Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:27:48 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #343 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. KKW certs (Charles Richards) 2. Re: Need for kukkiwon & college degrees in martial arts (sidtkd@aol.com) 3. RE: KKW certification (ISA Headquarters) 4. Certification (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. Small Circle vs BJJ (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. Re: KKW certification (Ray) 7. RE: KKW certs (Rick Clark) 8. RE: RE: Root and Center... (Stovall, Craig) 9. KKW certification (David Weller) 10. RE: RE: Root and Center... (Jye nigma) 11. KKW Certification Questions (Johnnie Rouse) 12. Rooting (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 13. degree in martial arts (sam saenz) 14. Re: Re: Need for kukkiwon & college degrees in martial arts (Steven Berkowitz) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 04:51:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW certs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Clark, Best wishes for your health. Consider yourself in receipt of some positive energy. Return to KKW. I currently have 3 athletes that enjoy all that goes with WTF style sparring, and have potential to do well with it. I know I'll get flamed for this comment, but the KKW 1st Dan is just something they need for higher level competition. No different than a passport. Assuming any of my three athlete's made a US national team they would need a US passport and a KKW cert to attend many of the international WTF events. It would be poor planning as a coach on my part if they didn't have those boxes checked before that offer came and they had to defer to the alternate team member. They like myself are more concerned with receiving a USKMAF Dan certificate in TangSooDo that is signed by Master Mac and GM West. Again, I have to agree with Ray. A KKW 1st Dan costs what the KKW website says. A student should arrange in advance what the total examination fee is and what that includes. Obviously that includes the time and expense of the test site and the time and expense for the examiner plus the administrative details of filing with KKW and forwarding to the candidate. What is fair is between those two people. I agree there are corrupt examiners out there, but so are some of the independents. Stay well, mc --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:07:43 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Need for kukkiwon & college degrees in martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I dare say, I believe that I have taken the loudest and perhaps most visible and maybe the most foolish stance on corruption in the kukkiwon fees. My article in Taekwondo Times this past January highlighted these abuses. Now why do we need the certificate? The same reason we need accredited college degrees. These relative certificates do not mean a guarantee that your skills will be the greatest, or that the degree means you are the brightest. You can compete anywhere without the kukkiwon certificate for sure...but it allows transferability from WTF school to another school without retesting from white belt as we had to do in 1960's. Corruption??? Whoa....it's everywhere in the martial arts. People sell black belts, phony doctorates and deeds to the uranium mines. Now as to fees...you could test with USA Taekwondo, Taekwondo Won, ISA (George Petrotta is a man among men and tests for a few dollars above the kukkiwon fee), Dr. Richard Chun, AAU Taekwondo and others and all will be as honest as can be. I would say the kukkiwon should have national offices that issues dans and not all the money should be kicked back. I've written here before about masters that have come from Korea as 3 or 4th dan and in a few months became 8th and 9th dans. I know a guy in Queens ,NY that accepted 30 fees for kukkiwon and kept the dough without giving kukkiwons. Oh yeah..he himself didn't have dan certification. I know of one guy that wrote to me saying his master wanted to charge him $6000 for 6th dan.I have made my doctoral dissertation on the abuse of martial arts. My payback for writing that article for Taekwondo Times is that the new owner has barred me for life from writing for the magazine again. For those that blame the kukkiwon for not policing the certificate problem would prhaps agree that we need an accreding system in the USA that does exactly this. In addition to the University of Bridgeport, there is Radford university, Concordia University, Grand Canyon University as well as Yong In University etc. Yours in TKD, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KKW certification Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:26:48 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To add my two cents on this, I know there are many, many 4th Dan and higher Americans who can recommend a student from 1st to 3rd Dan in the KKW. And they could do it for KKW fees, but you don't hear about them, as the minority always gets the limelight in this. For those "masters" and "grandmasters" who charge big bucks for a KKW certificate, I say "shame on you." But the KKW could stop this "scam" if they really wanted to. They just don't want to for some silly reason unknown to me. That is why I finally went ahead and got my 4th from the KKW, to help the those who wanted the 1st thru 3rd Dan from the KKW at a good price. Now I have the "Right to Recommend" from the KKW and do so on my web page at: http://www.sungjado.org/Kukkiwon_page.html Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 8463 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:42:36 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello to all I have been following the posts about the KKW Certification and the problems with that organization. I would like to say that I am with the Moo Duk Kwan and we do not have these issues. First off, aside from those MDK people not currently connected to the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Fed. All Moo Duk Kwan members receive certification form the Moo Duk Kwan only after all checks and balances have been performed. For example: The student test for Gup Ranks at the Do-Jang, The instructor then make a recommendation that the student pass. The paper work is sent to headquarters. Confirmation of the students membership is first, followed by confirmation of the instructors membership, rank, studio certification, and instructor certification. If all is in order, a cetificate is issued by the Moo Duk Kwan. The certificate is sent to the instructor who in turn signs the instructor line and presents it to the student. For Dan ranks, Student test at regional dan test in front of a board of Sa Bom certified instructors registered witht he Moo Duk Kwan. If all requirements are met, the board will make recommendation to HC Hwang KJN. This recommendation requires not only the recommendation of the testing board but also an appointed regional examiner for the region. If all is in order, a dan certificate will be issued along with a Dan Bon, by HC Hwang KJN and sent to the instructor. Only the Kwan Jang Nim can issue dan ranksor dan numbers. As for not knowing the person issueing the certificate, Most every member has met KJN before they become a dan, He is very available to all members. Kyo Sa certifaction works much in the same way. For 4th Dan and above, and Sa Bom certification, students must be recommended by their instructor, and excepted by the KJN to test, the test last 10 days and is the most intense training you can imagine. It is not designed to allow all to pass, most are physically prepared, but the mental tests are sometimes unexpected. If the student complete all the requirements, rank and or certification is issued by KJN HC Hwang, who also conducts the week long testing. Moo Duk Kwan certification is excepted any and everywhere in the world by other MDK studios, Due to the process all rank is earned, no bought certificates. The art is standarized as well so every school uses the same standard and rules, and terminology so changing schools is very easy. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:56:24 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Small Circle vs BJJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just thought I would drop this in the post for thoughts. I have training in Jujistu for now about 14 years. My instruction came from a former student of Professor Wally Jay of the Small Cirlce jujitsu system. As some already know, last week I spend some time in California, and got the opportunity to train at the Gracie Academy in Torrance, Cali. I trained with Rener (Hener) and Reylan (Haylen) Gracie. About 2 hours into our training. I ask Rener, about some of the differences in Small Circle and BJJ. I gave an example of a choke using the two way action of the wrist vs the Matte Leo choke (Rear Naked) His answer was demonstate. I demonstrated on one of my students that I had brought with me. He said OK now do it to me. I tryed and could not. He was very respectfull but said the Gracie's only use technique that is tested in battle. Although I have used this technique many times in class to submit students, it was obvious it was not going to work on Rener. He said quote "I suggest if it does not work eliminated it from the book" I have great respect for the small circle system, however I have never really made this comparrison. What are the thoughts from the Do-Jang on this on Small Circle Jujitsu vs BJJ JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KKW certification To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You are right either way the guy was a crook put in his position by the > Korean government to run the KKW. In large part my objection to the KKW > is that is at its very heart it is political. Actually Kim was put in charge of the KTA and later the WTF. > They put a guy in charge > that was not a martial artist, not even a 1st dan and yet his signature > was the official mark of being a "true" black belt in TKD - well at > least according to some . . . . As the head of the organization for Kukki-Taekwondo, not as the top martial artist for TKD or even Kukki-Taekwondo. IMHO, what the Korean gov wanted to do was put someone in charge of first the KTA and later the WTF that was NOT a top martial artist. Why? So that it would not end up like so many (not all) other groups that splinter when the leader 'leaves'. e.g. look at what happened to the ITF once Gen. Choi was no longer involved. Kim gets thrown in jail and the WTF and KTA move forward, hardly missing a step. Is the kukkiwon (not the same as the WTF and/or the KTA) without fault? No. But it is also not part of the axis of evil as some might have you believe. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:33:18 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KKW certs To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Charles, >Master Clark, Please use Rick - > > Best wishes for your health. Consider yourself in receipt >of some positive energy. :-) thanks I did not mean to mention my health but I'll use it as an excuse to be a bit more blunt than usual and claim that I was not felling well when I wrote something that may not be as PC as I would have wanted - might as well make use of any opportunity I can :-) > Return to KKW. > > I currently have 3 athletes that enjoy all that goes with >WTF style sparring, and have potential to do well with it. I >know I'll get flamed for this comment, but the KKW 1st Dan is >just something they need for higher level competition. No >different than a passport. OK - WHY is it necessary? I understand that's what is needed NOW for completion for TKD if you send your students to a KKW sponsored event. But those are not the only tournaments and they are certainly not the only international events. I'll go back to Judo for a moment, in the past the Kodokan was THE place certification was issued. But not any more, individual countries and groups in those countries promote and the rank is recognized internationally. The point I am trying to make is that the power and authority is centralized in Korea and run by Koreans. We allow this to happen, we give them the power and we do not have any control over their actions. Money talks, it talks big time. If all of the KKW schools in the US were to quit supporting the KKW until there were changes and reforms I suspect there would be some changes made. The folks in the US need to be in charge of TKD in the US, the Brits need to be in charge of TKD in the UK, French in charge of France . . . . . Let the Koreans run TKD in Korea but why should they be the bosses of TKD around the world? > > Assuming any of my three athlete's made a US national team >they would need a US passport and a KKW cert to attend many of >the international WTF events. It would be poor planning as a >coach on my part if they didn't have those boxes checked >before that offer came and they had to defer to the alternate >team member. WTF is not the only game in town. If they don't have the competitors and the numbers they lose power and influence, when they do that then they MAY decide to make some fundamental changes that will benefit you and your students. > > They like myself are more concerned with receiving a USKMAF >Dan certificate in TangSooDo that is signed by Master Mac and GM West. > > Again, I have to agree with Ray. A KKW 1st Dan costs what >the KKW website says. A student should arrange in advance >what the total examination fee is and what that includes. Sure I agree with you - to a point. Parents just don't know enough about martial arts to make clear informed decisions. I suspect one of the reasons why people drop out after getting 1st dan is that they start to learn more about the politics and get disgusted and quit. >Obviously that includes the time and expense of the test site >and the time and expense for the examiner plus the >administrative details of filing with KKW and forwarding to >the candidate. What is fair is between those two people. Believe me I don't think that instructors should not make money when they teach, I am all in favor of professional schools run by well trained and educated instructors who do make enough money from teaching to raise a family and have a good life style. Teaching full time is hard on a family, even a part time instructor has demands on a family. > I agree there are corrupt examiners out there, but so are >some of the independents. Sure there are bad guys out there and lots of them. I guess I am just an old fuddy duddy who has a real problem with such a group. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center... Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:36:59 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<< The whole root thing is very interesting. Because depending on what point of view that you take you will naturally see thing from that angle. With the odd exception boxers throw power punches with their feet "planted" and they can throw lighter punches like jabs while on their toes. You pick the tools to solve your problems Peter>>> I could not have said it better myself. Look at Ali..he could hit hard and fast while moving. Roy Jones was a master of this. Naseem Hamed is probably the ultimate example. He could knock people out with one punch while moving in any direction...even BACKWARDS. Go find the Naseem highlight on the web that was put together by "Daisukey". It will change everything you ever thought about rooting, power punching, etc. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: David Weller Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:02:58 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark, I agree wholeheartedly with the statement here. The man who really matters to me, by allowing and recommending me to test, has given me all I need to "prove" my rank. I do however get a KKW certificate from him. If it caught on fire I would not lose a moments sleep, nor think that somehow my tiny skill set had evaporated. If something happened to my teacher, and friend, I would be devastated. But I would still be who I am, and would proudly pass on what he has taught me! We can argue all day long about the paper but at the end of the day, it matters not a whit. However, I will NOT not accept, or refuse to pay, for the KKW certification my teacher supplies, that would be a slap in the face to him. And THAT could get a man hurt!! :) So, yes, there is a good reason for ME to have KKW certification. Dave Weller On Aug 17, 2006, at 4:59 AM, Mr. Clark wrote: > So - is there really a reason everyone wants to have KKW or ITF > certification? Personally I would rather have a certificate signed by > an instructor I have studied with than the signature of someone I > don't > know, they don't know me - or my ability, the instructor that knows me > is able to say to the world "I know this person - they are this rank - > and I personally stand behind the skill and knowledge that I recognize > in them". --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:28:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The boxers feet being "planted" would be defined as establishing root in martial arts terms. This is most likely the most popular way to apply technique using root. Basically, find your opening and when the time is right establish root and attack. There is a moving root that internal styles utilize. but in the examples of the people you've mentioned below, throwing hard hits while moving, no one said it is impossible to throw knockout or powerful punches without being rooted. The difference is just like punching using only shoulder strength vs using total body strength. This is the whole focal point of root....whole body power. Jye "Stovall, Craig" wrote: <<< The whole root thing is very interesting. Because depending on what point of view that you take you will naturally see thing from that angle. With the odd exception boxers throw power punches with their feet "planted" and they can throw lighter punches like jabs while on their toes. You pick the tools to solve your problems Peter>>> I could not have said it better myself. Look at Ali..he could hit hard and fast while moving. Roy Jones was a master of this. Naseem Hamed is probably the ultimate example. He could knock people out with one punch while moving in any direction...even BACKWARDS. Go find the Naseem highlight on the web that was put together by "Daisukey". It will change everything you ever thought about rooting, power punching, etc. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Johnnie Rouse" To: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:08:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW Certification Questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick I have never felt that some one setting around doing a bashing program has ever led to a productive end result. It seems to me that this is the direction this thread is headed. I would like to give you a little personal background so you may understand the context of my comments. I was practicing TKD in Korea during the time that the Kwans were finalizing the unity into the KTA,(I really don't need any comment on the rest of that story). I was at the ground breaking for the KKW (National Gym) and also at the Grand Opening in November 72. I have an extensive background in TKD and have personally always supported the unity effort and the KKW. I find it disconcerting when someone starts cherry picking and taking pot shots as it appears to me that you have been doing. I know of some of the problems that you have issues with, many of then have been dealt with, and there is certainly room for improvements. Most people have the intellectual ability to know the difference between people problems and an root organizational problem. I normally find that people that can't distinguish the difference between the two are either, least experienced or just plain inherently ignorant. It is much more impressive to me when someone sees a problem and works diligently to resolve it. Throwing stones never seams to settle any issue. So, I would like to know what efforts you have make in order to help resolve some of the problems you have enumerated? Johnnie Rouse --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:11:44 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Rooting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye sent the clip: >speaking of root power: http://www.6rooms.com/watch/21824.html Anybody remember what Bruce Lee did when asked to push a taijiquan master like this on Hong Kong tv? He punched him in the face instead. Worked fine. :) Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:27:21 -0700 (PDT) From: sam saenz To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] degree in martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The University of Radford has a martial arts program directed by Dr. Jerry Beasley. I believe it is in Virginia if I am not mistaken. Sam Saenz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Need for kukkiwon & college degrees in martial arts Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:02:14 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So, just do it. There can be a Verification Board, not to award dans, but to verify legitimacy of claims made when the question arises by people seeking honest reputable schools. Simply takes a group of likeminded individuals of (reasonably) high caliber to agree to work together to fight the phony claims, able to comfortably communicate with the various orfanizations by paper, email and phone. My gosh, nothing is impossible for those who are bold and seek truth and not be intimidated by loudmouths. On this group alone exists 4 or 5 folk who are internationally known and appreciated, who would make perfect candidates. Ask them. blessings, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:07 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Need for kukkiwon & college degrees in martial arts > I dare say, I believe that I have taken the loudest and perhaps most visible > and maybe the most foolish stance on corruption in the kukkiwon fees. My > article in Taekwondo Times this past January highlighted these abuses. Now why > do we need the certificate? The same reason we need accredited college > degrees. These relative certificates do not mean a guarantee that your skills will > be the greatest, or that the degree means you are the brightest. You can > compete anywhere without the kukkiwon certificate for sure...but it allows > transferability from WTF school to another school without retesting from white > belt as we had to do in 1960's. Corruption??? Whoa....it's everywhere in the > martial arts. People sell black belts, phony doctorates and deeds to the uranium > mines. Now as to fees...you could test with USA Taekwondo, Taekwondo Won, > ISA (George Petrotta is a man among men and tests for a few dollars above the > kukkiwon fee), Dr. Richard Chun, AAU Taekwondo and others and all will be as > honest as can be. I would say the kukkiwon should have national offices that > issues dans and not all the money should be kicked back. I've written here > before about masters that have come from Korea as 3 or 4th dan and in a few > months became 8th and 9th dans. I know a guy in Queens ,NY that accepted 30 > fees for kukkiwon and kept the dough without giving kukkiwons. Oh yeah..he > himself didn't have dan certification. I know of one guy that wrote to me saying > his master wanted to charge him $6000 for 6th dan.I have made my doctoral > dissertation on the abuse of martial arts. My payback for writing that article > for Taekwondo Times is that the new owner has barred me for life from writing > for the magazine again. For those that blame the kukkiwon for not policing the > certificate problem would prhaps agree that we need an accreding system in > the USA that does exactly this. > > In addition to the University of Bridgeport, there is Radford university, > Concordia University, Grand Canyon University as well as Yong In University etc. > > > Yours in TKD, > > > Sid Rubinfeld > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.0/420 - Release Date: 8/16/2006 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest