Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:00:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #357 - 19 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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[RE]RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a sel (A) 2. Re: Martial arts board Governor selected (sidtkd@aol.com) 3. September in Jackson (kat_kelly@sbcglobal.net) 4. Chambered Fist (Charles Richards) 5. RE: Taeguek and Palgwe forms (Joseph Cheavens) 6. RE: Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question (Joseph Cheavens) 7. Re: Re: Who sits on the martial arts board? (Jeremy Anderson) 8. Re: Youth Protection (Jeremy Anderson) 9. Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - (John Nowicki) 10. RE: Chamber position of your hands during Poomse (Lasich, Mark D.) 11. Re: Re: Martial arts board Governor selected (Ray) 12. Hapkido in Pyongyang (Ray) 13. Hapkido in Pyongyang (Gordon) 14. temporary black belt (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 15. Re: Hapkido in Pyongyang (Ray) 16. RE: temporary black belt (David P. Zapencki) 17. Temporary Black Belt (Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "A" Organization: Lycos. Inc. To: Subject: [RE]RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a sel Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Having some problems getting replies to come through, let me know if this works. Written when the thread originally started, so forgive if I am behind a bit, please. Keep in mind I am not familiar with poomse as I write this, but I'll approach using a pulling hand in general. Also keep in mind I'm coming from a dojang that teaches both positions (hands guarding and hand to hip). Using a pulling hand does several things depending on body position. 1. Coils your hips. The majority of power from a strike will come from the whip like motion of your hips coiling and uncoiling, when you practice pulling your free hand to your hip your body naturally coils and extends the striking hand with the whipping motion, alternatively preparing your body for a second follow up strike. Essentially, you are causing a 'push pull' effect that causes your body to chamber. Not necessarily defensive, but intended for counter strikes and 'the right time'. Like everything else, you choose when you use it. 2. Occasionally we get fixed on the thought that every movement has to be one thing and one thing only. If you grab your opponent by a convenient bit of clothing or other loose bit (use your imagination) and pull with that free hand, imagine the effect of him being pulled to your hip and through your striking hand. Grab and PULL. Again, that spiraling motion of your hips that sucks your opponent into you. 3. Throws. Take scenario number two and drop to a knee, take a leg sweep or conveniently pull down on your opponent's hair or shirt while spiraling down and in. It makes for a headfirst throw that gives very little room to land as you encourage your opponent to the earth. Many, many nasty things you can do with that 'push pull' motion. For defensive purposes, hands up is a beautiful thing if you don't mind your opponent knowing that you are ready to defend yourself and that you know a little bit of something. You may also want to take into consideration the mental state of your opponent as well. If you put your hands up, how much more likely is he to attack you? Is it going to make a difference? Maybe it will keep them away. Different for every situation. Hand to hip is a really good way to train (especially, but not exclusively, for those new to the art) and has some fantastic applications mid fight. Its knowing when to let that hand go to your hip that is the tricky part, not whether or not it should ever be there. ~Anj Again, please let me know if this goes through. Darn technology. ---------[ Received Mail Content ]---------- >Subject : RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question >Date : Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:39:20 -0400 >From : "Rick Clark" >To : > >Hi Joseph, > >>From: Joseph Cheavens [mailto:jcheavens@hotmail.com] >> >> >>In my original Ji Do Kwan dojang, we were taught to chamber >>our reserve hand high (floating ribs). The purpose of >>chambering the punch is to derive more power (push-pull >>motion). > >I was told this as well, but really do you think this holds water? If >it did give you more power professional boxers would be making use of >this technique. Having your hand in a chamber position is used in >virtually all of the percussive martial arts, and has been for a LONG >time. Could there be another reason why we would make use of the >chamber position? > >One thing that I would suggest is that we don't think in terms of a >technique having a 'start' and 'end' position like we might see in still >photographs. Think in terms of using the full range of the technique >and all of the points in-between. > > > >Rick Clark >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > ~Sidona~ @--}-- --__--__-- Message: 2 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 07:24:26 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial arts board Governor selected Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Consider this: professional boards are not elected. That would require fund raising and REAL politization. They are selected by the Governor. To say they are corrupt is at best naive and probably cynical ignorance. Such a bias creates an environment of distrust and laissez-faire. What we have now allows Hackworth to run wild with absolutely no fear of the law. How anyone with more than 5 years in martial arts thinks that the mess we have now is better than regulation...baffles me. I know many people than have been ripped off terribly and quit martial arts and are telling others that by its nature the arts are corrupt. Professional boards are staffed overwhelmingly by good and decent people to regulate other people. Imagine if there were no AMA...think of all the deadly drugs that would be introduced. Let's put our narrow financial concerns to a side, stop worrying about an imaginery martial arts gestapo and be honest enough to say we are in deep do-do. Let's get the mail order martial artists, the Hackworth's and all the telephone tough guys the hell out of OUR martial arts. Debating whether a board will work is meaningless. It will happen probably soon in many states. But if it doesn't...keep this in mind... Hackworth doesn't work alone. He has disciples all over America. The guy I dealt with had a kukkiwon flag in his dojang, a kukkiwon certificate (I now know is make-believe) and phony certificates for his students. He is one of Hackworth's students. How do any of you propose that we rid ourselves of this crap other than an agency with teeth?? Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 From: To: Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 07:08:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] September in Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The International Hapkido and Korean Martial Arts Seminar is just around the corner, don't miss out!!! I cannot wait to see all my friends and visit the Clarion floor :) Kat --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 05:55:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chambered Fist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charlie gives you a direct example and some good advise. Try it on a live partner and explore the possible applications. Master Clark gives you a more Taoist lesson to make you think. And Master McHenry has often reminded me that I tend to make my Funakoshi based Hyungs look more like Japanese/Oki Karate than TangSooDo Koreanized :-) My ten cents (my two cents is free). Chamber on the belt and a higher stance implies I have locked your skeleton and the next move or what I'm doing with my lead hand is fun for me. Chambered on the rib and a deep stance IMHO is 2nd evolution Funakoshi/Itosu block-counter theory and the high chambered fist is my Cocked and Locked weapon (my next move will be fun for me). Sombody else said it well, in my JKD Theory approach my hands are always "in the window" like a boxer and hand strikes come from and return to that position, and the trailing hand stays home. In my WTF theory sparring, there is only make you miss or counter. I personally do not block. I tell my athletes you got hit because you didn't move your feet in time. If I move late, I just take it on the hogu and move on. I try not to stick my extended forearm in front of swinging baseball bats or nadoban chagi. Train with jung do in your heart The rest is commentary, mc --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Taeguek and Palgwe forms Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Both Palgwe and Taeguk have a lot of the same combinations in them. What I see as the main difference is that the Taeguk emphasizes the higher walking stance over the lower and more rooted front stance that is so prevelant in the Palgwe series. I think this is reflective of the shift in emphasis to Oly style sparring, which tends to promote a higher and less rooted stance. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: instructor@realtaekwondo.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Taeguek and Palgwe forms Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:38:44 -0700 I asked the same question about the difference between the two styles of forms to GrandMaster Dr. Richard Chun (9th dan, WTF Technical advisor). He explained to me that Palgwe forms are more combat effective. He said that the Taeguek forms were made simpler and used to get the whole TKD world doing one set of forms. He called them basic forms. Master Eddie Urbistondo _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:04:56 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Boxers do chamber their punches and use a push/pull motion, they just chamber the back hand higher up by their shoulder/in front of their face. As a result, boxers' punches "start" from the shoulder. I think the idea behind starting the Karate style punch from the hip has a lot to do with the emphasis on using the hips as the driving force behind the punch in Karate and its KMA derivitives. This isn't to say that boxers don't use their hips to gain power in their punches, since they do, its just a difference in emphasis on how to get there. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rick Clark" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - really a self defense question Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:39:20 -0400 Hi Joseph, >From: Joseph Cheavens [mailto:jcheavens@hotmail.com] > > >In my original Ji Do Kwan dojang, we were taught to chamber >our reserve hand high (floating ribs). The purpose of >chambering the punch is to derive more power (push-pull >motion). I was told this as well, but really do you think this holds water? If it did give you more power professional boxers would be making use of this technique. Having your hand in a chamber position is used in virtually all of the percussive martial arts, and has been for a LONG time. Could there be another reason why we would make use of the chamber position? One thing that I would suggest is that we don't think in terms of a technique having a 'start' and 'end' position like we might see in still photographs. Think in terms of using the full range of the technique and all of the points in-between. Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:26:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Who sits on the martial arts board? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, I think we all understand your position on regulation and oversight boards by this point. A challenge has been issued: How would you go about setting up such a board? What is your plan of action? Give us something to work with. Propose a model/plan that addresses the legitimate concerns of others on the list. Just saying, "We need regulation!" over and over again is not going to bring it into existence. Jeremy Anderson. --- sidtkd@aol.com wrote: > Who sits on the medical boards? psychology boards etc? People from the > > professions that do not have criminal records and have sterling > community > service. They are selected by the Governor of the state. Problem with > that? Then > don't complain about Hachworth. He is the consequence of no regulation > as other > the other thieves and abusers that ruin the martial arts we love. > > Sid > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:27:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Youth Protection To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark, Does spiritual = religious growth, or are you separating the two? Jeremy Anderson. --- "Lasich, Mark D." wrote: > I know the BSA youth protection training is very good. Not only does it > help with the usual CYA activities (don't be alone with the kids, > careful about touching, etc.), but it also gives you some good > techniques to help spot abuse that may come from other areas. > > This abuse can be sexual, physical and/or emotional abuse. What a > wonderful position to be in: you've done all you can to minimize > situations so that nobody accuses you of any type of abuse, but you are > also watching out for signs that something could be happening elsewhere! > > I recall from my TSD MDK days discussions on physical, emotional and > spiritual health - too bad there is so little emphasis on all three now > a days. Spiritual health, especially, never seems to get much air time! > > So, in that light, a new question: What, if any, activities do folks do > to help their students promote growth in ALL three areas? I am sure we > all know the physical, emotional could be tied to the "tenants" of the > various styles, Spiritual????? Curious. > > In the spirit, > Mark > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "John Nowicki" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:26:56 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse - Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been taught there are multiple reasons the hand is chambered during poomse and while practicing hand techniques in horse stance.  One is to develop coordination and awareness to the point of being able to have multiple limbs doing different things at the same time.  This leads into the ability to block/strike simultaniously, grab and control an opponent while striking, strike more than one attacker simultaniously, realize your non attacking hand sholud be somewhere other than just hanging on your side, etc...  I have never been taught to bring that hand to my hip during a fight, I would return it to my jaw area.  This leads me to the importance I place on practicing all aspects of the taekwondo I have been taught and not overemphasing just one of them.  Another is to develop the ability to deliver a very powerful elbow strike to an attacker that is behind you.  Performing the motion of bringing your elbow back with impact will give you a very effective elbow strike.  The same muscle group that pulls the elbow back into an attackers gut/groin/floating ribs casn also pull that elbow back to an attackers jaw/neck/temple.  This strike is practiced to a great extent in my hoshinsul practice. The most important thing I have learned is that there is not 1 final reason we practice anything.  There are always multiple reasons for doing everything and there is always the possibilty of discovering a new reason for doing something.  The most important aspect is the ability to remain open minded and be ready to adapt.   Thank you for reading my post, John M. Nowicki         --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Chamber position of your hands during Poomse Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:49:31 -0400 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang \(Dojang\)" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Rick Clark wrote in response to Joseph Cheaven regarding "push-pull" of chambering action: >I was told this as well, but really do you think this holds water? If >it did give you more power professional boxers would be making use of >this technique. Having your hand in a chamber position is used in >virtually all of the percussive martial arts, and has been for a LONG >time. Could there be another reason why we would make use of the >chamber position? [snip] If physics teaches us for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, I can see the pulling back (rechambering) of the non-puching/blocking hand/arm. Even when we look at putting our hip into a punch, the other hip naturally goes in the opposite direction. So, until one can generate power through hip action alone (boxers?), I think the use of the opposite arm to pull back is appropriate. Also, I don't think doing this naturally predisposes people to do it always. I've looked at forms at the "text-book" way of doing techniques. Pull the arm back, great. Sparring is a practical application, and more free flowing than forms. So of course you'll want to keep the other hand up to block-counter-etc. Similarly, I expect to use excellent stances in my forms. Sparring? Whatever it takes. Perhaps that's just my point of view. In the spirit, Mark --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial arts board Governor selected To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ...baffles me. Yes, that is rather obvious. Perhaps it is time to move on. I'm sure you will bring it up again. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido in Pyongyang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net International Martial Arts Games opens in Pyongyang The 2nd International Martial Arts Games opened in Pyongyang Taekwon-Do Hall on Wednesday, the official news agency reported. At least 400 players from more than 40 countries participate in the games from Aug. 23 to 29, according to the Korean Central News Agency(KCNA). The games includes Taekwondo, Korean wrestling, and kickboxing, Chinese Wushu and karate etc. Sambo, Hapkido, dragon dance and other events will be shown as demonstration performances, said the KCNA. The first International Martial Arts Games was held in Pyongyang in September 2004. Source: Xinhua --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:25:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido in Pyongyang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray posted: What is Korean wrestling? Hapkido? Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 14 Subject: [The_Dojang] temporary black belt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Could someone explain the purpose of "temporary" black belt? Why not just another gup (color belt) instead? I am studying Chang Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do and once I test for and pass the black belt testing, I would be awarded a temporary (plain) black belt. I have to retest to get permanent 1st dan. Is this typical? --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido in Pyongyang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray posted: Chinese Wushu and karate etc. Sambo, Hapkido, dragon dance and other events > will be shown as demonstration performances, said the KCNA.> > > What is Korean wrestling? Hapkido? I assume it is Ssireum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ssireum Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "David P. Zapencki" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] temporary black belt Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, it is typical in my experience. It is a time to see how you act as a new blackbelt. Do you continue to strive? Help other Students? Or do you let it go to your head and become arrogant? Think of it as a probationary period... Dave -----Original Message----- From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com [mailto:Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:03 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] temporary black belt Could someone explain the purpose of "temporary" black belt? Why not just another gup (color belt) instead? I am studying Chang Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do and once I test for and pass the black belt testing, I would be awarded a temporary (plain) black belt. I have to retest to get permanent 1st dan. Is this typical? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:57:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Temporary Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In our school, for all general purposes, it is another gup rank, but it is called, in our school, 1-R or first degree recommended. You are treated as a 1st Dan black belt in everything accept; certification and a completed (embroidered) belt. It is a probationary period where your behavior is closely monitored by your peers and you are told this. Your attitude, manors, enthusiasm, interaction with others, the way you address others, your level of respect to seniors and juniors is recorded by your seniors and is reported to the Sah Bum Nim directly over you. In other words, did you get a big head and start to lord it over your juniors or, are you a better person for your accomplishment. At the end of the designated period, you are or, are not awarded your certificate and embroidered belt at the semi-annual banquet. I would like to point out that we have never before, in my memory, not awarded the certificate and belt. My point being, we know you by yellow belt. You are either a sheepdog, sheep or a wolf. Hopefully by the time you reach black belt, we've coaxed the sheepdog out into the open and trained him/her well. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest