Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:23:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #338 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Martial Arts Consulting (Charles Richards) 2. School size and rank (Charles Richards) 3. Re: Blow to wallet (Craig Zeigler) 4. Re: Blow to Wallet (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. RE: Root and Center... (J. Thomas Howard) 6. Returned from Cali today (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. [RE][The_Dojang] RE: Rooting and centering... (sidona) 8. Blow to Wallet (Curt McCauley) 9. Hapkido Seminar, Laughlin, NV (Sharon Tkach) 10. Re: RE: Root and Center... (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:38:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts Consulting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Not to plug one tool over another, but. I found the NAPMA materials helpful when partnered in a school that started at 65 out of a fitness club, grew to 120 a year after signing a storefront lease. I left when the school was about 150, but my former partner was last known to have 300 active students and was paying a home mortgage and car lease (i.e. teaching full time and making a profit). When I started my teach after work dojang I tried the NAPMA materials again, but honestly didn't have time to digest, evaluate and apply the material. I find asking a question on this list to be the most valuable resource out there. I too use the MATA materials because I like the online repository system versus the monthly delivery system. I can go into the MATA website as needed and choose something to evaluate and then possible implement at my own pace. The $24.95 a month is discounted through my tuition billing company (pps billing) on a sliding scale based on the number of clients you have. Yours in Jung Do, mc --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:02:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] School size and rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Over the last 15 years I have always had a school of my own. I have taught in every possible location from my own garage to a 6 day per week full time school. I think it's more important to define what you want out of life and if martial arts is included in that list figure out a way to balance it with the rest of your obligations so that you can be a lifelong martial artist. My latest version is two week nights after work and saturday mornings at a Gold's Gym. I am employed by day as a professional civil engineer and I love my challenging career. I am married to a lovely wife (this June will be 10 years). I have two wonderfull children 6 and 4. This summer my son (age 6) went to every class and tournament with me which ment I say him every night and put him to bed every night. My daughter goes to the childrens area at Gold's Gym during Saturday classes and then the three of us have lunch out and the rest of the afternoon together while my wife works Saturday. Starting in January (5th birthday) my daughter will join me in Saturday classes and competitions. I have less than 20 students and no overhead. I teach a block style class on Tuesday and Thursday and Saturday is split into block/family followed by Red&Blackbelt class. I have figured out that teaching traditional korean martial arts and coaching and refereeing WTF style sparring is what I enjoy. The 20 or so folks that train with me are committed to one or both of those goals and tend to stay with me for longer than three years and I do not sell multi-year contracts. It does not appear that as I progress in rank I will grow to a 300 member full time school. It does appear that I will be able to: Train for my 6th Dan exam (possibly sometime before I leave the planet :-)) Continue to grow my skills as an instructor Coach my son and daughter in competitions Teach my children traditional Korean martial arts Stay happily married without creating a "karate widow" Enjoy growing my career as a professional engineer If I were still a single "low rank" with no family I might have different goals. I hope all on this list will stay on the path of lifelong martial artisit regardless of the environment. Yours in Jung Do, mc --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:11:18 -0400 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Blow to wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas Gordon wrote: > A few points: > > You CAN get a good rate for teaching. Is $160 too much? I don't know, is > it? I pay more than that for lawn service every month. $160 won't even > get you a hour with most lawyers. And doctors....HA! Our daughter went > to the emergency room. 75 minutes later we walked out.....and a $1000 > less. ($800 a hour doing the math) > > Personally, I think signing a five year old up on 36 month contract is > unethical. > > I also think a parent signing up their 5 year old for 36 months ain't the > brightest crayon in the box. > > As I was recently told it really comes down to 1-2-3. > 1 - spoiled child > 2 – money grubbing business > 3 - stupid parent > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > I've been following this thread somewhat and am not sure if someone has already covered this, but I'd ask myself one other question. Is this school one of those 'buy a black belt' factories? Although thats not always obvious, its an important thing to look for. When the child is 5 years old, they're not going to stick with much for 3 years unless the parents force them to, and even then, the child will act out, and cause more trouble than they're worth. The consensus of 'stupid parent' is very accurate, and I hope the school holds their ground. Granted, I think the person who signs up a 5 year old for a 3 year hitch needs to relearn some of the principles of martial arts.. honor being the first one that comes to mind. That being said, the school really doesn't deserve the womans money, but the woman deserves to lose that money as a life lesson. Just my $0.02 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:19:10 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Blow to Wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Gordon wrote: Apparently we both agree the issue is with the lack of instruction - not the cost and not the contracts. The man wanted to chase the all mighty dollar and I'm glad he no longer represents martial art instructors. My response: Well, like I said, the man is a friend. We tested together for first dan and I like him a lot personally. But certainly at this point I have run into enough of his old students and old assistant instructors who were offended by his approach. I'm glad he's doing well at sales -- he was always the consummate salesman. I'm not opposed to contracts in theory, but I'm still very leery of those who use them as a means of pulling 3 years of money out of people whom the instructor knows will only be there 6 months or less. I also realize that my high ambitions are the reason I don't have a dojang -- I often think my high ideals are best suited for the independently wealthy, and I'm certainly not that! :) Mr. Gordon wrote: Since I'm pretty new compared to some of the folks and this list, I play it safe on public lists and call everyone by their last name if I know it. .... Should I find myself on a list or dealing with your profession, I'll be sure to keep your professional status in mind. My response: Thanks for clarifying that -- sorry if I misread your post. I have always used first names, and as a result have often offended others, so your tactic of using last names is a safe one. As to my degree, I'm not sure if you realize this, but I'm probably one of the few out there who actually has a Ph.D. in martial arts (a Ph.D. from an accredited institution that is). My degree is from Indiana University at Bloomington, where I got a Ph.D. in American History and American Studies writing on the topic of bareknuckle boxing and jujutsu in America from 1845 to 1945. I also taught eight classes per semester in Kinesiology, including taekwondo, hapkido, judo, self-defense, and two lecture courses on the arts, "E145: Introduction to the Martial Arts" and "E245: Cultures and Traditions of the Martial Arts." So my degree is on the martial arts, but again, please call me Dakin. PS: You replied to Zarah with: >I hope your son's training goes well under Mr. Burdick's direction. Although I have taught for Parks & Recreation and the YMCA in the past, I haven't taught kids for about 3 years now (taught them for 17 years before that). I don't know Zarah, but I suppose her child might be studying with my student Chris Hunt. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J. Thomas Howard" To: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:22:18 -0500 Organization: Nebraska Hapkido Association Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: > Well to answer your questions. TKD has no lower basin work and so this > tkd root can not be strong. If you build your house on a weak > foundation, sure it has a foundation but the house isn't as solid and > strong and sturdy as it should be. So your conclusion is that unless rooting is done in one specific way, (specific to Chinese martial arts), then it isn't as good? How odd. In general, "lower basin" is a movement "type" specific to bagua--as such, we wouldn't expect to see it in a TKD style. However, this has nothing to do with whether or not a good root can be created. Of course, it depends on your definition of "root." For example, in many Chinese styles, "root" means the practitioner has a basis of chi moving downwards, creating root, leading to chi moving upwards, etc, etc....and yet, in many other styles, "root" means the ability to be grounded, "heavy," and solid in structure, without the addition of "chi" commentary. Often energy use (chi, ki, prana, whatever) is involved via discussion, but the basis is physical. Does TKD have low structural work? Sure. Is it "lower basin" work specific (or similar) to bagua? Of course not. Can TKD people root just fine? Sure. Are there many schools that don't---sure. Of course, many Chinese styles don't "root" well, either. That is instructor-specific, not style-specific. > Now as far as being centered. I've seen forms, drills, etc where the > stances aren't centered, quite high, lack root, etc etc. however, I've > seen some shotokan schools who work on the things I've mentioned and > therefore have a solid foundation. Indeed. I've seen schools of TKD, karate, and chinese styles where both good centering and bad centering are taught. This has nothing to do with whether or not the _style_ contains such things. Among other things, I would be surprised to see a shotokan school do "lower basin" work. > The horse stance and back stance sure are rooted but the root is weak. How? (Other than a repeat of the "no lower basin work" comment.) > Also, one can be quite moble still utilizing a moving root. Depending on your definition of root. Chi-based root, yes, you can. "Heavy/low" root, no. Structurally-based root, indeed you can. But I'm pretty sure that isn't the kind of root you mean. > Ok let me just ask you personally a question. Do you or does your > school teach any lower basin work? Nope. Again, I teach a Korean style. Since I don't teach bagua, I wouldn't be expected to teach lower basin work. In a similar fashion, that shotokan school you talked about---did they do "lower basin" work? Or instead, did they simply have good movement basics, low powerful stance practice, and good posture? However, I do teach rooting, centering, movement from center, circling, low-line movement, mid-line movement, and high-line movement. I could go on, but it seemed to me that the start of this thread was worded specifically to bring attention to the movement style of your basic art, which isn't Korean. The fact that other people do it differently was taken by you to mean "worse," when all it really means is "different." As people have said: different techniques, different tactics, different usage. I had replied earlier regarding the stance article you posted: > Okay, then doesn't that answer your question about centering and > rooting? As Ray has said, stance use depends on principles and > tactics. TKD stances mirror the principles behind their use. Which you didn't respond to. > When you post, could you please give a citation for the articles you > copy and paste? You also didn't provide a citation for the article you posted. Could you, please? Thomas H. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.10/418 - Release Date: 8/14/2006 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:58:06 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Returned from Cali today Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all Just trying to catch up on all I missed while in Cali. It was a great trip Trained at the Moo Duk Kwan school in Hollywood on Monday Night, Trained at the Gracie Academy Tuesday, Rolling with Henner and Heilen Gracie was great. the material we covered was mostly things I already knew, however the details helped a lot I feel my ground techniques improved over the week end Wendsday was all beach hoping and and travel South along the Hwy 5 to San Diego. Thursday trained in KJN HC Hwang's clinics and the Ko Dan Ja clinic taught by Master Kenyon of Pacific Beach that was a great clinic on sparring and receiving energy from an attack by foloowing with the attack. I was training with a young 20 something Marine that tested for 4th dan 2 years ago. It was great becasue he was fast, and I had to be on my toes. Friday was the Dan competition at the 28th Annual SBD MDK nationals. I took 11 students, all of which did very well My school also was the 5 state reps for the Dan Hyung Team, and we won Grand Champion. Saturday was all Gup Competion, and the gathering of MDK celebration that would follow. It was great to see old friends representing all 50 states plus the international guest from Korea and Austrailia. It was also good to see dan number 11 was in attendance. JC Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "sidona" Organization: Lycos. Inc. To: Subject: [RE][The_Dojang] RE: Rooting and centering... Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I wanted to know what people thought about TKD stances and the concept of Root." I beleive that it all depends on the way that such stances are taught. One school will teach a stance in an entirely different manner than another school, no matter what the martial art style being taught. To broadly state "all TKD schools teach as such" does not hold much merit no matter what the perspective of a style stances may be. Personally, I have seen TKD schools that teach very strong grounded(rooted) stances and have the ability to flow between one stance and another. On the other hand, I have seen TKD schools that teach very poor stances. In many circumstances it is the quality of the instructor, not the art. ~Sidona ---------[ Received Mail Content ]---------- Subject : [The_Dojang] RE: Rooting and centering... Date : Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:35:38 -0500 From : "J. Thomas Howard" To : Jye wrote: > I wanted to know what people thought about TKD stances and > the concept of Root. I think it's no surprise that TKD has > very little root and the stances aren't all that centered, > but I want to know what you all think about this? Do you feel > TKD is as powerful as it could be without being centered and > root power? I'm rather curious as to why you think TKD stances aren't centered? Where have you seen TKD stances that were taught in a non-centered fashion? And with regard to rooting, most TKD horse stances and back stances are low and rooted. Now, most TKD sparring stances aren't rooted (though they tend to be centered) because most TKD sparring is based on mobility, thus being rooted isn't helpful. I'll also note that rooting adds power to certain classes of techniques---but not all classes of techniques. You then added in a later post: > I found that this article has some pretty decent info > about posture and stances. Okay, then doesn't that answer your question about centering and rooting? As Ray has said, stance use depends on principles and tactics. TKD stances mirror the principles behind their use. When you post, could you please give a citation for the articles you copy and paste? I'd like to know who writes the articles, or where you got them. Reading just the article without any accompanying information is annoying for those of us who like to find out more than what is in the article. Oh--considering the length of the articles you are posting, unless you wrote it, you might want to be careful about copying and pasting (instead of providing a link) since some people have a thing about copyrights. Thomas H. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 8/11/2006 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:15:16 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Blow to Wallet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Regard to " Blow to wallet", I have a close friend and instructor who has a studio in a large metropolitan area. After teaching many years on a part time basis, finally opted to follow is art full time. After finding his location, he visited other studios in the area checking on their prices. After finding the mean average he started his tuition at $20 higher, because he knew he had a better program. This was two years ago and he is approaching 200 students. Also on a nearly related subject. A regional group used to host a twice annually all day seminar with some very senior instructors, for free, and could hardly get anyone to attend. Some one came up with the idea of charging $100, and they since have had to find a larger space to hold the event. I guess if we don't place the value on our teaching no one else will either. Curt McCauley Chief Instructor Channel Town Soo Bahk Do --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:10:14 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Seminar, Laughlin, NV Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are invited to attend Jang Mu Hapkido Association's Annual Seminar. Ages 13 and older, all ranks and styles welcome. Saturday, September 16, 2006 Colorado Belle Hotel and Casino Laughlin, NV Seminar 9am - 4pm, Private dinner after Seminar/Dinner: $60 Discounted room rates available through Aug 27. For more info, email stkach@hotmail.com. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:32:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My answers are below: "J. Thomas Howard" wrote: >So your conclusion is that unless rooting is done in one specific way, (specific to Chinese martial arts), then it isn't as good? How odd. Actually, my conclusion is that some type of exercise for developing root needs to be done in order to have root , strong root at that, I was pointing out one exercise in specific. Perhaps I should have stated it in a another way such as TKD doesn't utilize any auxiliary exercises such as lower basin work. >In general, "lower basin" is a movement "type" specific to bagua--as such, we wouldn't expect to see it in a TKD style.However, this has nothing to do with whether or not a good root can be created. Of course, it depends on your definition of "root." For example, in many Chinese styles, "root" means the practitioner has a basis of chi moving downwards, creating root, leading to chi moving upwards, etc, etc....and yet, in many other styles, "root" means the ability to be grounded, "heavy," and solid in structure, without the addition of "chi" commentary. Often energy use (chi, ki, prana, whatever) is involved via discussion, but the basis is physical. Yes bagua is ONE art that uses lower basin exercises. But it is definitely not specific to only bagua. For example, a lower basin exercise, stand in a deep horse stance, and walk staying in a horse stance. now if you walk in a circle, then yes there you go bagua...lol. It's no secret that in developing root you need proper skeletal alignment but also a strong foundation as developed in lower basin exercise. the definition of root is what it is, being bottom heavy or grounded as you put it. The definition doesn't change from art to art, the method of becoming rooted is what varies. >Does TKD have low structural work? Sure. Is it "lower basin" work specific (or similar) to bagua? Of course not.Can TKD people root just fine? Sure. Are there many schools that don't---sure. Of course, many Chinese styles don't root" well, either. That is instructor-specific, not style-specific. What are some examples of tkd low structural work you've experienced or seen? also do you have examples of the chinese arts which don't root well? I believe indeed the it's a teacher specific issue but also I feel it can be style specific . What I mean is if the style doesn't teach the concept of being centered or rooted especially in a real time combat scenario then that can be a problem. >Indeed. I've seen schools of TKD, karate, and chinese styles where both good centering and bad centering are taught. This has nothing to do with whether or not the style contains such things.Among other things, I would be surprised to see a shotokan school do "lower basin" work. The only time I've personally seen "bad centering taught" is when teaching how not to practice centering ...lol. Think about what you said. If a style doesn't contain the concept of being centered then how could they teach the concept? Ok think of this. If I had a computer school but did use or know about windows XP how could I teach it? Just disagree with your thought there. Now don't all caught up on the actual lower basin exercise term. I had a nice clip of a shotokan class where the students practiced nice deep stances utilized in their forms and some used it in their sparring not all the time though. I'll search for it. >How? (Other than a repeat of the "no lower basin work" comment.) Simple. if you build a house with twigs versues the proper types of boards which is stronger? If you're not doing exercises that will strengthen those leg muscles in a way that can be utilized by the practitioner, then their foundation is weak. Not hard to grasp that concept. so for instance, you may have someone who works out with weights and can do a good amount of weights on leg exercises yet buckle quickly when doing an exercise like holding the horse stance for 3 mins or more, then you can see what I'm talking about. It's been my experience that when combining some type of auxiliary exercise in combo with what some call bone that the lower segment of the body used to attack or defend is a monster! Another clear example is take someone who can benchpress a freaking ton...lol. have them do pushups and if they're not used to doing them, it will be hell. My reasoning is because their body has grown acustiom (probably a bad way to put this) to doing benchpresses, but that doesn't translate to being able to knock out pushups. So when you take something like A root building exercise like posture holding and then moving using deep stances, then those exercises can be easily used in a combat situation. hope that makes sense. >Depending on your definition of root. Chi-based root, yes, you can. "Heavy/low" root, no. Structurally-based root, indeed you can. But I'm pretty sure that isn't the kind of root you mean. Say what? lol. "chi based root, heavy/low root, and structurally-based root" are one in the same. For the internal styles that utilize root like baguazhang, xing-yi and Tai Chi Chuan, they do focus on their chi and maintaining their center of course, but you must be structurally aligned properly to develop and utilize your root, whether internal or external style. also through the development of root you can use a low stance (as low as your flexibility allows so once again root is root. what you labeled as 3 separate types of root are all the same thing, there is no separation. That's why you can go from an external style CMA to an internal CMA because many of the foundational teachings such as proper body alignment are similar (or the same)...lol. Root is root. with the exception of moving root. >Nope. Again, I teach a Korean style. Since I don't teach bagua, I wouldn't be expected to teach lower basin work. In a similar fashion, that shotokan school you talked about---did they do "lower basin" work? Or instead, did they simply have good movement basics, low powerful stance practice, and good posture? I should say when I say lower basin work, I'm referring to lower body auxiliary exercises....not necessarily an actual training method some schools call lower basin. So now that we have that out of the way...lol. How about this. what types of exercises do you teach to develop root, and to strengthen the legs for a strong foundation? that shotokan school did indeed do a lower basin work. *note I used "a" to signfy not the specific lower basin work, but exercises used for the same principles as THE lower basin exercise. ...deep stances with transitional stepping, and holding of the stance for periods of time. etc. >However, I do teach rooting, centering, movement from center, circling, low-line movement, mid-line movement, and high-line movement. I could go on, but it seemed to me that the start of this thread was worded specifically to bring attention to the movement style of your basic art, which isn't Korean. please explain low-line, mid-line, and high-line movements. also explain how you teach rooting. Well at the start of this thread I was interested in hearing what TKD people thought about their training in centering and rooting. It is no mystery that some TKD has been watered down like a now-or-later dropped in water, so the real deal is how many people teach these concepts, or has the mass majority of schools not really thought about it? >The fact that other people do it differently was taken by you to mean "worse," when all it really means is "different." Actually the fact that you assumed that I think because they do it differently that I think it's wrong. What I think that people who don't do something and try to state that they have the benefits from doing these things are wrong. Now to make this clear. my point is to develop root you need proper alignment (body mechanics) as well as auxiliary exercises that strengthen the lower portion of the body. The purpose of those exercises is to strengthen the lower portion of the body which will increase root power. If you have weak legs you can not have powerful root. Just like if you have weak bones in your hand you can't have a very powerful punch. But when you condition the hand and exercise the hand and train the hand, the hand muslces, tendons, bones etc become stronger thus allowing you to deliver more powerful punch...the hand can withstand more impact. I may have been a bit confusing intermixing lower basin work with lower basin exercise, one refers to work that strengthens the lower portion and one refers to a specifc exercise/set of exact exercises for the lower portion. >I had replied earlier regarding the stance article you posted: Okay, then doesn't that answer your question about centering and rooting? As Ray has said, stance use depends on principles and tactics. TKD stances mirror the principles behind their use. Which you didn't respond to. Why would I respond to a question like that when it's obvious that it didn't answer my question. I didn't ask what the article or author of the article thought about TKD stances, centering, etc. I asked what did people on the list think. Also, I don't respond to every comment someone makes. I respond to a focal point and allow that to cover all the other stuff. But as far as what Ray said, I agree, and will add on that stances are also used as training methods, ie., lower basin work...using the horse stance with transitional stepping. > When you post, could you please give a citation for the articles you copy and paste? You also didn't provide a citation for the article you posted. Could you, please? Yes indeed. what I'm starting to do is post the article and provide the web address, depending on what machine I'm on. If I'm at school I rush a little as we only have a 20min lunch break...lol. anyhow...that article came from TKDtutor.com. From my perspective, they don't have pure TKD material there because I found writtings on chi and things of that nature. however, I found some of the things they write to be true. I didn't agree with everything the article said, but I felt they were on the right track with other things. Thomas H. --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest