Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:22:17 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #334 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Yes, another post about Blow to Wallet.... (Thomas Gordon) 2. RE: Tired of the dillusion (julie) 3. Re: RE: Tired of the dillusion (s. yates) 4. Re: RE: Tired of the dillusion (Steven Berkowitz) 5. Re: prices (Lila Ralston) 6. training curriculum (freddie bishop) 7. Re: Re: prices (Alida D'med) 8. Re: Re: prices (Jye nigma) 9. Re: RE: Tired of the dillusion (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: prices (s. yates) 11. Re: More about the wallet (Jye nigma) 12. Re: Re: prices (Jye nigma) 13. Re: training curriculum (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Yes, another post about Blow to Wallet.... Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Morgan, If you're happy with offering 5 classes a week to 25 people - kudos to you. And I don't mean that as a slight, sincerely. Different strokes for different folks make the world go round. :) My bride left a full time career with benefits in order to spend more time with our family and to teach martial arts full time. We intend to offer the very best we possibly can. We also intend to offer the very best to our children that we can meaning the income from her full time job must be replaced as well as the medical insurance. I see some instructors soooo worried about not "selling out" they lose sight of their selling out their own family to having less opportunities and/or an absentee parent trying to work a full time job and run a "real deal, by golly I'll never sell out" martial art school. Some of the same instructors with burned out lights, torn carpet, wore out mats, and trying to figure out how their going to afford getting to the next seminar that is out of driving distance all while juggling their kids school clothes. One of the supposed "real deal" martial art guys in our area has their children on reduced lunches at school. Talk about having some screwed up priorities!! Pass - no thanks. The point is you can make a decent living (not a just an existence) teaching martial arts without losing your morals and without mass producing slop and giving away belts. I'm not telling part time schools to go full time and charge $300 a month - but I am sayin a fella can and should make a good living offer a valuable service to the community. Amen. In regards to the article I sent it, as I've already said, I think anyone selling a 3 year contract to a five year old is absurd. I think a parent buying into that is stupid. And I'm never surprised when the shark eats the goldfish. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "julie" To: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:52:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Tired of the dillusion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net SY states: Once again, ask the doc next time you visit him what the visit really cost including the insurance they scammed out of you. ****************************** Okay, I've stayed out of this post since I don't teach MA, however, I am a doctor, and I am very offended by this statement. Gee, Mr. Yates, what makes you think that we are scamming insurance? I charge fees based on RVU's = relative value units. These RVU's are based on the governments & insurance companies opinions of what individual services are worth. I don't get to charge what *I* am worth, since the insurance companies decide what they are going to pay, anyway. A "standard" exam in my office is $65 (which usually takes about t 30-45"). Because of mandatory write-offs & such, I usually collect about 70% of that fee. Am I only worth 70% - I don't think so, but that is what I get. "Scamming insurance" is also called "insurance fraud", and I, personally, don't think a few bucks is worth huge fines and jail time! SO, charge what you want you want for your MA classes. Don't compare Dr's fees, however, and don't say that we "scam" people, because many of us don't! If you want to make a killing teaching people MA -- great! Have fun and do a great job! I would rather help people live healthy lives than worry about how much the next guy is making. Besides, as far as I know, you don't have any regulating bodies out there breathing down your neck making sure that you aren't the one "scamming" people! >>>$80,000 a year JOB(just over broke)<<<< Where do you live, that you can't live on $80K /year? That is an OUTSTANDING income! I certainly don't come close to that, but I'm still new in my office. However, I don't know of many people in my area who are making $80K/year and saying that they are "just over broke". Come to think of it, I don't know of many people around here making $80K/year. Okay, now *I'm* done ranting. Just please, Mr. Yates, don't try to compare two completely different professions, and don't boldly accuse all of us of dishonesty! One of the lessons that my MA has taught me was to treat people with respect, so, so I will end my post here. Good luck with your school! Julie H. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Tired of the dillusion To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Julie, I apologize for the confusion. I was not referring to you, the doctor. I was referring to the new mafia, the insurance company. As for what I was making, I left that, then worked my way back up to where I am now. Sorry if you felt it was not a valid comparison. SY --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Tired of the dillusion Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:17:21 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hammer down, Julie! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... ;o)))) I do believe Yates was trying to make the point that the market will support what the market will support, and we see the prices in other professions up, up, up (all market forces considered; gatekeepers, cost shifting, medmal costs, yechnologu improvements, etc in your own driving the costs) while in the MA field most of us spend many dollars trying to undercut the Kuhrotty school across town, when we SHOULD be upselling our own.(guys- those schools aren't your competition! soccer is; peewee football is; little league is; ballet is; yada yada) There are many facets to running a successful martial arts school (once had one, ruined by a nasty divorce), front-end merchandising, tailoring programs to special interests, your own training and ongoing development( yes, almost like CE credits for the Docs), keeping rents down, buying supplies right rather than expensively, forcing the phone, electric, water costs into line, adding showers, lockers, retail stores, etc. Back in the "ole days", (late 70s, early 80s) I had the 5000 sf school with showers, locker rms, , 3 satellite programs, PLUS teaching SD in 2 local HS PE depts, a monthly tournament, setting up equipment and food concessions at 2 other tourneys monthly, and making $50-60k annual. (then divorce) which equals probably $110-130 now. Starting a bit slower this round- at the Y, a mid-day Tai Chi class, the Parks dept, early evenings karate 2x per week, with a DRs' group a midday Qi Gong and Tai Chi class for his patients(he has a gym at his building!), at the college, two classes later in evenings. Adding two classes at the Y in Fall, Karate & Tai Chi in evenings. It all takes time, energy and $$$$, just like any other business and profession, lawyer, doctor, candlestick maker, butcher, etc. (in the fall, begin looking for commercial space) However, business IS business, and the rules of business development are pretty standard at their base. (MS in Business Mgmt. here) So, what makes the difference between the $35 month karate school and the $160 per month school? Usually vision and determination. I applaud those souls who are driving the market towards progress in skill areas as well as those who are determined to professionalize this business arena. I encourage those who simply want 10-20-30 students who live like family and charge $25 month.(nothing wrong with that; some likes vanilla, some chocolate, some pistachio. why I don't know, but some do) Their students are no less important, receive not necessarily lesser-quality instruction and skills sets, and become no more nor less a human bean than those students paying $160 per month. Because, martial arts isn't about "how much can I get", but "how much can I give" in its final analysis, and how you arrive at the formula will vary from person to person. End result? the betterment of society through the improvement of imdividuals.(and, ain't nuthin' wrong with makin' an honest buck for your time, a commodity, along the way.....) Steven A. Berkowitz (MSBA) the Bugeikan Bremerton, Wa. Afula, Israel PS- always looking for young guys and gals ready to step into the world of teaching MA as partners in interesting places as partnerships ----- Original Message ----- From: "julie" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:52 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Tired of the dillusion > SY states: Once again, ask the doc next time you visit him what the visit > really cost including the insurance they scammed out of you. > > ****************************** > > Okay, I've stayed out of this post since I don't teach MA, however, I am a > doctor, and I am very offended by this statement. Gee, Mr. Yates, what > makes you think that we are scamming insurance? I charge fees based on > RVU's = relative value units. These RVU's are based on the governments & > insurance companies opinions of what individual services are worth. I don't > get to charge what *I* am worth, since the insurance companies decide what > they are going to pay, anyway. A "standard" exam in my office is $65 (which > usually takes about t 30-45"). Because of mandatory write-offs & such, I > usually collect about 70% of that fee. Am I only worth 70% - I don't think > so, but that is what I get. "Scamming insurance" is also called "insurance > fraud", and I, personally, don't think a few bucks is worth huge fines and > jail time! > > SO, charge what you want you want for your MA classes. Don't compare Dr's > fees, however, and don't say that we "scam" people, because many of us > don't! If you want to make a killing teaching people MA -- great! Have fun > and do a great job! I would rather help people live healthy lives than > worry about how much the next guy is making. Besides, as far as I know, you > don't have any regulating bodies out there breathing down your neck making > sure that you aren't the one "scamming" people! > > >>>$80,000 a year JOB(just over broke)<<<< > > Where do you live, that you can't live on $80K /year? That is an > OUTSTANDING income! I certainly don't come close to that, but I'm still new > in my office. However, I don't know of many people in my area who are > making $80K/year and saying that they are "just over broke". Come to think > of it, I don't know of many people around here making $80K/year. > > Okay, now *I'm* done ranting. Just please, Mr. Yates, don't try to compare > two completely different professions, and don't boldly accuse all of us of > dishonesty! One of the lessons that my MA has taught me was to treat people > with respect, so, so I will end my post here. Good luck with your school! > > Julie H. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/416 - Release Date: 8/10/2006 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Lila Ralston" To: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:18:41 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: prices Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I acknowledge the difficulty of trying to make a living running any kind of school. I also want to thank Mr. Hughes and all the other instructors who somehow manage to make martial arts classes available to students and families who are not in the Rolex-and-Lamborghini demographic. Yes, I do believe the quality of the instruction we get is worth far more than what we pay. But many of us, especially those raising children, simply don't have that much. Sometimes we can find other ways to support our school--perhaps using a paintbrush or hammer instead of a checkbook. --Lila Ralston, Live Oak Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:54:38 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] training curriculum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What is the training curriculum breakdown at your school? Do you practice the same thing every session or do you practice something different each training session? At the judo school, they do some general warmups, some breakfall practice. If there are alot of colored belts the head instructor will give demonstration and detailed personal instruction on a given technique and then they practice. Purple belt and up just randori (spar). Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:05:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Alida D'med Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: prices To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Our school charges $65 per student, with a discount for additional family members. The most expensive school in our area is $100 - we're midlevel here. But what Ms. Ralston says is very true - it's difficult for families, especially those with multiple children, to pay so much for training. Our parent volunteers (and the students, both children and adult) have done so much in our school, from helping rip out wires to tearing down walls to installing mirrors and more. No, we don't have the biggest, shiniest school in the area, but we are looking for new space because we're straining at the seams in the small dojang we have now. Alida Lila Ralston wrote: I acknowledge the difficulty of trying to make a living running any kind of school. I also want to thank Mr. Hughes and all the other instructors who somehow manage to make martial arts classes available to students and families who are not in the Rolex-and-Lamborghini demographic. Yes, I do believe the quality of the instruction we get is worth far more than what we pay. But many of us, especially those raising children, simply don't have that much. Sometimes we can find other ways to support our school--perhaps using a paintbrush or hammer instead of a checkbook. --Lila Ralston, Live Oak Martial Arts _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:08:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: prices To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well it all boils down to the balance of life. some will charge alot and some wont. Some will charge alot and give back to the community and some wont. There are so many factors in why we do things that also influence how we do things as well. For instance, there may arise a martial artist of the highest standards that will charge very little or in some cases nothing and the reason may be because they were once poor and couldn't partake in stuff other kids could and in their heart they have determined that they will not let other poor kids miss out on stuff. This is why we have so many different ideas of what to charge outside of business expenses. It's how we were raised, where we were raised etc. Jye Lila Ralston wrote: I acknowledge the difficulty of trying to make a living running any kind of school. I also want to thank Mr. Hughes and all the other instructors who somehow manage to make martial arts classes available to students and families who are not in the Rolex-and-Lamborghini demographic. Yes, I do believe the quality of the instruction we get is worth far more than what we pay. But many of us, especially those raising children, simply don't have that much. Sometimes we can find other ways to support our school--perhaps using a paintbrush or hammer instead of a checkbook. --Lila Ralston, Live Oak Martial Arts _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:18:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Tired of the dillusion To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The bottom line is you can charge anything you want without any logical reason. What determines if your business makes it or not ultimately are the clients. So if you charge astronomical prices and have clients that have no problem paying it, more power to you. My only problem if any, are the schools who charge crazy rates yet the curriculum and the skill level of the teachers suck...lol. Now for the people on the list who live according to a budget, when we see martial arts training at $140/month and times get hard, logically, one first thing to go will be that training. The reason? well typically there is no problem with investing in ones future, but I look at it like this. How will the training benefit me long term? can I get a job because of it? will it increase my salary? do I necessarily need it? etc etc. When the bulk of the answers are no, then out it goes...lol. So that is just one other thing people have to remember with these prices. Today $140/month can be working out, but tomorrow when times get hairy, will people still be paying $140/month? Jye --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:49:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: prices To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Exactly Jye. That is why despite what we charge, we have several sponsored students(I sponsored them), and we have good affiliations with many state programs for underpriveleged kids and families. If I was not in the financial position I am with my school, it would make that more difficult. Success is getting what you want, and wanting what you get when you get there. Some people lose sight of what the are trying to accomplish, such as make a difference in the community, by being deluded by money. It is sad, but I know those schools are out there too. Therefore I make it part of my responsibility to run the best school I can and do as much as I can for our surrounding commmunities. SY --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] More about the wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i had to respond to this...lol... People pay alot of money to obtain a college degree because that degree can potentially used that degree as a means of making back the money they spent out...lol. The goal there is to obtain a degree that you can then use to get a better job, or make the transition from job to career, in essence you can use that degree. Where can you use a martial arts degree/certification? to be fair I'll use a couple of examples, 1)health club offering martial arts instruction, 2)starting your own martial arts club. but where else? jye James K Allison wrote: To me a Martial Arts degree is no different than any other degree you can earn from a college or University. So why should we not require the same level of commitment. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:00:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: prices To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Someone mentioned that people go to TKD to learn discipline, to do stuff with the kids, etc etc. I realized something, people can get all of that and more by doing volunteer work in their community. Helping the poor, cleaning up the streets, rehabing a home, working in a soup kitchen, caring for the sick and old, mentoring at risk kids, etc. and guess what...that's all free of charge. So I think people should stick to not trying to make martial arts training as a necessity vs a luxury. I think the school owner who says I charge this much because I believe this is about what my facility/instruction is worth should be given respect as they are being quite honest. Don't get me wrong I love the martial arts but I wouldn't dare consider it a necessity. Jye --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] training curriculum To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think it's good to switch it up from time to time because let's face it, training is hardwork. I'm sure everyone of us at some point thought the martial arts was going to teach us to fly through the air breaking bricks and stuff. But we soon found out that it was 100% hard work 0% fantasy. So as with any physical exercise, you don't want the body to get used to doing the same stuff, so you switch it up to keep the body working. Even if you use variations of somethings. Also, you switch it up to keep the mind from getting bored. In my TKD school (ITF), we did drills, forms, sparring, competition preparation, self defense, breaking,one steps, etc. But the trick was that everyday we either did the same stuff differently, or it was a completely different set of exercises. In my kung fu school the cuuriculum as far as what we would be learning was so immense that all they had to do was teach us the forms and martial apps and that would keep us busy for the next few years...lol. But the break down was like this. each week would consist of a 'theme'. The theme would be the focus of exercises for that week. so we had conditioning week, power week, speed week, flexibility week, etc. So for instance, during the speed week we'd focus on performing forms, and drills that would enhance our speed. So with each week, came a new focal point with new exercises, and being that the school was kung fu, the exercises were always new. Jye freddie bishop wrote: What is the training curriculum breakdown at your school? Do you practice the same thing every session or do you practice something different each training session? At the judo school, they do some general warmups, some breakfall practice. If there are alot of colored belts the head instructor will give demonstration and detailed personal instruction on a given technique and then they practice. Purple belt and up just randori (spar). Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest