Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 03:00:17 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #361 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Demonstration of character (sidtkd@aol.com) 2. Re: Temporary Black Belt (michael tomlinson) 3. Re: Re: Demonstration of character (John Chambers) 4. Re: Temporary Black Belt (ABurrese@aol.com) 5. Re: confused (Steven Berkowitz) 6. Re: Re: My last try (Steven Berkowitz) 7. Re: Re: Demonstration of character (steven riggs) 8. Re: Re: Demonstration of character (Ray) 9. Temp Black Belts (Horold whalen) 10. Sid's article (SAMMYSADAN@aol.com) 11. Sid (Frank Clay) 12. Down for the count (The_Dojang) 13. Re: Re: Demonstration of character (John Chambers) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:30:42 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wonder if there are many schools that require a demonstration of character (writing, past examples or video, maybe examples of community service) to support their candidacy for black belt. We require a paper of 5 pages. I know from my experience slowing down the award of a Ph.D keeps advisors in busines, guarantees a cash flow and ostensibly makes the degree worth more. Whatever the negatives might be for temporary black belt; its one hell of lot better than automatic black belts for everyone. In Staten Island,NY I know of a 10 year old kid that is a 3rd dan. Now I ask you....is that the biggest crock of ---- you've ever heard of?? Sid --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Temporary Black Belt Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:56:07 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with the post earlier from the gentleman that stated...if you have a student for three to five years before black belt and then you have to put him on a probationary black belt period before you test them for black belt then you are the problem and not them...if you can't decide in 3 to 5 years what is 3 to 6 more months gonna prove??? Hey to each his own but I think this whole "deputy, temporary, probation stuff is goofy" As my dad used to say..."shit or get off the pot"... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Chambers" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:17:54 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That indeed is a CROCK! John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character >I wonder if there are many schools that require a demonstration of >character > (writing, past examples or video, maybe examples of community service) to > support their candidacy for black belt. We require a paper of 5 pages. I > know > from my experience slowing down the award of a Ph.D keeps advisors in > busines, > guarantees a cash flow and ostensibly makes the degree worth more. > Whatever > the negatives might be for temporary black belt; its one hell of lot > better > than automatic black belts for everyone. In Staten Island,NY I know of a > 10 > year old kid that is a 3rd dan. Now I ask you....is that the biggest > crock of > ---- you've ever heard of?? > > > Sid > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:24:30 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Temporary Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray posted: Agreed. I've heard it called Cho Dan (before Il Dan), Probationary black belt, Deputy black belt, Provisional black belt, Temporary black belt. ************************** In Korea it is also called Dan-bo. The HKD school I train at has such a rank. You went from 1st gup to dan bo to 1st dan, or il dan. (Never used cho-dan) The were separate tests for dan-bo and 1st dan that included different techniques. It just varies from school to school, organization to organization. It does not really matter. If you are happy with your school and instructor, you will advance through the tests and ranks that he or she has in the curriculum you are learning. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] confused Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:56:41 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sam: It is always those who see value in governance that are willing to submit to governance. So, what do we call those that are UNwilling? Rebels. As I've watched the last 48 years go by, I have come to realize, from all the third-world countries' events, that rebels are always willing to be paid off to behave themselves. Of course, they never do actually behave; they just become sneakier about the wrongdoing they are doing........ Of course, that would never be the case in the arts! After all, everybody in the arts is honest and forthright..OOOPPPSSSSS! That IS where this all began, isn't it?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] confused > Tom Gordon etc. > > > I don't want to start a controversy here, but I've read all comments on > the Board issue. Mr. Sid never said anything about members of a board not > being corrupted. He brought all the issues out many times and I think some of > you are trying to put this guy through the wringer by misquoting him and > generally negative comments. I've run a dojang now for 23 years and sometimes with > just enough money to pay rent and food. I'm not looking for another expense, > but I'd rather close down than allow the situation as is to hurt kids, rip > off adults and make unsafe conditions. There's nothing Mr. (or master?( Sid > has said that we shouldn't support. > > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Steven Berkowitz" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: My last try Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:00:18 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You huys are going about this Hackeysack thing all wrong....tell him Jack Stern needs a partner. 'Tween the two of them, everybody will simply be able to relax, since they'll finish each other off with thousands of pounds of certifications on each other's chest........ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:46 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: My last try > I think its best to put it this way. Regulations of any sort have the intent of stopping bad behavior. Laws don't guarantee good behavior. They provide a means to limit, correct or punish a rule breaker. Forwarding a google search on how kids are abused by teachers is equivalent to showing information on predator priests. The law is a means of punishing and firing teachers. I would like to see way where Hackworthless would be prevented from practicing martial arts in Florida. We've had corrupt presidents, pope's, parents and extremely rarely (LOL) corrupt martial arts. Our society demands ways to stop, abridge and correct wrong doing. No...it can't be completely prevented. But if that's your arguement...disband all police forces in the US because we still have crime. > > Sincerely, > > Sid > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:57:27 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I require a written exam during the week prior to the physical exam for yellow thru blue belts. The exam is a combination of true false, multiple choice and short answer. Obviously a written test for a 9 year old green belt will be slightly different than for a 25 year old. Brown and Black belts must write papers on subjects of my choosing. Past subjects have included integrity, true courage, indomitable spirit, "how would use your skills for the betterment of your community"? etc. Most if not all candidates (I can't think of an exception), have participated in one or more activities of giving something to the community such as a demonstration for the local Rape Crisis Center. Someone accused me one time of doing the demo's for Rape Crisis so I could get more students. I asked them to consider that I had put in over 60 hours of my time and have yet to see a single student. Because of not getting students one would think I would quit if that were my motive. I had a 14 year old girl attacked in an attempted kidnapping and the police believed would have resulted in rape and maybe murder. She escaped by doing what I taught her in a gym class temporary two week deal. THAT IS WHY I give my time.....My students see me giving time to local charities and they go with me and I believe I set the example that we who are able should give back to our communities. I would also agree with those that have voiced the opinion that if in the last 3-5 years you can't figure out if he deserves a black belt then the problem is with the instructor not the student. Steven sidtkd@aol.com wrote: I wonder if there are many schools that require a demonstration of character (writing, past examples or video, maybe examples of community service) to support their candidacy for black belt. We require a paper of 5 pages. I know from my experience slowing down the award of a Ph.D keeps advisors in busines, guarantees a cash flow and ostensibly makes the degree worth more. Whatever the negatives might be for temporary black belt; its one hell of lot better than automatic black belts for everyone. In Staten Island,NY I know of a 10 year old kid that is a 3rd dan. Now I ask you....is that the biggest crock of ---- you've ever heard of?? Sid _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Sensei Steven Riggs Senior Instructor American Defensive Arts stevencriggs@yahoo.com www.americandefensivearts.org 828-322-6904 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > than automatic black belts for everyone. In Staten Island,NY I know of a > 10 year old kid that is a 3rd dan. Now I ask you....is that the biggest > crock of ---- you've ever heard of?? Wasn't it that crazy Taekwondo/Hapkido guy in Nashville that claims he was a 3rd Dan by the time he was 8 years old... Yep, a big crock'o-cr*p. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Horold whalen To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Temp Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Back in the Day we had a club level Black Belt Test , Which was held at your Dojang or Kwan head Quarter's ,in my Case it was in Seoul near the old Myon Dong Bus terminal at chundo kwan headquarters , price $15 We were told to do every Fall in a class like stetting then Kicking with a partner and against a target ,This was done in front of a test board of five Black Belts all of master rank .The target was a piece of old fire hose nailed to a stick As far a joint locks go it was up the wrist and down the back ,'BOTH SIDES" every technique was to the mat lock them out and follow up if necessary . this was the warm up and then it was the other guys turn. same doe to you Then we were put in the front of the group and one at a time you were attacked full speed and you had to do the technique for real because the attack was for real.. This test was held when you were ready. But the association Test was a little different each time it was at a different Dojang which hosted it that month back then it was every other month, As a hosting Dojang You provided people to take the falls The Association sent a senior to observe the test and they called out what they wanted to see which was nothing like the club test where you limped home , A couple of the people on my board were Master Kim Nam Jae , Master Yu, chun he Master Lee Tae Jun to mention a few after you passed you were presented your first Dan certificate and I'D card price $30 --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: SAMMYSADAN@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:48:05 EDT To: THE_DOJANG@MARTIALARTSRESOURCE.NET Subject: [The_Dojang] Sid's article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I recently read Sid's article from Taekwondo Times regarding fraud. It was very powerful and regrettably accurate. Those that suggest that going to court is acceptable and Boards aren't needed are simply wrong. Courts deal with one case at a time. A board is carefully focused and would deal faster and more globally. I am convinced that Sid is correct. We done things in this haphazard way for many years and we gotten nothing but a whole society of wannabee ripoff artists and jerks that are killing us. Next issue: My master told me that when black belts from a kwon came to a new kwon with good skill they were given temporary black belts. (Black with a white stripe). After six months they were given a full black belt. Upon next promotion given the embroidered belt. Sammy --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Frank Clay" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:11:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sid Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My esteemed colleagues, Please someone show me a perfect system of any type. All systems have a tendency to degenerate into chaos at some point. This is simply the way things are. Am I a proponent of more regulation? No. I don't know if the approached eschewed by Sid is appropriate or not. What I do know is that as voters and citizens it is up to us to change the law. We should start a grass roots movement to have laws put on the books, and be enforced, where the existing laws limit protection. Is that a great system for changing things? No. But if in our actions, we prevent one Sid, one Frank or anyone else from being harmed or cheated, then we have done our job. How many people need to be financially abused? How many people need to have their love for the arts distorted or even harmed. I know people now that after having gone through this I know many people who have very jaded opinion of the arts. that jaded opinion grows and grows and eventually can cause us to lose whatever respect that we have in community. Frank --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:42:41 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Down for the count Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ultimate Fighting's popularity may put boxing down for count Rick Maese Baltimore Sun Aug 26, 2006 I sat ringside for my first boxing match when I was 14 years old. There might have been 100 people in the room, but somehow those droplets of blood chose to fly from the fighter's nose and land on my white shirt. I was infected. Whatever it was about the supposed sweet science, it got me. So it's somewhat sad to see what's happened these past few years and to realize what's going to happen during the next few. A sport like boxing doesn't just die and disappear. It slowly fades away until one day you look around and notice that it's no longer around. Instead, your attention is taken by something else, and it's pretty clear by now exactly what that something else is. The heavyweight title bout between Oleg Maskaev and Hasim Rahman two weeks ago got just 60,000 pay-per-view buys. Tonight's Ultimate Fighting Championship show, headlined by Chuck Liddell vs. Renato Sobral, will likely generate more than 500,000 buys. You see where we're going? No headstone has been erected over boxing's grave, but UFC is holding a shovel and prepared to splash dirt on a casket. "I can't even watch boxing now," Dana White, president of UFC, said recently. "I really can't - and I came from a boxing background. It literally bores me to death. I'd rather watch Power Rangers with the kids than watch boxing." Of course he's going to say that. It's in his interest. But he's actually right. Officials from the boxing end and their UFC counterparts carefully try to distance themselves from each other, but it'd be naive to not recognize the cause-effect relationship. The grandfathers still like boxing; the grandkids are flocking to UFC. "I think it's wrong to compare the two. The similarity is that they're both unarmed combat. But that's it." That's Marc Ratner talking, the former head of the Nevada State Athletic Commission, as respected during his time as anyone in boxing. He's a former opponent of unruly mixed-martial arts and now works under the UFC banner, lending the sport a lot of credibility. He's still a huge boxing fan but concedes: "When old boxing fans pass away, there aren't new ones to take their place." The old guard that runs boxing - the people who made it an exciting sport for many, many years - has been slow to adjust. They don't even recognize that the two might be somehow connected. Even if you want to believe that boxing fans aren't flocking to UFC, you have to recognize that young people who might have been boxing fans 20 years ago are instead buying tonight's UFC pay-per-view show. When I was in Las Vegas recently, I spoke with Bob Arum, who brought the world boxing iconic figures such as Muhammad Ali, George Foreman and Oscar de la Hoya. "I don't think Ultimate Fighting has had an impact except that it has demonstrated to boxing promoters another method to promoting the product. They've done a marvelous job in promotion," he says. "But we have a totally different audience. "The demographic of UFC are young white males. To cater to that audience, you basically only see white men who fight. Our audience for boxing is Hispanic, African-American and maybe a few whites." I'm not saying Arum is wrong, but that's not the biggest difference. Boxing fans were alive when Cassius Clay changed his name, whereas UFC fans couldn't even name Cassius Clay. Which sport do you think has a brighter long-term future? "My biggest beef with boxing right now is that the powers that be, the Bob Arums and Don Kings, they aren't interested in securing the future of the sport," said White, young and brash and with heady plans for the UFC. "They'll never put a dime of their own money back into it. It's all about, 'How much money can I put into my pocket right here, right now?' There's no investing in the future." I hope boxing adjusts. White took a page from Vince McMahon's pro wrestling playbook by using cable programming to promote pay-per-view shows. UFC's reality show The Ultimate Fighter has spawned legitimate stars. Arum hopes to mimic the model using the cable network OLN to showcase younger fighters. Unless those young fighters are in a caged octagon and are fighting mixed martial arts - a la UFC - it might be too late. Admittedly, I was a slow convert. But there's something raw and exciting about UFC and all of its disciplines: boxing, judo, jujitsu, freestyle wrestling, taekwondo and others. When I was in Las Vegas, I toured the UFC gym, where the popular reality show is filmed. The show's first season launched the fighting career of Forrest Griffin, a former police officer from Georgia. Griffin, who squares off against Stephan Bonnar tonight, struggled to describe UFC's appeal, before finally hitting it perfectly: "It doesn't try to be something it's not. We're not carrying sticks and chasing a puck on ice. We're the part of sports that you like. We just get in there and fight in every style we can." --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "John Chambers" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:16:28 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net BIG CROCK IS RIGHT! John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Demonstration of character >> than automatic black belts for everyone. In Staten Island,NY I know of a >> 10 year old kid that is a 3rd dan. Now I ask you....is that the biggest >> crock of ---- you've ever heard of?? > > Wasn't it that crazy Taekwondo/Hapkido guy in Nashville that claims he > was a 3rd Dan by the time he was 8 years old... > > Yep, a big crock'o-cr*p. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest