Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 06:32:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #355 - 20 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: BJJ (michael tomlinson) 2. RE: paper trail (michael tomlinson) 3. Re: Re: It won't work (Jay O'Connor) 4. RE: paper trail (Thomas Gordon) 5. RE: BJJ (Thomas Gordon) 6. Re: Re: It won't work (Steven Berkowitz) 7. RE: Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question (Rick Clark) 8. My new rant (sidtkd@aol.com) 9. Flight Attendants Must have Martial Arts Skills (Thomas Gordon) 10. jump kicks (Mike Donahoo) 11. chambering in forms (Luther Veuleman) 12. Certification (Charles Richards) 13. RE: kicking (Joseph Cheavens) 14. Re: advice (Joseph Cheavens) 15. Jump Kicks (Gordon) 16. BSA Youth Protection (Gordon) 17. Re: Broken toes (Craig Zeigler) 18. Re: Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question (Joseph Cheavens) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] BJJ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:49:07 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very true,,,I feel like a white belt again every time I get on the mat with Doju Nim Ji Han Jae... Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] BJJ >Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) > > > Last night I tried Brazilian jujitsu. Felt good to be a white belt >again. > >One of my former instructors made this point, suggested it as part of the >development of a Dan. Point being that it is fairly easy to forget just >how >difficult eveything seemed when we started. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] paper trail Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:56:08 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gordon,,, I guess deviant minds think a like...I caught that play on the word Hack also and it started me thinking Hack....worth....funny stuff...I just didn't reply at first thinking maybe I was just crazy....hey crazy loves company!!!! Michael Tomlinson >From: "Gordon" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] paper trail >Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:27:26 -0500 > >Hey! Did you guys intentionally use the word "hack" or was it a derivative >of Hackworth? A taxi driver is also called a "hack". The parallels are >cracking me up! "Taking you for a ride." "Taking you the wrong way to get >more money." > >Anyway, my question: what does your acronym "STORM" in "Storm Team" stand >for? > >Gordon Okerstrom >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:13:29 -0600 From: Jay O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: It won't work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ---- Steven Berkowitz wrote: > FEMA? IRS? Social Security? FCC? FHA? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:38 PM > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: It won't work > > > > The fear is npt that a Board won't work...the fear is that it WILL work > and > > be bad for business! Name one Board that fails its mission? I think the source of some cynicism is simply that the genie is already out of the bottle, soto speak(probably wrong analogy..maybe 'cats out of the bag' ?). OK, who is going to be on the board. Or rather who determines who would be on the board? If the problem is one that there are a lot of flakes out there, how do you keep the flakes from guarding the henhouse? If those establishing the board are not MA's (such as lawyers, etc..), then how do they judge who to put on the board? If the people estbalishing the board are MA's, who gives them legitmacy? Maybe 50 years ago it would've been possible to establosh some sort of controlling oversite board for MA inthe US or something, but there may be enough quacks out there now that it's too late. Especially when the quacks band together and set up their own Soke Councils and Lord knows what else to give themselves legitimacy; how does the new student know the truth? Not that a board cna't work in theory but that establishing a board with both real and perceived legitimacy may not be possible. What may be possible is some sort of MA informational clearinghouse to allow for voluntary oversight and lodging complaints and warnings and such. I dunno Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] paper trail Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Hey! Did you guys intentionally use the word 'hack' or was it a derivative of Hackworth?" I'm sure it was just a (Freudian) slip.... Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] BJJ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:03:49 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry wrote, "One of my former instructors made this point, suggested it as part of the development of a Dan. Point being that it is fairly easy to forget just how difficult eveything seemed when we started." Okay...so just when did things STOP being difficult?! :) It was good to be a student again. It'll help me in tonight's classes. Mr. Stoval wrote, "....So, what did you think? Are you going to stick with it?" I will as I can. I'd like to go but can't lose focus on what I've already started. And frankly, there comes a point of overload both material wise and time away from family. Mr. Donahoo wrote, "...i have to travel a little over an hour each way for a two and a half hour class after my regular day is over. nothing helps me sleep like pure exhaustion...break falls, ground work, and being dropped on my head/back/side for a couple hours doesn't hurt either." Yeah, getting out of the car last night was fun. Wasn't sure if I should roll out, fall out, or pray for no hamstring cramps as I stepped out. First thing I did was hit the jacuzzi and soak for 30 minutes. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: It won't work Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:28:42 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is always the governance of those who desire to bewillingly governed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay O'Connor" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: It won't work > ---- Steven Berkowitz wrote: > > FEMA? IRS? Social Security? FCC? FHA? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:38 PM > > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: It won't work > > > > > > > The fear is npt that a Board won't work...the fear is that it WILL work > > and > > > be bad for business! Name one Board that fails its mission? > > > I think the source of some cynicism is simply that the genie is already out of > the bottle, soto speak(probably wrong analogy..maybe 'cats out of the bag' ?). > OK, who is going to be on the board. Or rather who determines who would be on > the board? If the problem is one that there are a lot of flakes out there, > how do you keep the flakes from guarding the henhouse? If those establishing > the board are not MA's (such as lawyers, etc..), then how do they judge who to > put on the board? If the people estbalishing the board are MA's, who gives > them legitmacy? Maybe 50 years ago it would've been possible to establosh > some sort of controlling oversite board for MA inthe US or something, but > there may be enough quacks out there now that it's too late. Especially when > the quacks band together and set up their own Soke Councils and Lord knows > what else to give themselves legitimacy; how does the new student know the > truth? Not that a board cna't work in theory but that establishing a board > with both real and perceived legitimacy may not be possible. > > What may be possible is some sort of MA informational clearinghouse to allow > for voluntary oversight and lodging complaints and warnings and such. I > dunno > > Take care, > Jay > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:19:44 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Tom, >Before each Hapkido class I do my old TKD Taeguek poomse as a >warm up. >I am beginning to question whether this poomse practice is helping or >hindering my progress in Hapkido. Let me ask a question and then if you would think about it for a bit and respond. Forms are said to teach you self defense techniques of a system. By repeating movements over and over again you build up muscle memory for doing specific actions. The purpose of martial arts training is to build in new more effective responses to previous behavior you may have exhibited in self defense situations. People revert to previously learned behavior in moments of stress. So - pulling your hand back to your waist "should" have some practical reason. Would your agree with these statements? So - now the problem is to see if you can figure out a reason why you would pull your hand back to your waist when you do a technique. Next time you practice some of your Hapkido movements watch close and see if there are any techniques that you practice that have you pulling your hand back to your waist while you do something else with the other hand. >During the poomse practice I realized that the chamber >position for the hand is at the waist (i.e., elbow striking an opponent behind >you). Let me ask you - could there possibly be an alternative explanation? Could there be more than one explanation? >Of course this would be a lousy position to have your hand when >you really need it for self defense. Also, while looking at a Master McHenry's >poomse video, I noticed that he chambered his hand much higher, like >that I have seen Karate people do. If your hand is in different positions could it be that the hand is doing something different in various situations? > >So, why do poomse and kata teach this chambering position when in fact >your hands should be out in front of you where you can use them more >quickly. Could it be that the hand back at your waist is not a position where you are waiting for a person to attack but you 'might' be executing a technique that requires that the hand is back at the waist? > >Tom Kennelly Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:13:24 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] My new rant Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hackworth notwithstanding...whenever I see someone with multiple high black belts I know that two things are true. 1) There has been enormous cross ranking 2) There is enormous bullcrap. No one can be an 8th dan in ten arts!!! Some bell should go off.One more thing...it's impossible to have all that credential in martial arts and STILL be a fat slob! Sid --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:29:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Flight Attendants Must have Martial Arts Skills Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=56468&rubrik1=Recreation&rubrik2=T ravel&rubrik3=Flights&sort=1&sparte=4 Flight Attendants Must have Martial Arts Skills Chinese airline Sichuan Airlines has announced that any flight attendants, specifically young women, hired by the company must be competent in martial arts. The airline is set to hire on some 70 new flight attendants this week. Part of the recruitment process will include having to have knowledge in the art of kung fu. Airline honchos believe that having flight attendants on board who are able to use martial arts will increase aviation safety. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:52:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Donahoo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] jump kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Okerstrom, we start teaching jump kicks like jump front snap kick and jump roundhouse off both the back leg and front leg at yellow belt, just around four months of training. we introduce one jump spinning kick at green belt or eight to ten months of training. this is the tornado roundhouse or nadabong.(sp?) at blue (a year and 2 months at least) through black we introduce the remanding 10-15 jump spinning kicks. i agree that green is a little early to start lots of jumping and spinning. we don't look for lots of 'perfection', just that the basics of balance, rotation, targeting, and distance are being introduced into our kicks executed in the air. by the time a student is ready to test for there red belt, around 2 years and some change, we start looking at the finer technical points of the jump spinning kicks. they have at least 6 months before they are even eligible to test for there black or poom belt. most end up at 8-9 months before testing, they have gotten the kicks down. if you don't mind me asking how do you - and everyone else for that matter - teach jumping kicks? In devotion to the Art, Mike Donahoo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:00:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Luther Veuleman To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] chambering in forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tom, When you fight, yes, keep your hands in front of you. But with forms practice, you've gotta think out of the box a bit. We practice a traditional look, but this is just a means to an end, which is where application comes into play. Instead of thinking 'rechamber your fist at your hip', think instead "pull bad guy closer by wrist" for starters, or even 'elbow the guy behind me" works also. Pick a student you like alot, and try some things out. Heres one for you: Basic form 3 in Tang Soo Do, some TKD, will start with a back stance and outside/midlevel block, then step forward into front stance with midlevel punch. Make your outside middle block on your partners punch. Your palm will be facing your at the moment of the block, but then quickly rotate over and secure the wrist. As you step forward, try to continue the normal downward motion of your 'rechambering' hand, still keeping contact with his wrist, to your hip/belt/lower ribs, as your step forward and punch. Note the differences in his elbow location when your partner uses either hand. Note which areas that hurt him are exposed. Note the possible uses of your stance for inflicting pain. There are lots LOTS more fun stuff. But, you gotta play around with another human for it all to make sense sometimes. Have Fun!! Charlie Veuleman --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 05:10:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i read "But then I also believe that each person is responsible for their own defense, safety and well-being, not the government, be it local, state or federal. And those that take advantage of other people will eventually receive the consequences." mc reply Master Dunn I miss you. Well said. FYI to all this certification thread has a weeks worth of reading in Ray's archive. Danny, I am back in the private sector, but built a career as a public sector servant. Here is my ten cents (my two cents is free). The government will SNAFU any for profit enterprise or standardization/regulation (on behalf of consumers). We as consumers have an obligation to research our purchases or accept the fact that we enjoyed the emotional decision of choosing to expend money (my mother in law calls that retail therapy). stay well, mc --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] kicking Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:22:43 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't think I learned jump spin kick until chodan.  I've trained/taught at a few dojang that start teaching jumping spin kick at 1st or 2nd gup, but I don't think I've seen it taught any earlier than that. At green belt (6th gup) I was just starting to learn standing spin kick, and that has been about the norm at most dojang that I've trained/taught at. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gordon" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: [The_Dojang] kicking Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:34:13 -0500 I just had a discussion with another instructor where he told me that he teaches jump spin heel at green belt. This seems too high a technique for a green belt to me. They are just getting their feet under them. I don't think they have the aerial balance and landing nuances to accomplish it safely. When do you teach jump spin heel? Gordon Okerstrom _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] advice Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:27:53 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do you wear TKD shoes to train in? I think that some kind of MA shoe would help provide extra support for your toe after you tape it and would alleviate strain on it when you pivot on the ball of your foot. With the proper precautions (taping, shoes), I would think that you could practice basic techniques and forms - just no sparring, bag work, hogu drills or target drills. I broke the same base joint on my big toe about 2 months prior to my chodan test (caught an elbow with a doryo ch'agi), so I just had to train through the pain. It continued to bother me for about five or six years afterwards. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] advice Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:57:26 -0500 Mr. Metzner, DMKC, Mr. Berkowitz, Mr. Gordon, Mr. OConner, Mr. McCauley, Thank you all for the advice. I appreciate it. The pool idea is great. I wish I had one. Looks like I'll be taking the kids to the local pool! I'm sure they thank you, as well!!! The broken toe is next to the big toe on my left foot. I broke it right at the base knuckle (I don't know the medical terminology for that). Doc said it was most likely caused by direct blow to the end of the toe. I tape it to the small toe next to it, but not the big toe, as it moves more independently. It isn't painful, unless I try to pivot on the ball of my foot, but the swelling is more bothersome. After sitting in a chair for an extended amount of time, my leg will swell from the knee to the toe. Elevation and walking every half hour seems to work the best. Victor _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:38:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jump Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Donahoo, We do it almost exactly as you state. It was eery reading your post. At green belt we put the twimyu (jump) in the dwit chagi (back kick). Other than that, we're in unison. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:43:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] BSA Youth Protection Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I found this on the web. It's not the full blown instruction manual but all the key points are there. See the section starting with "Barriers to Abuse Within Scouting". http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss01.html Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:40:24 -0400 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Broken toes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Curt McCauley wrote: > Use adhesive tape to "trap" the broken toe to the toes that are on either side > of it to create a "splint". Then train tenderly. I think I have more toes > that have been broken than not. I stopped going to the meds for stuff like > this because they always tend to say, " Oh you can't train like this" or "you > should stop training in the Martial arts". > > Over the years I have had students who have broken legs, had knee surgery etc > etc. When they say they have to stop, I put them in a wheel chair (used to > be a secretary's chair) and they learn the art and what they can do sitting > down. I have had several people do gup testing completely from a chair, > including Hyung and Sparring. > > > Curt McCauley > Chief Instructor > Channel Town Soo Bahk Do > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > I've been in your student's position several times (several surgeries) and although my training has changed drastically, it hasn't stopped. There are some things I simply don't do. Sometimes this is out of concern for my own safety, but mostly out of concern for the safety of others. There have been several times when during training, someone wasn't paying attention, and collided with my knee brace.. Generally it hurts a great deal, but it tends to hurt the other person a great deal more... consider that they're kicking metal... Anyway, experience is a great thing, and to stop training due to an injury is the mark of someone who isn't really committed anyway. At least IMO. That doesn't mean if you're badly injured, you shouldn't take time off when it makes sense to do so... Hope this helps. --__--__-- Message: 18 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:08:51 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my original Ji Do Kwan dojang, we were taught to chamber our reserve hand high (floating ribs). The purpose of chambering the punch is to derive more power (push-pull motion). In poomse, you hold the punch position after executing the punch and then move to the next position without returning to a fighting/ready stance. In a real life situation, you are either going to be flowing from one position to the next fast enough that your hand will only be chambered low for a fraction of a second, or flowing back into your fighting stance (hands up) fast enough that your hand will only be chambered for a fraction of a second. All that said, when I do bag work or spar I use a boxing/shorinji kempo style punch where I chamber the back hand high up by my face. Joe Cheavens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:04 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question > Before each Hapkido class I do my old TKD Taeguek poomse as a warm up. > I am beginning to question whether this poomse practice is helping or > hindering my progress in Hapkido. In Hapkido we are taught to have our > hands up and available in those situations were caution is warranted > (i.e., was it orange and black?) > > During the poomse practice I realized that the chamber position for the > hand is at the waist (i.e., elbow striking an opponent behind you). Of > course this would be a lousy position to have your hand when you really > need it for self defense. Also, while looking at a Master McHenry's > poomse video, I noticed that he chambered his hand much higher, like > that I have seen Karate people do. > > So, why do poomse and kata teach this chambering position when in fact > your hands should be out in front of you where you can use them more > quickly. > > Tom Kennelly > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest