Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:42:23 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #331 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Blow to wallet (Ray) 2. Re: Blow to wallet (Jay O'Connor) 3. Re: Blow to wallet (Ray) 4. Re: Blow to wallet (s. yates) 5. National average dues (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Re: Blow to wallet (michael tomlinson) 7. RE: Blow to wallet (michael tomlinson) 8. Loyalty (dave weller) 9. Pay as you go... (John Haney) 10. blow to the wallet (James Allison) 11. Re: Pay as you go... (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 12. toooo many (Ray) 13. Re: Blow to Wallet (Kevin Janisse) 14. Re: blow to the wallet (John Chambers) 15. Re: Blow to wallet (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "but if you look at this area's economy overall it doesn't support that kind > of pricing" > > You mean the doctors, lawyers, colleges, and other professionals are > cheaper in your area too? Do the pharmacys charge less? How about Home > Depot or Staples? In general, yes, prices for all the above can vary based on the area of the country one lives. > Just food for thought.... Like you said. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:36:38 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Why do people charge SO LITTLE for martial arts lessons? Supply and demand. And for what it's worth, the numbers you guys toss around for monthly rates are *significantly* higher than what I made as a private music teacher or then I was paying for music lessons for my son. Most music teachers with college degrees and years of experience dream they can have it as nice as you guys are complaining about. It's all a matter of what your customer think is worth paying for your service. You can charge $50/hr per student per class, but if npbody wants to pay it *shurg* nobody is going to pay it. Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 09:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ""That would mean that for all the dojangs charging $50 or $75 or $100 a > month across the US, there must be a lot of them charging $200 or $250 or > $300 a month to pull up the nationwide average. Fine, if they can get it. > But I don't see very many dojangs getting that per month from each student." > > Why, because your not? Noooo, because others are not. > How many dojangs have you visited in your state? Just in this state alone??? Umm, hundreds perhaps. But then I travel a bit, so I've had the opportunity to visit more outside of my state. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:14:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jay, Trust me I am not complaining, just tired of people conplaining or whining about they cannot make a living at MA, when people all over the world are doing it, ligitimately. SY --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:41:49 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] National average dues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > I have no problem with people charging what the market will > support. The > question was 'is $140 the monthly average across the US for one > person on > a long-term contract'. That would mean that for all the dojangs > charging > $50 or $75 or $100 a month across the US, there must be a lot of them > charging $200 or $250 or $300 a month to pull up the nationwide > average. > Fine, if they can get it. But I don't see very many dojangs > getting that per > month from each student. Hello Ray: I am thinking the National average they speak of may be based on the dues the schools within these companies charge. I don't know, but I am relatively sure EFC and the likes have not gone trough the trouble of checking all of the schools in the US. Like you, I think there are an awful lot of schools that charge a lot less. To get the National average up that high while counting ALL of these schools, some schools HAVE to charge unbelievable fees. That may not be so if they base their findings only based on the dues the schools within their respective groups charge. In any case, I DO believe that we should charge a fair value, and the market will soon decide if your assumption of your value is too high. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:44:03 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Totally agree.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "WTSDA Bruce" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 05:19:56 -0500 > >I am fairly new to this site 6 months or so, and I have not seen a thread >with so much activity, struck a cord I think. > >When people I know ask me which "karate" is the best, I tell them to shop >for a school, just as a HS student would look for a college to attend. >Quality of the education and the cost are both factors. Check out the >schools instructor by going to classes, and take a intro. Then check out >the payment policies. Look at several schools (including ours) and >compare. Sometimes class times are important. There are many factors to >consider, before you sign. > >It appears the father/mother were not immature, just not very good >shoppers. > >----- Original Message ----- From: "michael tomlinson" > >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:02 PM >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet > > >>I live in this area and trust me...160 a month is way out of line with the >>average prices around this area.... >> Michael Tomlinson >> >>>From: "Gordon" >>>Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>To: >>>Subject: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet >>>Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:41:10 -0500 >>> >>>The Orlando Sentinel. I clicked on their business link. They have a >>>record >>>number of building permits. Disney posted a profit of 1.1 Billion. A >>>local >>>hospital is expanding. They have the same illegal immigration problems >>>everyone else has. Gas prices are down this morning due to thwarting the >>>terrorist plot. The stock market is up. Life is good in Orlando. >>>$160.00 >>>a month? Why not? If your market will bare it and your program is worth >>>it, why not? Nothing shady here, just a stupid father, that maybe, >>>shouldn't have a credit card. Maybe we should teach parenting and >>>household >>>budgeting (another life skill). I think the father should go to the >>>daughter's classes. I think HE needs it more. Honestly, I wish Victory >>>Martial Arts success. >>> >>>Gordon Okerstrom >>>_______________________________________________ >>>The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >>>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>>Standard disclaimers apply >>>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >>_______________________________________________ >>The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>Standard disclaimers apply >>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:14:01 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net the cost of living in a given area has a certain average across the board...in our area it's less than what was stated earlier..that's why I made my comments on the 160 a month for the central Florida area....so yes we probably make less per average than other states...so it is relative...and inside of that relativity if your prices are way out of whack to other competing venues then eventually you will probably fail....for instance...in our area at home depot a piece of 4 by 8 plywood 5 eight's goes for about 15 dollars....if I go up the road and they have the same type plywood for 50 dollars a sheet,, well how many people do you think will buy it?? Only the ones that don't know the difference....and when these people find out the difference do you think they will ever come back to your store??? Point is...everyone lives and functions within the market parameters of their given demographics...if you can be the exception to this rule I applaud you ....but it doesn't happen that way.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "s. yates" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:48:49 -0700 (PDT) > >"but if you look at this area's economy overall it doesn't support that >kind of pricing" > > You mean the doctors, lawyers, colleges, and other professionals are >cheaper in your area too? Do the pharmacys charge less? How about Home >Depot or Staples? Do they conform to this thinking too???? > > Just food for thought.... > > SY > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: dave weller Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:15:27 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Loyalty Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Aug 11, 2006, at 11:02 AM, Mr Yates wrote: > Keep ACCURATE stats to know how loyal your students REALLY are. We > just tend to remember the ones who stick around. Um, the ones that stick around ARE the loyal ones. 100.00 per hour for private lessons?? Wow, I get a private lesson every time I am the only student to show up on a Football/basketball/too hot/too cold evening. Maybe my teacher figures _I'M_ worth something too!! I'd happily pay my teacher whatever fee he asked, and several years ago we _begged_ him to charge more. He raised the fee 5.00 per month! If we only judge things (like martial arts instruction) only by what they cost, we lose sight of their true value. The local Krotty guy charges 120.00 per month. One class a week. There are NO adults, only kids in brightly colored uniforms flinging foam weapons around and having their Mom's think they are Billy Bad- asses. We are glad he is there, gives the folks who WANT to learn that crap a place to hang out. If a student leaves our school because he is not learning to flip 'chuck's at green belt level, well, adios! Thanks dave weller --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John Haney To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Pay as you go... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone charge by rank? Would a system that charges based on the student's rank ease and balance the argument of contract vs. no contract and what are acceptable fees? Has anyone thought about charging students based on the skills being taught to them? Maybe a progressive scale, something like 10th gup (white belt) $20 a month for three months or the minimum time required. 9th gup to 6th gup $40 a month for nine months or the minimum time required. 5th gup to 3rd gup $60 a month for a year or the minimum time required. 2nd gup to 1st gup $80 a month for a year or the minimum time required. So forth and so on… Or for those full time business types… 10th gup (white belt) $40 a month for three months or the minimum time required. 9th gup to 6th gup $80 a month for nine months or the minimum time required. 5th gup to 3rd gup $120 a month for a year or the minimum time required. 2nd gup to 1st gup $160 a month for a year or the minimum time required. Cho dan to 2nd dan $200 a month for two years or the minimum time required. So forth and so on… Just a silly thought that pop into my head, John Haney – look Dana, I'm posting! --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1˘/min. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "James Allison" To: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:03:31 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] blow to the wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's all about perceived value. Mr. Terry mentioned that Grandmaster Ji was charging three times the average instructor when he first started teaching in the states. And, do you want to know why? Because, that is what he learned from his teacher Choi, Yong Sul. Grandmaster Ji told me once that Choi charged monthly what the Taekwondo schools charged yearly. I read where Soki Hatsumi of the Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu school had the same situation with his teacher, his training was very expensive. Was it because there teachers were better? Maybe, maybe not. But they did feel strongly enough that what they had to offer had more value. And these are just a few examples. Like Master Yates, I run a very profitable martial arts school. I teach Hapkido full time. I have classes five days a week. We charge up to $400 a month for family memberships and require 3 year commitments. Now get this, our county, not city, population is 60,000. I have 200 active students and we are still growing. The point of all of this is. You are what you project. You become what you focus on the must. I will tell you this from experience. It is harder to leave on 20,000 a year than it is to make $400,000 teaching martial arts. Just think if everyone out there was making a better living teaching martial arts and we could actually raise the level of professionalize above little league coaches status ( no offense to little league ) what good we could do for the martial arts. Take it for what it is worth (which is a lot to me), James Allison --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pay as you go... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My experience has been much better for me personally. My school gave us (my family) 2 weeks of free lessons, then offered us a 6 month membership for beginners for $500 each. (payment plan available) At any point we could opt for the Black Belt Club which covers unlimited lessons until reaching black belt for $3500 each which is discounted by $500 for the original 6 month membership. (again, payment plan available) I have no problem making a long term commitment to a Martial Arts Instructor that I have come to know and respect. Especially when the cost is for unlimited lessons until I reach my first black belt (temporary), and assuming that I can cancel it if I should move away from the area. Still, the service provided must be worth the cost in the eyes of the buyer. For those who have no long term goal, unstable situation or are just unwilling to commit, your plan would be a great option. Victor jwh542@yahoo.com 08/11/2006 02:42 To PM the_dojang@martialartsresource.net cc Please respond to Subject the_dojang@martia [The_Dojang] Pay as you go... lartsresource.net Does anyone charge by rank? Would a system that charges based on the student's rank ease and balance the argument of contract vs. no contract and what are acceptable fees? Has anyone thought about charging students based on the skills being taught to them? Maybe a progressive scale, something like 10th gup (white belt) $20 a month for three months or the minimum time required. 9th gup to 6th gup $40 a month for nine months or the minimum time required. 5th gup to 3rd gup $60 a month for a year or the minimum time required. 2nd gup to 1st gup $80 a month for a year or the minimum time required. So forth and so on… Or for those full time business types… 10th gup (white belt) $40 a month for three months or the minimum time required. 9th gup to 6th gup $80 a month for nine months or the minimum time required. 5th gup to 3rd gup $120 a month for a year or the minimum time required. 2nd gup to 1st gup $160 a month for a year or the minimum time required. Cho dan to 2nd dan $200 a month for two years or the minimum time required. So forth and so on… Just a silly thought that pop into my head, John Haney – look Dana, I'm posting! --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] toooo many Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Because, that is > what he learned from his teacher Choi, Yong Sul. Grandmaster Ji told me > once that Choi charged monthly what the Taekwondo schools charged > yearly. Mr. Allison is right on the money (pun intended). :) Funny... I once asked Gm Ji about a well known taekwondo master in Korea, the head of TKD MDK. Did he know him? He turned up his nose, and said, "No. Tooooo many taekwondo people there." Made me laugh... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:02:03 -0700 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Blow to Wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Master Scott, I have very much enjoyed your comments and insight. Master Ken has taught you well. I agree that the MA professional should be compensated for his time and effort and the old school of thinking needs to be modified to today’s standards (non one has paid me with chickens lately…lol). I am not the only one to want a successful business in sharing what my passion is….Martial Arts. Unfortunately I have boxed myself into a corner by starting a family before starting a business. Your example of taking 8 years to get things going is realistic. When I was your age I SHOULD of started the business aspect instead of waiting until I’m…..well older. What I need to do is get the right plan in motion to be where I need to be so I am not living in an apartment hoping to get another student this month while teaching full time. Many comments about cost of living, and high/middle/low income areas do have an impact. Starting a school in a town of 2,500 people will not cut it. There is a point of realism to be maintained. A little homework and relocation goes a long way and I am certain you have much advice on this point you could share. As far as value vs. cost, I have had people NOT show up to see the value in what I am able to teach BECAUSE of how little I am charging. These same potential students are going to schools whose instructors are coming to me to teach them….Go figure? (I am currently operating out of a church gym which governs how much I can charge.) It is the old saying “you get what you pay for” mentality. It may not be true but if people believe it then is does not matter what great deal one can offer. Thanks again. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/416 - Release Date: 8/10/2006 --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "John Chambers" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] blow to the wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:07:33 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In response to comments made by James Allison: Your dojang must be in a very special high income area surrounded by doctors, lawyers or celebrities. I cannot imagine anyone who would pay $400.00 a month for lessons with a three year required contract! If your head instructor was Bruce Lee himself, it is still extremely excessive. $400.00 a month for private lessons,..maybe!? If you can and are receiving that kind of compensation for your lessons, more power to you! John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Allison" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 7:03 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] blow to the wallet > It's all about perceived value. Mr. Terry mentioned that Grandmaster Ji > was charging three times the average instructor when he first started > teaching in the states. And, do you want to know why? Because, that is > what he learned from his teacher Choi, Yong Sul. Grandmaster Ji told me > once that Choi charged monthly what the Taekwondo schools charged > yearly. I read where Soki Hatsumi of the Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu school > had the same situation with his teacher, his training was very > expensive. Was it because there teachers were better? Maybe, maybe not. > But they did feel strongly enough that what they had to offer had more > value. And these are just a few examples. > > Like Master Yates, I run a very profitable martial arts school. I teach > Hapkido full time. I have classes five days a week. We charge up to $400 > a month for family memberships and require 3 year commitments. Now get > this, our county, not city, population is 60,000. I have 200 active > students and we are still growing. The point of all of this is. You are > what you project. You become what you focus on the must. I will tell you > this from experience. It is harder to leave on 20,000 a year than it is > to make $400,000 teaching martial arts. > > Just think if everyone out there was making a better living teaching > martial arts and we could actually raise the level of professionalize > above little league coaches status ( no offense to little league ) what > good we could do for the martial arts. > > Take it for what it is worth (which is a lot to me), > James Allison > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:23:28 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > You mean the doctors, lawyers, colleges, and other professionals are > > cheaper in your area too? Do the pharmacys charge less? How about Home > > Depot or Staples? > >In general, yes, prices for all the above can vary based on the area of >the country one lives. > > > Just food for thought.... > the cost of living in a given area has a certain average across the board...in our area it's less than what was stated earlier..that's why I made my comments on the 160 a month for the central Florida area....so yes we probably make less per average than other states...so it is relative...and inside of that relativity if your prices are way out of whack to other competing venues then eventually you will probably fail....for instance...in our area at home depot a piece of 4 by 8 plywood 5 eight's goes for about 15 dollars....if I go up the road and they have the same type plywood for 50 dollars a sheet,, well how many people do you think will buy it?? Only the ones that don't know the difference....and when these people find out the difference do you think they will ever come back to your store??? Point is...everyone lives and functions within the market parameters of their given demographics...if you can be the exception to this rule I applaud you ....but it doesn't happen that way.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest