ranking instructor has a day job because they can't make ends meet with their school all the while complaining about the nice location and new car/home the much lower ranked/experienced "sell out" across town has. Tonight I had a lady tell me she couldn't afford our classes. I pointed across the street (literally) at the YMCA and told her classes were about a 1/3 there. She wrote us a check. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:16:56 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Riggs, I know this wasn't addressed to me but I've personally dealt with some of the same things. "One area I struggle with is that I am one that charges to low but I don't know how to make the changes. Nobody is going to stay with me if I suddenly double or triple their rates." So don't - we didn't. We went up $10 a year for the existing and charge the new people the new rate. We told the existing students what we were doing so they knew they were getting a good deal. Also, if they leave, they come back at the new rate. In regards to the local school not teaching quality martial arts, don't get hung up on what they charge. The root of their problem is lack of instruction...not contracts, expensive programs, etc. People see poorly trained students and then get side tracked on things that have no bearing on the core problem. Core problem is the instruction at your competition sucks. What gaudy uniform they wear, how much their paying, length of contract, etc is really irreverent. Now, if you can do better - do so, let people know (so they'll come), and charge accordingly. And for those reading this and rolling their eyes, I'm not talking about competing with the oldest profession. I'm talking about charging a fair rate for a professional service. If you're stuck charging $35, $45, $65 a month...perhaps that's all your worth. Is that insulting? Don't be mad at me, I'm not the one that set the value of your services. Last thought for this email, the lawn guy does our yard in one hour. He takes care of our lawn twice a month. For that, I pay him $200. In other words, $100 a hour. He does a great job for us so I don't mind paying for it. Assume you charge $40 a month, offer six hours a week for juniors, and have 20 students. That's 24 hours per month. 20 juniors x $40 a month / 24 hours = $40 a hour. Our lawn guy makes 2.5 times more than you do. Is cutting grass & hedging bushes worth more than your services? I hardly think so. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:17:04 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net MAIA doesn't offer collection services so I'd think their numbers are pretty good. Also, that was done in 2004 so inflation would make that number closer to $131. I wouldn't be surprised if the real national average was $120-140. In regards to EFC and companies like that, although a different subject, I'm a pretty big believer they are the ones pushing the hardest to do away with testing fees and "figure it in on your monthly fee." That way they get the biggest EFT amount (and bigger commission). Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 05:40:13 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: , Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Blow to Wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tim mentioned just no longer paying and hoping the school will relinquish the contract. That sounds like good advice, but only because the legal fees might not make it worth it for the school to come after you. I have a feeling that if it did get to court, you would be paying the contract plus legal fees. In the 1990s there was health club legislation that stopped clubs and schools from charging if someone wasn't coming to the club. Nowadays it seems that the emphasis is on the contract, and that the customer typically has 3 days to recover from the sales job and cancel the contract. After that, it is a binding agreement and must be paid in full. It is reprehensible but Ray is right, what goes around comes around. A friend of mine used contracts and had a wonderful school very quickly (60 black belt contracts at opening = $180,000 to buy mirrors, equipment and mats) but over the next three years he alienated not onl his customers but also his instructors with his attitude, and now sells real estate instead. At the same time, this sort of behavior obviously hurts the martial arts profession, and what I find most bizarre is that it is often the folks in NAPMA, who claim they are developing the profession, that encourage these sorts of contracts. Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "WTSDA Bruce" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 05:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am fairly new to this site 6 months or so, and I have not seen a thread with so much activity, struck a cord I think. When people I know ask me which "karate" is the best, I tell them to shop for a school, just as a HS student would look for a college to attend. Quality of the education and the cost are both factors. Check out the schools instructor by going to classes, and take a intro. Then check out the payment policies. Look at several schools (including ours) and compare. Sometimes class times are important. There are many factors to consider, before you sign. It appears the father/mother were not immature, just not very good shoppers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael tomlinson" To: Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:02 PM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet >I live in this area and trust me...160 a month is way out of line with the >average prices around this area.... > Michael Tomlinson > >>From: "Gordon" >>Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>To: >>Subject: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet >>Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:41:10 -0500 >> >>The Orlando Sentinel. I clicked on their business link. They have a >>record >>number of building permits. Disney posted a profit of 1.1 Billion. A >>local >>hospital is expanding. They have the same illegal immigration problems >>everyone else has. Gas prices are down this morning due to thwarting the >>terrorist plot. The stock market is up. Life is good in Orlando. >>$160.00 >>a month? Why not? If your market will bare it and your program is worth >>it, why not? Nothing shady here, just a stupid father, that maybe, >>shouldn't have a credit card. Maybe we should teach parenting and >>household >>budgeting (another life skill). I think the father should go to the >>daughter's classes. I think HE needs it more. Honestly, I wish Victory >>Martial Arts success. >> >>Gordon Okerstrom >>_______________________________________________ >>The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>Standard disclaimers apply >>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:02:10 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net True,, I AM a proffesional school teacher...but you still aren't going to pay Los Angeles housing prices in Alabama....my point is that in this area I don't know of any Martial Arts School that charges 160 dollars a month for a five year old to do TKD.. if 140 is the national average then this is over the average but if you look at this area's economy overall it doesn't support that kind of pricing.....I hope everyone makes a good living at whatever they do but there is also a marketing saying....."are you trying to get rich on one sale or on many sales"....and again I don't agree with pulling the plug and letting a five year old make your decisions but IMO I can't imagine even having a three year contract for a five year old....seems shady to me... Michael Tomlinson >From: "s. yates" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:50:04 -0700 (PDT) > >Hate to break it to you Mike. The national average for MA lessons is about >140 a month right now. > > When was the last time you saw a doctor charging $5 a visit, or lawyer, >or mechanic, or phsycologist, or teacher. What is with this mentality that >MA instructors are not supposed to charge what their worth? The better >doctors, lawyers, mechanics, anything, get paid more. > > Average teacher pay in NJ is @45,000 per year. School with 75 students >at $50 per month equals $45,000. Now subtract all your expenses, where does >that leave the instructor who puts their heart and soul in their teaching? >Are they not worth it?. > > Not only that, a teacher works their job full time. I've never met a >part time lawyer, doctor, any professional, period. I have worked for 23 >years to become the martial artist I am and I currently have over 230 >students and my school generates about $490,000 per year, and I have yet to >give one belt away or dilute any of my programs and MA's. > > I apologize if some people cannot conceptualize this idea of being a >professional MAist, but it is real and you people who have dedicated your >lives to becoming good at DESERVE IT! > > Thanks for listening........... > Scott Yates > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Scott, There are problems with the examples you list as a comparison to Martial Arts Instruction. "When was the last time you saw a doctor charging $5 a visit, or lawyer, or mechanic, or physiologist, or teacher." None of these professionals are charging you for group instruction (except maybe the teacher assuming you don't mean private lessons). It is a one-on-one, personalized, private session. That is how they justify exorbitant fees. If any of them put me in a room with twenty other people and tried to counsel me while charging each $100/hour, I would have a problem that. "Average teacher pay in NJ is @45,000 per year. School with 75 students at $50 per month equals $45,000. Now subtract all your expenses," A full-time teacher in public schools teaches 20-25 students five days a week, while most MA students only attend 2-3 days a week. The teacher may use their own money (as many do) to buy supplies that the school district can't/won't supply. "where does that leave the instructor who puts their heart and soul in their teaching? Are they not worth it?." ABSOLUTELY!!! Teaching is (in my opinion) the most honorable and least appreciated profession today. Where would those doctors, lawyers and mechanics be if not for teachers to show them the way! There is no comparison. Unfortunately, in the business world of the free economy, prices are driven by supply & demand as well as perceived value (quality of product and service). If the local market accepts $160/month for group martial arts instruction, then there is no problem (except the occasional anomaly). But if someone finds better or equal service at a lower price, they are likely to take it. How do you keep you customers from jumping back and forth between the low cost providers? Long term commitments by contract or loyalty. I personally prefer loyalty over contract. Victor hapkikid@yahoo.co m To 08/10/2006 08:50 the_dojang@martialartsresource.net PM cc Subject Please respond to RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet the_dojang@martia lartsresource.net Hate to break it to you Mike. The national average for MA lessons is about 140 a month right now. When was the last time you saw a doctor charging $5 a visit, or lawyer, or mechanic, or phsycologist, or teacher. What is with this mentality that MA instructors are not supposed to charge what their worth? The better doctors, lawyers, mechanics, anything, get paid more. Average teacher pay in NJ is @45,000 per year. School with 75 students at $50 per month equals $45,000. Now subtract all your expenses, where does that leave the instructor who puts their heart and soul in their teaching? Are they not worth it?. Not only that, a teacher works their job full time. I've never met a part time lawyer, doctor, any professional, period. I have worked for 23 years to become the martial artist I am and I currently have over 230 students and my school generates about $490,000 per year, and I have yet to give one belt away or dilute any of my programs and MA's. I apologize if some people cannot conceptualize this idea of being a professional MAist, but it is real and you people who have dedicated your lives to becoming good at DESERVE IT! Thanks for listening........... Scott Yates --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If $125 is average, shouldn't a full time school with a professional > facility and higher ranked instructors charge more? ??? -If- $125 is the monthly average for one person on a long-term contract then I'm sure that number -is- highly influenced by the full time schools with a professional facility and higher ranked instructors. No problem with that, imho. I have no problem with people charging what the market will support. The question was 'is $140 the monthly average across the US for one person on a long-term contract'. That would mean that for all the dojangs charging $50 or $75 or $100 a month across the US, there must be a lot of them charging $200 or $250 or $300 a month to pull up the nationwide average. Fine, if they can get it. But I don't see very many dojangs getting that per month from each student. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:48:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "but if you look at this area's economy overall it doesn't support that kind of pricing" You mean the doctors, lawyers, colleges, and other professionals are cheaper in your area too? Do the pharmacys charge less? How about Home Depot or Staples? Do they conform to this thinking too???? Just food for thought.... SY --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "None of these professionals are charging you for group instruction(except maybe the teacher assuming you don't mean private lessons). It is a one-on-one, personalized, private session. That is how they justify exorbitant fees. If any of them put me in a room with twenty other people and tried to counsel me while charging each $100/hour, I would have a problem that." Right. Which is why I do not charge 100-200 per hour, I charge that per month. I get 100 per hour for private lessons, and average one per week. "A full-time teacher in public schools teaches 20-25 students five days a week, while most MA students only attend 2-3 days a week. The teacher may use their own money (as many do) to buy supplies that the school district can't/won't supply." Yet we pay thousands in school tax per year, whats the difference? "But if someone finds better or equal service at a lower price, they are likely to take it. How do you keep you customers from jumping back and forth between the low cost providers?" By providing them with the best instruction, facility, service, care, and family atmosphere possible, just like any other successful business. "Long term commitments by contract or loyalty. I personally prefer loyalty over contract." Me too, I just help them stay on track. How many students do you lose a month? How many students do you sign a month? Do you even keep track? Do you count your trial members? Keep ACCURATE stats to know how loyal your students REALLY are. We just tend to remember the ones who stick around. Keep real numbers and you will realize just like I did. No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care. SY --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:06:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ""That would mean that for all the dojangs charging $50 or $75 or $100 a month across the US, there must be a lot of them charging $200 or $250 or $300 a month to pull up the nationwide average. Fine, if they can get it. But I don't see very many dojangs getting that per month from each student." Why, because your not? How many dojangs have you visited in your state? What do you base your assessment on? Why do people charge SO LITTLE for martial arts lessons? SY --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:08:02 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Cc: "s. yates" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ---- "s. yates" wrote: > "but if you look at this area's economy overall it doesn't support that kind of pricing" > > You mean the doctors, lawyers, colleges, and other professionals are cheaper in your area too? Do the pharmacys charge less? How about Home Depot or Staples? Do they conform to this thinking too???? > > Just food for thought.... As a professional (software development) I've contracted in various parts of the country (raning fro low COL like NewMexico to high COL like Washington D.C.) and my hourly pay rate has varied significantly with locale. And in living in those places I've noticed a pretty good variation in the prices of services and goods as you mention Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:53:17 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ---- "s. yates" wrote: > ""That would mean that for all the dojangs charging $50 or $75 or $100 a month across the US, there must be a lot of them charging $200 or $250 or $300 a month to pull up the nationwide average. Fine, if they can get it. But I don't see very many dojangs getting that per month from each student." > > Why, because your not? > > How many dojangs have you visited in your state? > > What do you base your assessment on? > > Why do people charge SO LITTLE for martial arts lessons? Just as a point of reference, most people who provide a service of teaching do *not* do it like MA. They are either employed by the state as a public institution or they are employed by a larger business of which the instruction is just part of the total pacakge Or look at it this way Music teacher - Teach in schools. - Teach through music store - Teach privately Very, very few musicians, even those who are very good, can actually make a living teaching privately. (Unless they are famous enough to charge mucho money, in which case they are probably making a living through other forms of income anyway) Most people who teach privately also do so either in their own home or the student's home. So off the bat, the idea of a MA school is basically falling under that thir cataegory of private teaching, which is freaking hard to do anyway. Then you add in the expense of maintaining the physical environment (a dojang and gear). Then you factor out the fact that MA is not something everyone is interested in anyway. You have a business model pretty much designed to fail nad only a very fer can actually earn a living in it. But like every business they have to tailor there rates to what the market will bear Take care, Jay --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest