Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 02:59:46 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #342 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. KKW certification (Charles Richards) 2. fight science don't miss it! (Jye nigma) 3. RE: RE: Root and Center... (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 4. Re: martial arts degree (Thomas Gordon) 5. RE: KKW certification (Rick Clark) 6. Ricks Questions (Johnnie Rouse) 7. Re: KKW certification (Ray) 8. video clip: rooooot (Jye nigma) 9. video: clip (Jye nigma) 10. Fight Science (ralphs@shentel.net) 11. RE: Ricks Questions (Rick Clark) 12. RE: KKW certification (Rick Clark) 13. Re: KKW certification (Ray) 14. RE: KKW certification (Rick Clark) 15. Re: video: clip (steven riggs) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 06:08:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "At the risk of starting a flame war why is it important for you to have KKW recognition. For example if someone moves there may not be a KKW school in the area but an ITF school, or perhaps ATA, or they may not have a TKD school near. Going into a school that is not KKW the KKW certificate does not mean any more to a non KKW school than any other certificate. Rick Clark" mc reply I agree You need a KKW certification for WTF international events. Any other reason is emotion based. I'll guess 90% of school owners on this list have an "evaluation period" for transfer Dans regardless of the source of their first piece of paper. stay well, mc --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: MartialArtsTalk@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] fight science don't miss it! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/fightscience/videoPreview.html --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center... Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:39:18 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The whole root thing is very interesting. Because depending on what point of view that you take you will naturally see thing from that angle. With the odd exception boxers throw power punches with their feet "planted" and they can throw lighter punches like jabs while on their toes. You pick the tools to solve your problems Peter -----Original Message----- From: Burdick, Dakin Robert [mailto:burdickd@indiana.edu] Sent: 15 August 2006 11:56 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net; the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center... The use of rooting in taekwondo depends on your instructor and style, as does everything. The WTF folks don't do a lot of rooting, but I wouldn't say they didn't have leg strength. Plyometrics seems to take care of them just fine. Gen. Choi's sine wave movement might be closer to rooting, again depending on your instructor. The more hand skills you employ, the more apt you are to use rooting. I'd agree with Jye that however you explain the rooting (qi, biomechanics, etc), the rooting remains the same. I've done some baguazhang, and now that I know what to look for, I believe that some styles of hapkido have been influenced by it. Baguazhang, Xingiquan, Shaolin gongfu, and Praying Mantis gongfu all entered the ROK during the Korean War. Kuksulwon showed the Praying Mantis influence, and Kongshin hapkido showed the Baguazhang and Praying Mantis. I have to disagree with Jye that some form of formal exercise has to be done to develop root, which I think is his point. I'm a big fan of partner drills and one can play with root while doing those (push hands for example, or judo randori), instead of working through a form or solo exercise. Doing it in a partner drill also adds authentic assessment to the practice, and refines root to its most useful form (as long as the partner drills are varied and are as close as possible to the real thing). Jye writes: "A root building exercise like posture holding and then moving using deep stances, then those exercises can be easily used in a combat situation." Traditional taekwondo does deep stance work, and that develops strength and flexibility, but I'm still in favor of more dynamic exercises. That solo work is a great adjunct to partner drills, but is not directly applicable to fighting. The more time you spend in horse stance, the less you spend practicing fighting. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:28:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] martial arts degree From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Donahoo, The only accredited university offering a degree in martial arts that I know of is Bridgeport with a BA in martial arts. http://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/3868.asp Seems there was another college but I can't recall. I’ve never seen nor heard of an accredited college offering a higher degree (MA or Phd) in martial arts. Philosophy, history, religion, sure – but not a degree specific for martial artists. At least not that I know of. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:29:45 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KKW certification To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Charles, >I read > "At the risk of starting a flame war why is it important for >you to have KKW recognition. For example if someone moves >there may not be a KKW school in the area but an ITF school, >or perhaps ATA, or they may not have a TKD school near. Going >into a school that is not KKW the KKW certificate does not >mean any more to a non KKW school than any other certificate. > >Rick Clark" > > mc reply > I agree > You need a KKW certification for WTF international events. > Any other reason is emotion based. I agree with you on this - but I would like to make a point on this topic. Does anyone really believe that its in the best interests of our students to have rank and certificates controlled by the KKW? This group has proven its self over the years to be corrupt, there are glaring problems with the KKW. I have avoided any involvement with the KKW as far back as 1969 when I was in Korea. Abuse with rank, refereeing, certification, people inflating the costs associated with KKW rank, paying for KKW rank promotion and never receiving the certification . . . . . . Everyone has a story about the KKW or for that matter the ITF etc. WE ALLOW these abuses to go on and continue to support corrupt organizations. The rationalization that you need KKW certification for international events to me is a weak excuse. Of all of the members of the KKW how many actually participate in an international event? I should guess it's a small number compared to the actual number of members of the KKW. > > I'll guess 90% of school owners on this list have an >"evaluation period" for transfer Dans regardless of the source >of their first piece of paper. I would agree with you here. I would wager any of the senior guys on the list could have a room full of folks with white belts (not their real rank) and within a few minutes line them up from highest to lowest without much problem. Well, there could be some in the group that were lower rank and not promoted but passed over for personal or political reasons :-) So - is there really a reason everyone wants to have KKW or ITF certification? Personally I would rather have a certificate signed by an instructor I have studied with than the signature of someone I don't know, they don't know me - or my ability, the instructor that knows me is able to say to the world "I know this person - they are this rank - and I personally stand behind the skill and knowledge that I recognize in them". Rick Clark > stay well, I will sure try to do that! I have been in and out of the hospital the last 3 months or so with 4 operations - replacing a defibrillator, putting in new wires, taking out old wires, blood clot to the jugular - I am getting real tired of taking vacations in the hospital! You know it's getting bad when the nurses in the hospital begin to remember you from your last "visit" :-) Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Johnnie Rouse" To: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:18:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ricks Questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Rick: >Do you see any relevance to the various moves in the forms when it comes >to self-defense or sparring? Do you emulate the moves in the forms when >you spar or in self defense? >What are the skills you are "honing"? Only to the extent that one should be building a since of timing and balance. The forms should be designed to work on inherent movement mechanics that, upon repeated practice, become automatic in practical application. Does this mean perform a perfect squared up block, punch, kick or stance when or if the time comes,NO. It simply means, in theory, that whatever technique is used should end up being more effective. >At the risk of starting a flame war why is it important for you to have >KKW recognition. For example if someone moves there may not be a KKW >school in the area but an ITF school, or perhaps ATA, or they may not >have a TKD school near. Going into a school that is not KKW the KKW >certificate does not mean any more to a non KKW school than any other >certificate. First off I would like to say that I would never intentionally ruffle any ones feathers, so I'll try my best to explain my personal view on the value of an Internationally recognized BB certificate. Any one can "fill out" a piece of paper that certifies a rank or grade. More than likely the person receiving that piece of paper has worked very hard and long to get it. Chances are good that a some point in ones MA carrier they will, for what ever reason, move on from their original "school". Does this mean it has to be a KKW Certificate? NO, However I recommend Certification of like stature for any one I talk to. If only for their own piece of mind, document their hard work in a formal way. Depending on what some one may want to do with their TKD training and/or career should weigh heavily on just what certifying body they should elect go with. Johnnie --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KKW certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Abuse with rank, > refereeing, certification, people inflating the costs associated with > KKW rank, paying for KKW rank promotion and never receiving the > certification . . . . . . Everyone has a story about the KKW or for that > matter the ITF etc. The problem is less with the Kukkiwon and more with those that claim to offer Kukkiwon certs, but then pocket the $$ themselves. Like the chubby grandmaster wannabe from down Florida way. wrt to inflating the costs, the Kukkiwon costs are public information. They aren't inflating the charge, it is the instructor that inflates the charge. Let us not confuse the Kukkiwon with those instructors that often falsely claim to represent the Kukkiwon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: rooooot Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net speaking of root power: http://www.6rooms.com/watch/21824.html --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] video: clip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is a cool clip to promote competition TKD to some, but as far as self defense, there are too many things wrong...my main focus is lack of balance when executing a technique: http://media.putfile.com/taekwondo--free-fight any thoughts? Jye --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: ralphs@shentel.net From: ralphs@shentel.net Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:42:21 GMT Subject: [The_Dojang] Fight Science Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This should be of interest - a new show for Sunday Aug 20: "It strikes four times faster than a snake. It kicks with more than 1,000 pounds (453.59 kg) of force. And it can rival the impact of a 35 mph (56.33 kph) car crash. It's the most complex weapon ever designed—the human body." http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/fightscience/index.html Enjoy! --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Shentel WebMail. http://WebMail.Shentel.Net --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:43:33 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Ricks Questions To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jonnie, >From: Johnnie Rouse [mailto:rmetals@cmaaccess.com] >Hey Rick: >>Do you see any relevance to the various moves in the forms when it >>comes to self-defense or sparring? Do you emulate the moves in the >>forms when you spar or in self defense? > >>What are the skills you are "honing"? > >Only to the extent that one should be building a since of >timing and balance. OK - how do you build "timing" by the practice of forms? Would is not seem to be more practical to work on timing with a partner? Balance it would seem to me could be practiced in floor drills that would have relevance to sparing (for example). >The forms should be designed to work on >inherent movement mechanics that, upon repeated practice, >become automatic in practical application. OK - I can buy this - provide that the person practicing the movements has a clear idea of the application of the movement in the form and how it would be applied in a real life situation. >Does this mean perform a perfect squared up block, punch, kick or stance when >or if the time comes,NO. It simply means, in theory, that >whatever technique is used should end up being more effective. Nothing in real life will ever be perfect and even more so in a real life situation. This real life situation could be sparing, tournaments, or self defense and there will be some variation in the application of movement. You may not get full extension on a kick or punch, body position will probably not be picture perfect - that goes without saying. I am a firm believer in the idea that - individuals will revert to previously learned behavior in moments of stress. So *IF* you constantly practice to pull one hand back to your waist when you punch you will probably do that in a stressful situation. Or if you are accustomed to keeping your hand down at your body and not defending against a punch to the head you will probably will not do that in real life. >Johnnie Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:56:51 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KKW certification To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >> ... Abuse with rank, >> refereeing, certification, people inflating the costs >associated with >> KKW rank, paying for KKW rank promotion and never receiving the >> certification . . . . . . Everyone has a story about the KKW or for >> that matter the ITF etc. > >The problem is less with the Kukkiwon and more with those that >claim to offer Kukkiwon certs, but then pocket the $$ >themselves. Like the chubby grandmaster wannabe from down >Florida way. wrt to inflating the costs, the Kukkiwon costs >are public information. They aren't inflating the charge, it >is the instructor that inflates the charge. > >Let us not confuse the Kukkiwon with those instructors that >often falsely claim to represent the Kukkiwon. > >Ray Terry Not confusing this corruption at all with the ones that falsely claim affiliation - what about all the money the past president of the KKW diverted to personal use? Heck he was not even black belt and folks paid big bucks for the certificate. What about those instructors who do represent the KKW and do get certificates from the KKW BUT charge and inflated rate to the students. I don't mind a "bit" of profit to the instructors but there is a limit. Call it for what it is if you want - a testing fee, but don't claim it's $1,000 (more or less depending on the instructor) to get a certificate from the KKW and blame it on the KKW? Take Judo for example - you don't have to have a certificate from the Kodokan to participate in international events. Why should we allow power and authority to be centralized in Korea? Any of us who have been in the martial arts long enough have seen many - many examples of abuse and yet we do nothing or little to stop these actions. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KKW certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Not confusing this corruption at all with the ones that falsely claim > affiliation - what about all the money the past president of the KKW > diverted to personal use? Heck he was not even black belt and folks > paid big bucks for the certificate. Ok... But I thought Kim mostly took bribe $$ in his IOC role, not skimming from the Kukkiwon. Either way, yes, a former president of the WTF is now sitting in jail. > What about those instructors who do represent the KKW and do get > certificates from the KKW BUT charge and inflated rate to the students. > I don't mind a "bit" of profit to the instructors but there is a limit. > Call it for what it is if you want - a testing fee, but don't claim it's > $1,000 (more or less depending on the instructor) to get a certificate > from the KKW and blame it on the KKW? Exactly. You are making my point. Perhap we are in violent agreement on something here. The instructor should not blame the kukkiwon, and neither should the student that is paying the inflated price. The kukkiwon has published what they charge instructors for a dan cert. Any Google-using TKD student should be able to easily find that info. It is also found here, in the archives of this forum. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:13:43 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KKW certification To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > >> Not confusing this corruption at all with the ones that >falsely claim >> affiliation - what about all the money the past president of the KKW >> diverted to personal use? Heck he was not even black belt and folks >> paid big bucks for the certificate. > >Ok... But I thought Kim mostly took bribe $$ in his IOC role, >not skimming from the Kukkiwon. Either way, yes, a former >president of the WTF is now sitting in jail. You are right either way the guy was a crook put in his position by the Korean government to run the KKW. In large part my objection to the KKW is that is at its very heart it is political. They put a guy in charge that was not a martial artist, not even a 1st dan and yet his signature was the official mark of being a "true" black belt in TKD - well at least according to some . . . . > >> What about those instructors who do represent the KKW and do get >> certificates from the KKW BUT charge and inflated rate to the >> students. I don't mind a "bit" of profit to the instructors >but there >> is a limit. Call it for what it is if you want - a testing fee, but >> don't claim it's $1,000 (more or less depending on the >instructor) to >> get a certificate from the KKW and blame it on the KKW? > >Exactly. You are making my point. Perhap we are in violent >agreement on something here. The instructor should not blame >the kukkiwon, and neither should the student that is paying the inflated price. I do think the KKW should be blamed - they need to police their members. If some crook is taking advantage of students in the name of the KKW then the KKW needs to clean up the mess. BUT I suspect they don't want to do that because it may come a bit too close to home. Look at the scandals there have been in tournaments with the referees making biased calls. > >The kukkiwon has published what they charge instructors for a >dan cert. Any Google-using TKD student should be able to >easily find that info. It is also found here, in the archives of this forum. Sure you know that, and I know that BUT how many people who are 1st kup know that? How many parents of young kids will take the time to go online and look up this information. They TRUST their instructor because the are a MASTER or GRAND MASTER in TKD. It's not till later many find out that these guys can't walk on water or fly through the bamboo forests . . . . . . You know as well as I do - perhaps better some of the scams that these guys perpetrate on the general public. To say that I am, and have been disgusted with the politics and lack of morality of some in the martial arts - I don't even have words to express my feelings at least in a public forum. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] video: clip To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On top of that they seem to have forgotten that they have hands. Two hands are good for blocking kicks and especially handy for hand strikes, reverse punches, ridge hands, back fists etc. They looked athletic ehough but not able to do to well in a real life self-defense encounter. Steven Jye nigma wrote: This is a cool clip to promote competition TKD to some, but as far as self defense, there are too many things wrong...my main focus is lack of balance when executing a technique: http://media.putfile.com/taekwondo--free-fight any thoughts? Jye --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Sensei Steven Riggs Senior Instructor American Defensive Arts stevencriggs@yahoo.com www.americandefensivearts.org 828-322-6904 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest