Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:46:30 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #352 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. advice (t.metzner1) 2. Re: advice (DonnaMarie Celauro) 3. Re: Re: Tom..see Steve Berkowitz (Steven Berkowitz) 4. Re: advice (Steven Berkowitz) 5. Re: KKW Certs. Pyung-Ahn Side note (steven riggs) 6. Re: just a thought (s. yates) 7. protecting children (Mark Gajdostik) 8. Re: (no subject) (Jye nigma) 9. Re: RE: Root and Center (Jye nigma) 10. RE: Re: Martial arts oversight board (Thomas Gordon) 11. RE: advice (Thomas Gordon) 12. RE: just a thought (Thomas Gordon) 13. RE: governing body and regulation (Thomas Gordon) 14. Re: Tournament coming (ISA Headquarters) 15. RE: Mr. Rubinfeld (Joseph Cheavens) 16. Re: Hackworth, hack dan certificates and hack it all with the paper (sidtkd@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "t.metzner1" To: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:58:33 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] advice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Dodge, Have you considered training in a pool? The water makes for great resistance without the impact that can aggrevate your toe injury. Tom Metzner Would anyone care to give me some advice on continuing my Tae Kwon Do training with a fractured toe? I cannot sit and wait three more weeks (dr. said four weeks of rest) before returning to training. I don't want to have to start rebuilding my strength, speed and stamina from scratch. I am continuing to work on upper body, but need some way of maintaining/strengthening my lower body, as well. Any advice would be appreciated! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "DonnaMarie Celauro" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] advice Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:04:47 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Don't over do it!!!!! I broke my 5th metarsal during my 1st Dan test. I also have a medical back ground. Don't push, ease back into it. No power kicking for at least 5 weeks. Forms and light drills won't damage your foot after 4 weeks.  GOOD LUCK!! Mine gets sore from time to time and it's been two years!!!   -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] advice Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:08:06 -0500 Dave, Mr. John Chambers & Mr. Berkowitz, Thanks for the advice. I'll continue to work on the upper body and stretch the lower half until it hurts, at least for another week. Then maybe return to a light workout depending on level of discomfort and balance. Thanks! Victor _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Tom..see Steve Berkowitz Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:11:01 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net see me? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I look at myself most days and wonder "how did I get this far without bein' locked up"??? ;o)))) anti-war protester in the 70s, then wanting to become airborne 2 years later; trained in some odd fields over the years, hangin' out with seriously deranged jarhead types who all got dead way too early....can't decide if I like coffee or grapefruit juice in the morning, yet dichotomous in my own thoughts about good and evil and absolutely clear and sure when looking through a scope as the arbiter of the the issue. (actually, the US Gov't and Israel seem to like me...and the City allows me to teach, and the YMCA does, and all that, and I can still get a CCW) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:03 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tom..see Steve Berkowitz > I don't know if its a misunderstanding or purposeful obfuscation that's > going on here. What is it that folks don't understand? No...we don't put crooks > on regulatory boards...everyone knows that. We are not advocating for a fixed > fee..or to mandate how a roundhouse is thrown. Or for that matter whatever the > devil a "sold-out" martial artist is. Master Lim risked a whole lot putting > out the truth about the chubby wannabee. But once again, and I hope the last > time here's what I think: > 1) I don't want guys with prison records around kids > 2) I don't want children molested > 3) I don't want consumer fraud > 4) I don't want dangerous dojangs > > Just so there's no misunderstanding...if I have to balance greed against a > child's safety I couldn't give a damn if 80% of the dojangs went under if no > kids were hurt. Now stew in that and don't change what I say to make it sound > like I'm into your pockets. Charge $10,000 for a dan for all I care, but > deliver it. If you can get a moron to pay over $150 for a first dan when you can > get it from USA Taekwondo for $125...go right ahead. I don't care if you make > a million a day or go out of business tomorrow. I care about the above 4 > things that are abridged and violated daily. > > Sid Rubinfeld > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] advice Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:35:05 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I do agree that pool training is a wonderful interim regimen. I do it just for fun! ----- Original Message ----- From: "t.metzner1" To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:58 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] advice > Mr. Dodge, > > Have you considered training in a pool? The water makes for great resistance > without the impact that can aggrevate your toe injury. > > Tom Metzner > > Would anyone care to give me some advice on continuing my Tae Kwon Do > training with a fractured toe? > I cannot sit and wait three more weeks (dr. said four weeks of rest) before > returning to training. I don't want to have to start rebuilding my > strength, speed and stamina from scratch. I am continuing to work on upper > body, but need some way of maintaining/strengthening my lower body, as > well. > Any advice would be appreciated! > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:44:30 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KKW Certs. Pyung-Ahn Side note To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net They are from grandmaster Itosu from Okinawa. The same basic form is referred to as Pinan, Pyong, Heinan. Same form, different names, different countries and grandmasters encouraging their students to use them and make some modifications. Example. In the 10th move of E-dan in the Korean version it has a side kick. in the Wado-ryu version it has a front kick. From my research it would appear that the original form had a front kick and not the side kick that is often used today. Steven Johnnie Rouse wrote: Hi Rick, >Rick Clark :wrote: >There is no way that the Pyung-ahn form are from Koryo I should have been more clear i suposse. I was refering to the current condition of my personal notes not the origen of the Pyung-Ahn hyong motions. Johnnie Rouse _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Sensei Steven Riggs Senior Instructor American Defensive Arts stevencriggs@yahoo.com www.americandefensivearts.org 828-322-6904 --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:20:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "s. yates" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] just a thought To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, How about designing what you feel this governing body would encompass. I would be interested in seeing what you would look for. Would their be different committees for different arts or one general committee overseeing rank fraud, and or general background? Thoughts? Scott Yates --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mark Gajdostik" To: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:34:46 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] protecting children Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, Thought I'd jump in on this one. About a year ago here there was an incident at a spendy national chain-local fitness/health club,(heavily regulated industry) that had in place; criminal background checks on employees, training of employees to recognize abuse, multiple people in room, camera's recording everything...... ***A child care worker at the club sexually abused several kids*** Criminal background check didn't work. Kids still got molested. Many people quit the club after the incident---and had a hell of a time getting any $$ back and the club refused to let the victim out of contract. In 1 year I responded to no less than 7 physical brawls at the location, several muggings in the parking lot, lots of car break-ins and 1 rape. While responding there I noted several customers were themselves convicted criminals---we cant ban customers can we??? Criminals, sex crimes, danger. And the club tried very hard to make everyone safe. There are so many things in everyday life that are dangerous and when I hear someone saying it is 'for the children' I am always wary of the other things that come with that protection. Regulation won't really protect anyone 100%. Never has, never will. Merde still happens. There are so many criminals out there doing bad deeds that never get caught--so they have no criminal record. There are bad painters/contractors/doctors/mechanics/personal trainers/teachers/lawyers etc. Keep in mind that with regulation comes due process---which can take a very very very long time. Not giving a bad dojang your business and making sure everyone knows why you are not giving them your business can put them out of biz faster than the due process. Either that or call a 'Soprano' family member you know :-) I agree with the fear that the appointed state regulators will be made up of morons---but now is the time to take action. Get off your butts and find out how to become part of the process and/or get yourself appointed to whatever state committee for martial arts--or actively lobby against it. Make yourself heard. Speak with your local and state representatives about it. Be a leader. Regulation also may destroy a number of small and part time schools. Once in a while I make a 3 hour trip to train with a guy who is a convicted felon. He did some dumb stuff 20 years ago---upstanding family man now, and a hell of a groundfighter. He has as a small school with a solid student base which includes his 2 kids and wife. ------------------------------- I have every adult student and as many parents as I can, acting as lookouts for predators. I teach my child students to recognize the same type of dangers. My STORM team must complete my anti-predator program and the Boy Scouts of America abuse recognition course. (which I think is very good). I watch everyone like a hawk, but in the back of my mind I know that with everything that I do, I may still fail to prevent abuse of one of my students. May God help anyone I catch harming my kids. I might have to commit a felony. Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts www.TNTma.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:00:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net YEs the show was interesting and hopefully like most new things, improvements will be made on the next creation of similar shows. Now I watched a show where it stated that the japanese in wwII had a competition to see which officier could chop off the most heads before getting tired. Jye --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:24:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My response(s) below: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" wrote: >I don't agree with that any more. I think that if one has to teach a lot of students, then yes, one needs to have them do "basics" because those lend themselves to mass instruction, both in terms of maximizing "time on task" and in terms of reducing liability. But if one only has a few students, or one, the student can learn MUCH faster by jumping into the deep end. Whether they drown or not depends on the suitability of the instructor and upon their own abilities. The down side to training students this way is that they have a LOT of extra learning if they want to switch back to mass instruction. The other downside of dynamic training from the very beginning of one's career is that it is VERY daunting. If the student is not sure of himself, or if the nstructor is not encouraging enough, the student can give it up very easily. Actually, the dynamic instruction I'm talking about sounds kind of like elite military training now that I think of it. So are you saying that me never being in the military before could join and begin elite training without any basics? if not then how is it that one could do it in the martial arts? The basics of martial arts training must be taught and the student must become proficient at them if they are to become proficient in that system of martial arts. >Is there someone who can reply to this on the basis of Kinesiology? It sounds like Jye is constructing his understanding of strength training based on traditional Chinese methods, but I know that modern strength training is a science all of its own. I seem to recall at least that one can train for endurance or for speed, and not both, because of the two types of muscle tissue that one could train. Jye's horse stance seems to be training for endurance, while WTF TKDers train for explosive power. Which is better in a fight? The horse stance used in lower basin exercises (not in walking the circle) trains the individual's endurance and it builds strength in the legs. >...When you say, "Anything you can do slowly, you can do quickly," I have to disagree. Practicing slowly will often help create more efficient movement, but unless you train hard and fast, you won't be able to perform that way. To train someone to fight, one can either (1) take a few years to teach them the basics, and after they get their black belt and hopefully prove their character, teach them really how to fight or (2) make damn sure of their character and then teach them to fight quickly. And one way is not "better" than another by the way. They are just different. I disagree with this. When you train the body to be relaxed for instance and to move slowly with complete control, you can do it faster without problems. This is because of training using control and the body is used to functioning without restrictions of not being relaxed. ie., tai chi chuan.Also, to teach someone how to fight doesn't take years and they certainly don't need a blackbelt...lol. Where I come from, fighting is a natural part of life, and a person can be brought up to par rather quickly. Jye --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial arts oversight board Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Rumbinfield, A person being a felon doesn't mean they aren't suitable to teach children. I've listened to a few preachers that had several arrests. Not discussing career criminals who wouldn't bother taking the time to get a business license anyway. Truthfully, those are the kind of people that slip in under the radar and teach for a legitimate school. Of course, legitimate school owners run background checks on potential employees. Now a person being a pervert IS a reason they shouldn't be around children and there are laws already in place for that. So oversight board is not needed. Safety standards and roofing issues should be done at time of building inspection. In Florida, any business pulling a license is sent to the building department and fire marshal for inspection. So oversight board is not needed. Fresh air is also addressed in all new building codes (Federal building code) with older buildings getting grandfathered in. (For the most part) So oversight board is not needed. Services being delivered when fees are charged is up to the Better Business Bureau (easy to file a complaint and search for previous complaints). Small claims court is very easy. So oversight board is not needed. As to what I'm worried about is what I've already explained. Politics and government regulation means money, money, money. I know the game, been playin the game a long time with licensing boards. Those "for the love" guys better buckle down. Being a good martial artist doesn't make a good instructor any more than a good instructor makes a good business man. And as a good business man, we have a full time staff person that keeps our company in check about licenses. I'd venture to say about a third of their job is absorbed with this. Most of the school owners on this list (me included) have 0-2 employees. And with that, I'm going to let this thread go. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] advice Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Dodge, I'd TRY to do as the doctor says. But if I didn't, I'd tape the bad toe to the surrounding toes and threaten everyone in the class with bodily harm if they get too close to my sore toe! :) Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] just a thought Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Rubinfeld, On this, we may just agree. Typically, it's people with money that say money isn't important. If rank and certification wasn't important, why do many high ranks have it listed prominently on their website? I find that kind of amusing and a bit hypocritical. I like the folks that mumble something to the effect of, "In our school, we only have 1 first degree and they've been training with me for 45 years. By the way, I'm a 15th degree with a letter of reference from my great aunt. Here's a picture of my certificate....but rank don't matter sonny....just train, train, train." LOL! Whatever. Ranks and time grossly inflated using the freedom of dramatic license. :) Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] governing body and regulation Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Berkowitz, In essence, we agree. Yes, a person a regulatory board can be removed but it comes at a great cost and a real pain. And yes Sir, I've also had my hand in getting a judge removed from the bench. And frankly, it was a low point in my life going through the living hell of the court system. So like you, when it comes to these matters, I do have some insight. I'm also hold the professional licensed for a for profit company and I know the cost of all of this is fairly outrageous. Being lazy has nothing to do with my opposition to a regulation board. There is a better way as I listed on my email. It's called public exposure on website that is very factual, to the point, with background support. And frankly, if I did a physical exam and paid to receive KKW certification and didn't receive it, I would sue them for failure to deliver on our business transaction. (On the assumption I passed). I would hold them accountable without the use of some silly regulation board. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:50:10 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tournament coming Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Dallas, Texas on November 11th the World KIDO Federation Korean Martial Art Grand Championships will be held. Host is Master John Murphy and he can be contacted at (214) 476-5425 or (903) 583-6160 or moosulkwan@hotmail.com Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 8659 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Mr. Rubinfeld Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net David Wells wrote: "Let me also tell you, as a certified windmill jouster myself, I hear you. And I agree with MANY of your points. I just don't think a board of "peers" will do us any good. You mentioned that Doctors Boards are not filled with shams, fakes, and wannabe's. I agree. But if doctors had been unregulated for decades and many unscrupulous persons had somehow become doctors, the situation would be much different. How in heck will you select this Board? What credentials will I have to show to be considered?? None? Or a handful of fake junk printed by some nut-case pro rassler in Florida? The way it is now, the guys with the most "legit" paper are probably the ones who are abusing the system and will be first in line to be "on the board!" Cripes, look at Hackworth's site, the guy is AWESOME on paper!" >From what I gather, all of Hackworth's papers are bogus, just like the bogus certs he sold to others. Joe Cheavens --__--__-- Message: 16 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:03:39 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hackworth, hack dan certificates and hack it all with the paper Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well...tell me something. Many folks here have taken a swipe at the corpulent one in Florida and asked what can be done. Gee...you are against regulation but want that guy regulated out of martial arts. I too love volcanoes but hate lava. Phony dan certificates on the web??? You can buy them at local martial arts store in Queens, NY. You can get phony college degrees and phony just about anything. Now here is something that is really funny. Many folks here say the paper is nothing...it's "the crud that forms in your eye" its meaningless etc. How about proving that by destroying on film those certificates and sharing it here? Or...stop testing your students and return all their test fees. What? No? That's different? I'm sorry, I didn't understand. Now in Koryo, that's a double side kick or a kick block and middle side kick? Amusingly yours, Sid --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest