Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:42:25 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #345 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Dr. Beasley (Charles Richards) 2. Kukkiwon (tim collatz) 3. small circle vs bjj (Mike Donahoo) 4. Re: Rick's comments (sidtkd@aol.com) 5. KKW Certification And Others (Johnnie Rouse) 6. KKW certs (Don Ross) 7. RE: small circle vs bjj (michael tomlinson) 8. Small Circle vs BJJ (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. 'Good' technique (Don Ross) 10. RE: double forearm - c-block - square block (Joseph Cheavens) 11. RE: Hapkido techniques that "don't work" (Howard Spivey) 12. Re: Kukkiwon (Ray) 13. Re: RE: Hapkido techniques that "don't work" (Jay O'Connor) 14. Re: Efforts to improve the Kukkiwon (tkdsid@aol.com) 15. (no subject) (pathwayma@charter.net) 16. Re: RE: Hapkido techniques that "don't work" (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dr. Beasley Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i read " The University of Radford has a martial arts program directed by Dr. Jerry Beasley. I believe it is in Virginia if I am not mistaken." mc reply South western Virginia about 15 miles from VA TECH. Dr. Beasley also organizes an indepenedent Karate instructors organization and hosts the annual Karate College ( long weekend training) in Radford, VA in June. I believe he is affiliated with Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis yours in jung do, mc --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "tim collatz" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:12:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Clark, I agree with you 100%, except the term disgusted, when talking about the Kukkiwon, is an understatement. They need to stand behind all of the people who have been ripped off by "unsavory instructors". Taekwondo is more than a martial art-it is a way of living. Instead of teaching "The Spirit of the Eight Manners" (which was actually taught to me by my parents-we just called it something else), they (the Kukkiwon) need to start practicing it. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:55:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] small circle vs bjj Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i agree with everyone else thought on discarding this technique. LEAVE your technique and seek someone to teach or clarify the technique that you showed the gracie's. then ADD the variation of the choke that the gracie's showed you to your tool-box. if you discard the technique you have studied for 14 years then it will be lost. by throwing out techniques that "don't work" students, instructors, and school owners are in danger of turning there system and school into a McDojo. by removing techniques the system becomes watered down. i believe in teaching all techniques - even ones that don't work as well as others. everything has a purpose, even if it is just teaching a technique for the history of the art. i study and teach taekwondo. my master taught us a double forearm block / c-block / square block. you will probably never use this block other than in form. i can't think of a practical use for it in self-defense. that doesn't mean i would drop the technique in favor of one that works better. teach them both and explain the uses to the students. just my cent-and-a-half In devotion to the art, Mike Donahoo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:56:51 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rick's comments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick, IMHO you have been very kind regarding the KKW and the politics. You HAVE not been cherry picking. I believe when you air problems you have already begun to fix them. I would be very interested to hear all you have to say regarding corruption, fraud and mismanagement in the KKW, the greed of some of the Korean masters etc. Awaiting, Sid --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Johnnie Rouse" To: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:05:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW Certification And Others Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick: To: "dojang_digest" Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:16:19 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW certs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick Clark wrote: I would agree with you here. I would wager any of the senior guys on the list could have a room full of folks with white belts (not their real rank) and within a few minutes line them up from highest to lowest without much problem. Well, there could be some in the group that were lower rank and not promoted but passed over for personal or political reasons :-) So - is there really a reason everyone wants to have KKW or ITF certification? Personally I would rather have a certificate signed by an instructor I have studied with than the signature of someone I don't know, they don't know me - or my ability, the instructor that knows me is able to say to the world "I know this person - they are this rank - and I personally stand behind the skill and knowledge that I recognize in them". Master Clark, Again, Sir, you zeroed in on the crux of the situation: accountability of instructors 'certifying', or as you say, 'standing behind' the students they promote, and however lofty or commendable the concept of certification by a higher authority, the lack of any real need for it beyond ego-boosting, fee generation, and 'international' participation for that tiny fraction of a percent of world-class athletes. On the flip side, consider: higher levels of certification and fee payments confer bragging rights, 'yeah, I'm a 4th Dan, KKW certified out of Korea. Cost me $$$$$$!' Regardless of where our 'dan certs' come from, is there ANYONE on this list who does not feel a degree of personal pride and accomplishment in earning our rank? No matter how hard we try, we are all human beings first, martial artists supposedly steeped in Oriental philosophy second, so we have an emotional need to 'belong' to something greater than ourselves. At the end of the day, as you said, even wearing white belts [which DO keep the dobok snug every bit as well as a black belt ], a competent instructor can see and evaluate students according to ABILITY, not the costume [well, there IS that purple spandex dobok ]. Trust the medical difficulties get sorted out and you get more vacation OUT of the hospital, Sir. pil seung, Don Ross I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure. - Clarence Darrow [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Emoticon1.gif] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] small circle vs bjj Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:18:54 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net True, very true. I've noticed that a lot of the Hapkido techniques that I didn't understand years ago have become more relevant to me now...there is a point in Hapkido when you realize that some techniques have a reactive use when it is put in a sequence with other techniques going towards realtime speed and basic human nature reactions...most humans react to certain physical stimuli in a common denominator way...there is a basic set of human responses to what you are doing to them...kind of the same grappling principle that there are about 10 basic positions that everyone ends up in whether they are a master or whether they are in the 6th grade and are rolling in their backyard with their friends....once you kind of boil the stuff down you can solidify the use of more techniques....or at least see where and why they are in the system... I also understand that although I teach and keep alive certain Hapkido techniques and traditions that in a real down to earth life and death situation the basics and high percentage techniques are what I will fall back on .... Michael Tomlinson >From: Mike Donahoo >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] small circle vs bjj >Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:55:37 -0700 (PDT) > >i agree with everyone else thought on discarding this >technique. LEAVE your technique and seek someone to >teach or clarify the technique that you showed the >gracie's. then ADD the variation of the choke that >the gracie's showed you to your tool-box. if you >discard the technique you have studied for 14 years >then it will be lost. by throwing out techniques that >"don't work" students, instructors, and school owners >are in danger of turning there system and school into >a McDojo. by removing techniques the system becomes >watered down. i believe in teaching all techniques - >even ones that don't work as well as others. >everything has a purpose, even if it is just teaching >a technique for the history of the art. i study and >teach taekwondo. my master taught us a double forearm >block / c-block / square block. you will probably >never use this block other than in form. i can't >think of a practical use for it in self-defense. that >doesn't mean i would drop the technique in favor of >one that works better. teach them both and explain >the uses to the students. just my cent-and-a-half > >In devotion to the art, >Mike Donahoo > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:35:38 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Small Circle vs BJJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To answer yur question about my small circle experiance. I trained with Mr. John Willy of Hawaii. He was a student threre while in the Military. He later moved to Texas where he and I trained together for 7 plus years he now lives in California, but trains with another system and organization. I feel very comfortable with the two way wrist action of the small circle system, however having been exposed to the Gracie Academy. I now have both sources of information to compare and the comparisons are very interesting. In some ways the finger and small join work is a great self defense value, but can't be done in the cage. On the other side the battle tested techniques of the Gracie system appears from my perspective to be more effective. I feel blessed to experiance both. The last thing is that niether one has any effective stand-up. which is why in the early UFC's the Gracie won everything, but now close to half are won with a standing KO. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Don Ross" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:43:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] 'Good' technique Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with Master Hillard and others re not discarding a technique just because 'it doesn't work.'as due to ones lack of training/understanding. I would also respectfully suggest these reasons for keeping techniques your particular style's founder included: - there are multiple techniques, tools, for various situations because 'one size' does NOT fit all... - differences in body type and physiology make some techniques more effective than others. I try to learn the techniques my GM teaches and their nuances so I can teach them to students. Some will not 'work' for me personally, but may be a life-saver for a student down the road. The 'toolbox' you teach and the one you can bet the farm on may not be identical for each individual. Just MVHO. pil seung, Don Ross I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure. - Clarence Darrow --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] double forearm - c-block - square block Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:04:27 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you are refering to the double arm block in Palgwe Sa-jang and Taebaek (keumgang momtong-makki), which is followed by an uppercut with the back upwardblocking arm, then I think it has a practicle application in hoshinsul that is not discussed on the Kukkiwon Web site, which shows it being used to defend against a middle punch. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03_11_ex2.jsp?div=04 The way we practiced it for hoshinsul was as a defense against a double handed lapel grab. From junbi, as the attacker steps forward to grab the lapels (best done as he is reaching for the grab, not once he has the grab), step back from his advancing foot into back stance (i.e. if he steps forward with his left foot you step back with your right foot) while executing the keumgang momtong-makki. The block accomplishes two important things. First, it breaks the attackers ballance by directing his lead arm upward while directing his rear arm to the side (Aikido has a similar defense against a two handed wrist grab). Second, it opens up the attackers arms for the counter attack (upper cut). Of slightly less importance, the upper block serves as a wind up for the upper cut counter attack. If the block is timed and executed properly, the attacker should still be off ballance when you deliver the upper cut. HTH Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Donahoo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] small circle vs bjj Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:55:37 -0700 (PDT)  i study and teach taekwondo. my master taught us a double forearm block / c-block / square block. you will probably never use this block other than in form. i can't think of a practical use for it in self-defense. that doesn't mean i would drop the technique in favor of one that works better. teach them both and explain the uses to the students. just my cent-and-a-half In devotion to the art, Mike Donahoo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:14:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido techniques that "don't work" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Jere and Michael, you can put me on the list of people who agree with what you've both said. I've yet to run across a Hapkido technique that is inherently ineffective. Yes, the advanced techniques, especially the subtle ones that use what the Japanese call "aiki", are difficult. But they do work. It just takes years and years of practice to be able to do them effectively, and without muscling them. I'm sure I'm not the only Hapkido guy out there who is still struggling with more than one technique, but the only way to make them work is to practice them until you're blue in the face. There is a Chinese calligraphy tapestry that hangs in the Jungkikwan in Daegu. I'm told that it comes from Choi Young Sool himself. A rough translation of what is says is, "practice a technique one hundred times, and you begin to learn it. Practice it a thousand times, and it becomes a skill that is part of your being." Choi used to say that after forty years of practice, you can claim that you are proficient in the basics of Hapkido. I think the determination to improve until you can make the difficult techniques work, and to acknowledge that it just doesn't come easy, is what keeps many of us going back to the dojang time after time. Jere Hilland wrote: "I have a real problem with that advice. In hapkido, there is an old saying that if you can't get a technique to work, then you should learn how it does. Eliminating it 'from the book', does not help you learn the correct way to perform the technique. In hapkido, there is another old saying that states, "if you don't teach it, who will?" In other words, just because a teacher can't get a technique to work does not mean that the technique is invalid, just that the teacher doesn't know it well enough. Sorry about slamming that quote but it is bad advice on several levels and has been a real issue in hapkido with those who want a fast high dan rank without actually learning the art or its techniques." Michael Tomlinson wrote: "...just because someone can't get something to work "most" of the time lies with them and their training and not the technique....or I should say their LACK of training and understanding...I figure that if it is in Hapkido and is under the auspice of Choi Yong Sool, Ji Han Jae, Chong S.Kim, Bong Soo Han, He Young Kim, J.R.West, Hal Whalen, Rudy Timmerman and many other great Hapkido Masters...then who am I to say something doesn't work...more training with good masters..less ego and less wanting to start your own system..." --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kukkiwon To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ..., when talking about the > Kukkiwon, is an understatement. They need to stand behind all of the > people who have been ripped off by "unsavory instructors". Just how would the kukkiwon or the KHF or the [insert large org here] do that? These groups are in literally hundreds of countries around the world, each country with a different legal system, and we are talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands of instructors. Would they kick the unsavory instructor out of an org that they probably never really belonged to in the first place? Or bring a legal case against these instructors, in the USA and Costa Rica and Brazil and New Zealand and Japan and ... ? Assume we put you in charge instead of GM Woon Kyu Uhm? How would you stand behind all the people, all around the world, that come to you claiming to have been ripped-off by fake kukkiwon instructors? Just tring to get to some positive dialogue and concrete suggestions... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:36:17 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido techniques that "don't work" Cc: Howard Spivey Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ---- Howard Spivey wrote: > Hello Jere and Michael, you can put me on the list of people who agree with > what you've both said. > > I've yet to run across a Hapkido technique that is inherently ineffective. > Yes, the advanced techniques, especially the subtle ones that use what the > Japanese call "aiki", are difficult. But they do work. It just takes years > and years of practice to be able to do them effectively, and without > muscling them. I'm sure I'm not the only Hapkido guy out there who is still > struggling with more than one technique, but the only way to make them work > is to practice them until you're blue in the face. > > There is a Chinese calligraphy tapestry that hangs in the Jungkikwan in > Daegu. I'm told that it comes from Choi Young Sool himself. A rough > translation of what is says is, "practice a technique one hundred times, and > you begin to learn it. Practice it a thousand times, and it becomes a skill > that is part of your being." Choi used to say that after forty years of > practice, you can claim that you are proficient in the basics of Hapkido. > > I think the determination to improve until you can make the difficult > techniques work, and to acknowledge that it just doesn't come easy, is what > keeps many of us going back to the dojang time after time. One thing I think that has bothered me with this mentality is that while it works as a gradual improvement of ability in many areas, we are talking about *martial* arts, here. Practicing a technique a thousand times is nice in order to master it, but as I used to tell my first instructor "I have a gig this Saturday..I'll be playing at a bar...if something goes wrong...I need something *now* that will work at my level of experience after having practiced it maybe a few dozen times" I can't choose the time and place of an encounter, so I can't rely on just learning techniques that are going to take me years to execute properly and decades to master. As an abstract art form, that would work, as a "get my butt out of trouble"..I need to mix in something that can be practical today...tonight...this week, as well. Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:03:22 -0400 From: tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Efforts to improve the Kukkiwon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've seen many people post here and ask, "What are you doing to improve things?" Let me respond to all those that are critical. First of all, it is NOT required that anyone HAVE to improve anything. One can be critical without bearing the obligation to rewrite the ways things "ought" to be. Moreover, criticism by and of itself helps to make things better. But ya know...when you are honest yourself, charge practically nothing for a kukkiwon certificate and get the certificate for your students straight away AND point out that there are some amongst us that are less than noble...what happens? The grandmasters try to shut you up anyway they can and others like things the way they are. Very few people here agree that we need an oversight body to watch the goings on. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. AAU, Taekwondo Won, ISA, Richard Chun etc. etc; by keeping fees low and acting in an honest and efficient manner, motivate and quite frankly...force the corrupt masters out there to lower fees and deliver. I think its wise to post on Bullshido.com any improper behavior. The chubby wannabee is cringing right now!!!! Sincerely, Sid ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:21:40 -0700 From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I live in the northern half of Georgia. Does anyone know of schools in North Georgia that teach Jiu Jitsu, Japanese sword fighting (katana), or something similar to any of those? Josh Stirring from a long stint in stealth mode. There is a martial arts school in Duluth Georgia that teaches the way of the Korean sword. The link is listed below. I hope it helps. http://www.atlantakumdo.com/ Returns to stealth mode, listening and learning. Yours in Jung Do Joe Clarke Pathway Martial Arts USKMAF --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido techniques that "don't work" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > One thing I think that has bothered me with this mentality is that while it works as a gradual improvement of ability in many areas, we are talking about *martial* arts, here. Practicing a technique a thousand times is nice in order to master it, but as I used to tell my first instructor "I have a gig this Saturday..I'll be playing at a bar...if something goes wrong...I need something *now* that will work at my level of experience after having practiced it maybe a few dozen times" I can't choose the time and place of an encounter, so I can't rely on just learning techniques that are going to take me years to execute properly and decades to master. As an abstract art form, that would work, as a "get my butt out of trouble"..I need to mix in something that can be practical today...tonight...this week, as well. > > I hear ya... but even if I recommended that you get your CCW and carry and handgun to deal with things that go wrong, it still takes time and training to employ that tool effectively. There isn't much that you can really depend on after only a dozen or so practice sessions. You probably didn't learn how to play music very well after only a few practice sessions. However one thing that I can think of would be to have you work on your state of awareness of what is going on around you. Live in Condition Yellow. Condition White is when you are daydreaming, paying no attention to what is going on. In Condition Yellow you notice the clouds in the sky, the birds in the trees and that fellow in the T-shirt walking up behind you. In Condition Orange you are starting to get the sense that something might be about to go wrong, so your senses are peaked and you begin thinking about how to gain distance from the situation, etc. In Condition Red you are certain that something is going wrong, you are now running down the street or finding cover or grabbing the nearest weapon. In Condition Black you are in the fight, taking rounds from down range getting punched in the face, or something similarly bothersome. A similar color scheme is, or was, used by the military, but the above adds one more level to make it more applicable for use by civilians. Getting a student to live in a state of Condition Yellow is one of the quickest lessons you can teach someone. It is not living in a state of paranoia, it is simply being aware of and enjoying the world around you. Of course, the problem with Condition White is that you don't notice what is going on around you. So you can easily end up in Condition Black before you even know what is going on. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest