Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:59:47 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #337 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Blow to Wallet (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. different styles, different philosophies (freddie bishop) 3. Re: What are we worth? (sidtkd@aol.com) 4. RE: Jye and stances (George Peters) 5. Training Curriculum (Lois Knorr) 6. RE: Re: Blow to Wallet (Mr. Burdick) (Thomas Gordon) 7. Re: different styles, different philosophies (John Chambers) 8. Blow to Wallet (Sharon Tkach) 9. Re: Blow to Wallet (Ray) 10. Re: Re: Blow to Wallet (Mr. Burdick) (Zarah) 11. RE: Re: Blow to Wallet (Mr. Burdick) (Thomas Gordon) 12. RE: Prices... (J. Thomas Howard) 13. RE: Rooting and centering... (J. Thomas Howard) 14. World Military Taekwondo Chips (The_Dojang) 15. Re: RE: Rooting and centering... (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 06:45:44 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: , Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Blow to Wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Burdick said, ""....but over the next three years he alienated not onl his customers but also his instructors with his attitude...." Mr. Gordon replied: Apparently, problem was instructor/owner attitude, not cost, not contracts. My response: Yes, I would agree with that. I was impressed at what contracts could do for a school in terms of financing. And I still like this particular instructor (he's a good parent, a good husband, and a fantastic salesman), but he was IMO too interested in the profit and not enough in people. In these kinds of discussions, you will see me come down on the parents' side almost every time. Oh, and please call me Dakin, that's what I prefer. If you really must use title, the proper one is Dr. Burdick. I have used Mr. Gordon in this response since it is possible you were using the "Mr." out of courtesy. Mr. Gordon replied: I'm not real interested in hearing consulting advice from someone who can't live comfortably on their own school. My response: Well, since it seems that statement was directed at me, I guess my response would be that perhaps you shouldn't listen to it. For me, this Digest is about talking with others interested in the Korean arts, not about maintaining a pecking order for who can speak and who cannot. Let me just say that I don't have a school because I don't want a school. I have a good job already thanks, but even if you don't like it, I'm going to keep teaching and writing. Yours in the arts, always, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 04:47:31 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] different styles, different philosophies Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The fact that hapkido and tae kwon do have different philosophies about offense and defense, is the very reason why I believe the two arts should be practiced exclusively, one or the other. My old Tae Kwon Do instructor, Master Chung of Kokomo, IN, would teach the four arts seperately, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Hapkido, and kung fu. He said he taught Tae Kwon Do the most because it was the most popular and had more demand. fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:50:14 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: What are we worth? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've seen recent postings by a physician and by other martial artist concerning what their relative worth is relative to their services. Now...if their were a reference or code book, then our worth would be easy to determine. As a teacher in the NYC Public Schools I've come to reckon this. Whether I were a doctor, lawyer, Indian Chief, martial artist...it's all the same principle.We are worth whatever the traffic will bear. No matter how great you think you are, charge too much and see how long you last. Sid --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:30:35 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Jye and stances Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, OK, I see where you are coming from, I think. I come from a background where the Master would prefer for the student to wrack his/her brain to understand and to explain as a last resort. This worked great for me in most instances, but explanations ARE nice. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:02:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Training Curriculum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At our school we have classes (not necessarily for all levels) six days per week. Our curriculum is based on a five-type cycle: A – Basics/Poomse B – Technique Development C – Self-defense D – Sparring E – Instructor’s Choice This results in a consistent program on each day. If last Monday classes were all ‘A’, then next Monday classes will all be ‘B’. Sparring equipment is required for types ‘D’ and ‘E’ only. For example, if a student attends classes on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, they will rotate through the cycle over a five week period, but also have three different types of classes during each week. The schedule is not rigid, so if there is a testing coming up, then those students invited to test are permitted to focus on their testing requirements. If there is a tournament coming up, then those students planning to attend are often allowed to focus on tournament training, etc. It seems to work well, both for instructors and students, as there is flexible structure to the training. Lois --------------------------------- Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Blow to Wallet (Mr. Burdick) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Burdick, Apparently we both agree the issue is with the lack of instruction - not the cost and not the contracts. The man wanted to chase the all mighty dollar and I'm glad he no longer represents martial art instructors. "....If you really must use title, the proper one is Dr. Burdick. I have used Mr. Gordon in this response since it is possible you were using the 'Mr.' out of courtesy." In regards to titles, I catch a little flak about that on this list with some wanting first name basis. Personally, I find it pretty rude when someone very junior (age and/or rank) calls someone by their first name on a public list. Although I'm writing this "to you," it's going out for 2000+ other people. Since I'm pretty new compared to some of the folks and this list, I play it safe on public lists and call everyone by their last name if I know it. I'm not changing my etiquettes to fit in unless my etiquettes fall short, then by all means I'll try and keep up. In regards to calling someone by their professional title, as you said, this list is about Korean martial arts and not for judges, senators, generals, or doctors which is why I try and refrain from such titles on this list. But thanks for the clarification. Should I find myself on a list or dealing with your profession, I'll be sure to keep your professional status in mind. About your last paragraph, I apologize for the misunderstanding with the expressionless email. It didn't cross my mind that you may have taken my comment personally. I reviewed my email and can see where it could be misunderstood. "I'm not real interested in hearing consulting advice from someone who can't live comfortably on their own school. I don't make it a practice going to a dentist who has bad teeth either...." The comment was directed towards some "consultants" out there charging big money who couldn't keep their own schools open. Nothing more - nothing less. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "John Chambers" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] different styles, different philosophies Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:11:17 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Fred: The Master Chung From Indiana,..was this Young Nam Chung, whos partner was Sung Jae Park? If so, I sponsored both of them to the USA through visas back in the 1960s. I remained and trained with both for a number of years before moving from Indiana back to Florida. John E. Chambers professorjohn@tampabay.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "freddie bishop" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 7:47 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] different styles, different philosophies > The fact that hapkido and tae kwon do have different > philosophies about offense and defense, is the very > reason why I believe the two arts should be practiced > exclusively, one or the other. My old Tae Kwon Do > instructor, Master Chung of Kokomo, IN, would teach > the four arts seperately, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Hapkido, > and kung fu. He said he taught Tae Kwon Do the most > because it was the most popular and had more demand. > > fred > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:45:28 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Blow to Wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Terry wrote: >Ok, enough on that... As a school owner, I find it interesting and helpful to hear the various perspectives on tuition rates. Please don't stop the discussion. Those uninterested can skip these posts. ~Sharon --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to Wallet To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Please don't stop the discussion. Those uninterested can skip > these posts. It hasn't stopped. But it is best that we get some real data points like Alida, Mike and James posted instead of vague references to questionable data. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Zarah To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Blow to Wallet (Mr. Burdick) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas Gordon wrote: >I'm not changing my etiquettes to fit in >unless my etiquettes fall short, then by all means I'll try and keep up. Then by all means, you should be addressing Dr. Burdick as Dakin, as that is what he has requested you do. Zarah, mother of one of those students at the apparently loathsome Parks & Rec programs, without which my son wouldn't be able to participate in the art he loves. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Blow to Wallet (Mr. Burdick) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:42:46 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ms. Zarah, Appears this is your first post, welcome to the Dojang Digest. There is nothing loathsome about Parks & Rec programs. Heck, I lift weights at the local YMCA and it's real convenient for me. My local Taekwondo instructor teaches out of the community center and he is an excellent instructor. I wish they would charge more so he could dedicate more time to teaching martial arts instead of only being able to offer classes twice a week. The point I've been trying to make is that people can make a living teaching martial arts. Some prefer part time instruction and that's great - makes the world go round. My first post was showing someone that I first met in 1991 and, in my opinion, has lost focus of teaching martial arts to chasing the all mighty dollar. I could be wrong about him but I know he offers courses on "How to get big money" to other school owners. Selling 3 year contracts to a five year old is pretty silly in my opinion - both to the shark selling and the goldfish buying. >From that I managed to find myself back on the soap box about those instructors who are under the misconception that you can't or shouldn't make a living teaching martial arts. To my reply - that's crap. There will always be martial arts available to everyone because of YMCA's, rec centers, and churches. We have a YMCA across literally the street from us and I refer people to them all the time. I hope your son's training goes well under Mr. Burdick's direction. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "J. Thomas Howard" To: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:44:46 -0500 Organization: Nebraska Hapkido Association Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Prices... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lila Ralston wrote: > I acknowledge the difficulty of trying to make a living > running any kind of school. I also want to thank Mr. Hughes > and all the other instructors who somehow manage to make > martial arts classes available to students and families who > are not in the Rolex-and-Lamborghini demographic. Well put. :) > Yes, I do believe the quality of the instruction we get is > worth far more than what we pay. But many of us, especially > those raising children, simply don't have that much. > Sometimes we can find other ways to support our > school--perhaps using a paintbrush or hammer instead of a > checkbook. --Lila Ralston, Live Oak Martial Arts In addition, Alida D'med added: > But what Ms. Ralston says is very true - it's difficult for > families, especially those with multiple children, to pay so > much for training. Quite so. For example, where I teach, we have the weirdest demographics: most families are either low income or high income---the percentage of families who are middle-class is almost nonexistant. So if I charge "what the traffic will bear" indeed, I could probably charge $80-$100 per month (middling-to-high for this area). And if I did, half of the population would not be able to train--they simply don't have the money. However, I'm not a full-time instructor, so between my wife and I, we make enough money for me to put my price within a reasonable range for all of the population nearby. Over half of my students are paying for their own classes and promotions out of their own pocket. (Which means something pretty serious, because these kids go to school full-time, and work the rest of the time to make money for their families. They certainly don't pay for my classes out of their weekly allowance, which is non-existant.) True, I could make more by charging more, and "valuing my teaching more" --- yet because I value my teaching, I make it so that I can reach the students who, in many cases, really need this sort of self-discipline, self-confidence, and self-defense training. This is not meant as a commentary on anyone else's school, tuition, or choices. If I lived in a place where the economic situation was more standardized, I'd probably charge more, too. (And I wouldn't feel bad about it.) My teaching time really IS worth more than I'm currently charging. On the other hand, "worth" is also defined as how much you pay out of how much you've got---so apparently, to many of my students, my teaching is REALLY worth something. I can handle that. :) Teachers who have no other sources of income generally don't get to make that kind of choice---they have to feed their families, too. Thomas H. Nebraska Hapkido Association hapkido.4t.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "J. Thomas Howard" To: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:35:38 -0500 Organization: Nebraska Hapkido Association Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Rooting and centering... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: > I wanted to know what people thought about TKD stances and > the concept of Root. I think it's no surprise that TKD has > very little root and the stances aren't all that centered, > but I want to know what you all think about this? Do you feel > TKD is as powerful as it could be without being centered and > root power? I'm rather curious as to why you think TKD stances aren't centered? Where have you seen TKD stances that were taught in a non-centered fashion? And with regard to rooting, most TKD horse stances and back stances are low and rooted. Now, most TKD sparring stances aren't rooted (though they tend to be centered) because most TKD sparring is based on mobility, thus being rooted isn't helpful. I'll also note that rooting adds power to certain classes of techniques---but not all classes of techniques. You then added in a later post: > I found that this article has some pretty decent info > about posture and stances. Okay, then doesn't that answer your question about centering and rooting? As Ray has said, stance use depends on principles and tactics. TKD stances mirror the principles behind their use. When you post, could you please give a citation for the articles you copy and paste? I'd like to know who writes the articles, or where you got them. Reading just the article without any accompanying information is annoying for those of us who like to find out more than what is in the article. Oh--considering the length of the articles you are posting, unless you wrote it, you might want to be careful about copying and pasting (instead of providing a link) since some people have a thing about copyrights. Thomas H. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:51:07 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] World Military Taekwondo Chips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the 17th World Military Taekwondo Championships 14 Aug 2006 This is in regard to the outlines and competition dates of the 17th World Military Taekwondo Championships to be held on Sept. 18-26, 2006, in Seoul, Korea. Would you please visit the official Web site of the organizer (http://www.sangmu.go.kr) to get all the information on the championships. --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Rooting and centering... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well to answer your questions. TKD has no lower basin work and so this tkd root can not be strong. If you build your house on a weak foundation, sure it has a foundation but the house isn't as solid and strong and sturdy as it should be. Now as far as being centered. I've seen forms, drills, etc where the stances aren't centered, quite high, lack root, etc etc. however, I've seen some shotokan schools who work on the things I've mentioned and therefore have a solid foundation. The horse stance and back stance sure are rooted but the root is weak. Also, one can be quite moble still utilizing a moving root. Ok let me just ask you personally a question. Do you or does your school teach any lower basin work? Jye "J. Thomas Howard" wrote: I'm rather curious as to why you think TKD stances aren't centered? Where have you seen TKD stances that were taught in a non-centered fashion? And with regard to rooting, most TKD horse stances and back stances are low and rooted. Now, most TKD sparring stances aren't rooted (though they tend to be centered) because most TKD sparring is based on mobility, thus being rooted isn't helpful. I'll also note that rooting adds power to certain classes of techniques---but not all classes of techniques. You then added in a later post: > I found that this article has some pretty decent info > about posture and stances. Okay, then doesn't that answer your question about centering and rooting? As Ray has said, stance use depends on principles and tactics. TKD stances mirror the principles behind their use. When you post, could you please give a citation for the articles you copy and paste? I'd like to know who writes the articles, or where you got them. Reading just the article without any accompanying information is annoying for those of us who like to find out more than what is in the article. Oh--considering the length of the articles you are posting, unless you wrote it, you might want to be careful about copying and pasting (instead of providing a link) since some people have a thing about copyrights. Thomas H. --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest