Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:52:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #353 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. new direction in licensing (William.Baldwin@ureach.com) 2. Paper Trail (Johnnie Rouse) 3. RE: KKW PAPER Trail (Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)) 4. (no subject) (Christian Briggs) 5. BJJ (Thomas Gordon) 6. Response to Sid (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 7. Re: (no subject) (Joseph Cheavens) 8. RE: advice (Jay O'Connor) 9. RE: Paper Trail (Rick Clark) 10. RE: advice (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 11. Re: new direction in licensing (Steven Berkowitz) 12. RE: Root and Center (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 13. Regulating martial arts (Rudy Timmerman) 14. RE: BJJ (Joseph Cheavens) 15. Re: BJJ (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:57:28 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: William.Baldwin@ureach.com, MD-S Subject: [The_Dojang] new direction in licensing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The recent thread concerning licensing/cert vs free/unregulated Martial Arts seems to be focusing on the merits of licensing and certification itself, instead of whether or not the MA are a field, yes or no, that lends itself to such a scheme. Example would be when I was talking to an Art dealer who was discussing so-called “experts on art”. He stated that a man proclaiming himself an expert on art is analogous to man proclaiming himself an expert on women. Some fields of endeavor such as science, medicine, etc are suitable to licensing, while others such as art, car and railroad modeling, or the pursuit of women are not. The debate, therefore, should be more about where MA fall on this continuum, instead of on licensing, and certification itself. --- www.coastguardauxiliaryfc61.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Johnnie Rouse" To: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:04:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Paper Trail Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick, Rick Clark ,Wrote: >A high school diploma is given by thousands of different schools each >year, from very small schools to mega size high schools, not to mention >the GED's give out. Each diploma is still a diploma that can get you >into University. The diploma from the smallest school in Indiana is >recognized by the largest University in the US, and I suspect in >Universities outside the U.S. >Why should TKD certificates from small organizations not be accepted by >larger organizations? Seems simple enough to me, most States have school boards that set standards these schools are accredited by. The university only has to look to the schools credentials from the State. Johnnie Rouse --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KKW PAPER Trail Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:42:52 -0400 From: "Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I disagree there. If you drop out of school, you stop learning in a formal setting. Getting out on the mat IS formal training. The certificate is just a report card!! As far as a MA career, you can have all the credentials in the world (it certainly wont hurt you); but what you DO and TEACH on the mat is what people are going to spend there money/time on. Brian Woodard -----Original Message----- From: Johnnie Rouse [mailto:rmetals@cmaaccess.com] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:30 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] KKW PAPER Trail >Throw all the !@#$ paper away and get out on >the mat! Stop wasting time chasing paper. This is OK by me if that is what you have in mind for yourself. Sounds like the same justification for dropping out of high school. There are people that intend to make a life career in MAs and most potential clients and students usually like to see credentials. Johnnie Rouse _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Christian Briggs" To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:01:53 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I saw that someone had put a list up of some upcoming santioned tournaments, including one in Portland Or.  It seems I deleted that email prematurely.  Could some one repost it or send a link where I can find it.  Thanks in advance. Chris Briggs --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:02:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Thomas Gordon" Subject: [The_Dojang] BJJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Last night I tried Brazilian jujitsu. Felt good to be a white belt again. Looking in as a student gave a very useful perspective. Class started off with warm up drills trying to pass the guard, then specific counter drill, and then a few four minute rounds with your partner trying to submit you. Very informal setting with it never really officially beginning per se. Everyone showed up about 8PM and started stretching, rolling, and warming up. About 8:30ish, we started the warm up drills. Instructor finally called it to a close at 10:10PM. It’s a long drive for me and I got home about 11:45PM. After all of that, I had to finish up our fliers for the upcoming tournament on October 21. Finally fell into bed at 2:30AM and got back up at 6:20AM to head to work. I won’t be needing anyone to rock me to sleep tonight. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:27:20 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Response to Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, I don't think it is a misunderstanding or purposeful obfuscation. I think the fact is that most of us do not agree that government oversight or oversight by a professional board will solve any problems. I think we all agree that we don't want any of the 4 things you listed, but I do not believe for one second that any regulatory board will solve those problems. I am sure we can all point out a long list of examples in other sectors where the type of oversight (government or professional board)you are advocating has failed and one or more of the things you are trying to prevent has happened. Yes, extra fees and paperwork might put some very worthwhile part-time studios/clubs out of business. But that is not the real crux of my disagreement. I do not believe any board can or will take care of the problems you have identified. I like my autonomy. Period. I don't see how a taekwondo McDojang master (because he is better known, has 300 students, and is a member of the chamber of commerce) overseeing my skills or the way I run my dojang can be of any benefit, either to me or to my students or potential students. But then I also believe that each person is responsible for their own defense, safety and well-being, not the government, be it local, state or federal. And those that take advantage of other people will eventually receive the consequences. Danny Dunn <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This was well publicized by one of the Japanese newspapers at the time (Mainichi?) during the Rape of Nanjing. I believe the articles were used as evidence at their war crime trials. I don't think it was who could chop off the most heads before they got tired, though, as their contest lasted for several days. Joe Cheavens Now I watched a show where it stated that the japanese in wwII had a competition to see which officier could chop off the most heads before getting tired. Jye --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 8:51:05 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] advice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ---- Thomas Gordon wrote: > Mr. Dodge, > > I'd TRY to do as the doctor says. But if I didn't, I'd tape the bad toe > to the surrounding toes and threaten everyone in the class with bodily > harm if they get too close to my sore toe! :) Problem is that in Taekwondo, you spend an awful lot of time trying to get your toe too close tom everyone in the class :) Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:59:02 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Paper Trail To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Johnnie, >From: Johnnie Rouse [mailto:rmetals@cmaaccess.com] >Rick Clark ,Wrote: >>A high school diploma is given by thousands of different schools each >>year, from very small schools to mega size high schools, not >to mention >>the GED's give out. Each diploma is still a diploma that can get you >>into University. The diploma from the smallest school in Indiana is >>recognized by the largest University in the US, and I suspect in >>Universities outside the U.S. > >>Why should TKD certificates from small organizations not be >accepted by >>larger organizations? > > Seems simple enough to me, most States have school boards >that set standards these schools are accredited by. The >university only has to look to the schools credentials from the State. > >Johnnie Rouse So then it seems the only thing we need to do is in some way set up something that allows smaller organizations to issue rank? Oh wait that would take away power, control, influence, money, etc. from the large organization and give more choices to students and instructors. If they found that working with a group of instructors was not in their best interests, or just did not get along with them on personal or professional reasons they would be able to go to another group that could issuee certificates that were accepted on an international level. Oh wait a minute the large organizations don't want to do that because they would then lose control and I'll bet they don't want to give that up. So I guess we are stuffed? Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] advice To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:18:03 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jay, LOL!!! Thanks, but that's what got me here in the first place! Victor jayoconnor@adelph ia.net To 08/22/2006 09:51 the_dojang@martialartsresource.net AM cc Subject Please respond to RE: [The_Dojang] advice the_dojang@martia lartsresource.net ---- Thomas Gordon wrote: > Mr. Dodge, > > I'd TRY to do as the doctor says. But if I didn't, I'd tape the bad toe > to the surrounding toes and threaten everyone in the class with bodily > harm if they get too close to my sore toe! :) Problem is that in Taekwondo, you spend an awful lot of time trying to get your toe too close tom everyone in the class :) Take care, Jay _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] new direction in licensing Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:36:32 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net the "answer" to your posited query might well be: "is/are martial art(s) a measurable, quantifiable, demonstrable catalog or body of knowledge, with (enough, obvious)similarities across the spectrum, that said body/cataloh could be identified from place to place, person to person, system to system regardless of peoples' UNfamiliarity with the names or titles of techniques being evaluated"? The answer would appear to be YES- front kick is a front kick, whether a chagi or a geri; and self defense techniques are cataloged by generic names everywhere, not by the names of the components In that way, a standardization of evaluation methodology is achievable.(I am even willing to donate the time to catalog the rank requirements for a number of schools and systems that care to send printed copy) Where it breaks down is at the ego and superego levels, balls rather than brains. blessings Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: ; "MD-S" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:57 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] new direction in licensing > The recent thread concerning licensing/cert vs free/unregulated > Martial Arts seems to be focusing on the merits of licensing and > certification itself, instead of whether or not the MA are a > field, yes or no, that lends itself to such a scheme. Example > would be when I was talking to an Art dealer who was discussing > so-called "experts on art". He stated that a man proclaiming > himself an expert on art is analogous to man proclaiming himself > an expert on women. Some fields of endeavor such as science, > medicine, etc are suitable to licensing, while others such as > art, car and railroad modeling, or the pursuit of women are not. > The debate, therefore, should be more about where MA fall on > this continuum, instead of on licensing, and certification > itself. > --- > > www.coastguardauxiliaryfc61.org > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:04:08 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Root and Center Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: >So are you saying that me never being in the military before could join and begin elite training without any basics? if not then how is it that one could do it in the martial arts? My response: I meant that the dynamic and one-on-one nature of training seemed similar to elite military training in unarmed combat. Of course, I wasn't in the military so I may be wrong. If you believe that military personnel learn the basics in basic training, then I do think you are mistaken. Most of the people I have met who train at a high level in the military had martial arts experience going in, and those that didn't acquired it through their own interest, not through their official training (and often in direct conflict with their official duties -- it is my understanding that the military doesn't like it when you get hurt doing martial arts and can't do your job). I think I mentioned that most of my students are already black belts in other arts, right? But I have trained people from the beginning and how I do it now is very different from how I trained them in the TKD and HKD clubs. A critical mind, the willingness to learn, and the drive to train is all that is necessary. I didn't get much of a response from anyone regarding the scientific basis of muscular training. Doing a search on Google, I find a bunch of stuff about different types of fibers (I, IIa, IIb), in addition of course to the muscles classed as cardiac, smooth and skeletal. On the site http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/muscle.htm I found: "Fibre type modification Various types of exercises can bring about changes in the fibres in a skeletal muscle. Endurance type exercises, such as running or swimming, cause a gradual transformation of type II B fibres into type II A fibres. The transformed muscle fibres show a slight increase in diameter, mitochondria, blood capillaries, and strength. Endurance exercises result in cardiovascular and respiratory changes that cause skeletal muscles to receive better supplies of oxygen and carbohydrates but do not contribute to muscle mass. On the other hand, exercises that require great strength for short periods of time, such as weight lifting, produce an increase in the size and strength of type II B fibres. The increase in size is due to increased synthesis of thin and thick myofilaments. The overall result is that the person develops large muscles. You can develop your fast-twitch muscle fibre by conducting plyometric or complex training (combination of plyometrics and weights) to build the fast muscle (IIa) and performing sprinting types of training to build the super-fast (IIb) to the point where you can release exercise-induced growth hormone." I haven't seen a study yet on which muscle fiber types are trained by stance work. Jye wrote: >When you train the body to be relaxed for instance and to move slowly with complete control, you can do it faster without problems. This is because of training using control and the body is used to functioning without restrictions of not being relaxed. ie., tai chi chuan.Also, to teach someone how to fight doesn't take years and they certainly don't need a blackbelt...lol. Where I come from, fighting is a natural part of life, and a person can be brought up to par rather quickly. My response: So you agree with me about the fighting part. I agree that slow training and concentrating on relaxation helps improve technique at faster speeds, but disagree that it improves it best. I don't think anyone needs a black belt. Why do you think they need lower basin training? Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:18:41 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Regulating martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark writes: > About a year ago here there was an incident at a spendy national > chain-local > fitness/health club,(heavily regulated industry) that had in place; > criminal > background checks on employees, training of employees to recognize > abuse, > multiple people in room, camera's recording everything...... > > ***A child care worker at the club sexually abused several kids*** > > Criminal background check didn't work. > Kids still got molested. > Many people quit the club after the incident---and had a hell of a > time > getting any $$ back and the club refused to let the victim out of > contract. > In 1 year I responded to no less than 7 physical brawls at the > location, > several muggings in the parking lot, lots of car break-ins and 1 rape. > While responding there I noted several customers were themselves > convicted > criminals---we cant ban customers can we??? Hello Mark: As you observed, someone slipped under the wire at a place that had stringent, albeit self-regulated, checks etc. in place. In our area, we have had two incidents involving abuse of kids, and another where a school owner took advantage of women by viewing them in their change areas. We have NO regulatory board, NONE of these offenders would have been caught because they had no prior record (and their martial art resumes were good), and the court system we already have in place took care of the situations. My point is that a martial art regulatory board would not have prevented these problems, and our present system of taking care of such problems DID take care of the situation AFTER it happened. I think HAD such a board been in place the board would NOT have been able to prevent it, and the same system would have had to take care of it AFTER the problem. IMHO, we can only do our best to expose these predators by contacting police and children's aid, and let them take care of it. We continue to teach good awareness programs, and we hammer our messages home at every opportunity. IF the system fails, we can go to the next step and expose the predator by other means as long as we adhere to the law ourselves. By pointing fingers without solid evidence, we could harm other kids (the ones whose father we just convicted in the press without due process). IMHO, education is our best bet. I have never seen anyone get rid of their woodburner to prevent kids from getting burned... we TEACH them the thing is hot, and the kids learn not to go there again. By protecting our kids with boards and laws that often do nothing to prevent bad situations from happening (see above three cases), we increase the problem by instilling a false sense of security in kids and/or parents. Just like boy scouts and some religious institutions did, we must understand that our industry will attract predators, because we have the prey they look for. ALL of us must be on the highest alert at all times to avoid problems in our schools. As you mentioned, while attending situations at the institution you spoke of, several MEMBERS were felons. A board checking on "Instructors" would not have found these members, so kids would still have been exposed (thinking all the while they were safe behind a board that was toothless). We just have to recognize that nothing is foolproof, and we Instructors have to educate to our best ability the kids people entrust to us. To this end, I would much rather see this thread talk about programs such as the ones you mention. If we collectively share good programs between school owners and parents, it will make everyone's job easier and our kids and their parents will be better off. We recently had a repeat offender (who had gone through the system many times) grab two kids. He was apprehended and the kids are alive, no thanks to the judges who let that sucker go again and again (even after the man said he would do it again???). We HAVE good laws; however, we also have judges who are way to lenient (because they are swayed by some loud mouthed bleeding hearts who would rather save a poor predator because he may have had a bad childhood). Let's spend our time taking care of THAT problem, so our good cops will not waste their time chasing these predators down just to have some bleeding heart judge let them go. Here was a prime candidate for castration (or whatever it takes to take care of his illness), but our society is too "sophisticated" for such brutality (at the expense of innocent kids). Rudy --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] BJJ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the report. I've been thinking of starting up with BJJ for variety's sake and to better round out my tool box. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Gordon" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] BJJ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:02:49 -0500 (CDT) Last night I tried Brazilian jujitsu. Felt good to be a white belt again. Looking in as a student gave a very useful perspective. Class started off with warm up drills trying to pass the guard, then specific counter drill, and then a few four minute rounds with your partner trying to submit you. Very informal setting with it never really officially beginning per se. Everyone showed up about 8PM and started stretching, rolling, and warming up. About 8:30ish, we started the warm up drills. Instructor finally called it to a close at 10:10PM. It’s a long drive for me and I got home about 11:45PM. After all of that, I had to finish up our fliers for the upcoming tournament on October 21. Finally fell into bed at 2:30AM and got back up at 6:20AM to head to work. I won’t be needing anyone to rock me to sleep tonight. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] BJJ To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Last night I tried Brazilian jujitsu. Felt good to be a white belt again. One of my former instructors made this point, suggested it as part of the development of a Dan. Point being that it is fairly easy to forget just how difficult eveything seemed when we started. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest