Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 19:30:23 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #409 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons (Thomas Gordon) 2. RE: reply to victor again (Jonathan Boorstein) 3. reply to victor again (Frank Clay) 4. Laws and Lawyers (rwood) 5. RE: Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons (Joseph Cheavens) 6. What is a Lac? (Tom) 7. RE: Dividing Floorspace (Bert Edens) 8. Re: What is a Lac? (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 9. The Gentle Way (Sharon Tkach) 10. The Gentle Way (Sharon Tkach) 11. Re: Congrats to Sean Bradley, article on Sin Moo (J Hazen) 12. RE: Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons (Jye nigma) 13. Re: Congrats to Sean Bradley, article on Sin Moo (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:28:02 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know, I really don't want to go down this same old same but this is a bit incorrect. "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of education." Consumer Fraud agencies are interested in fraud. Taking your money for KKW and not being able to provide it is fraud. Better Business Bureau is a consumer watch dog...well sorta. If you filed with BBB, there should be a record of it. He should have a business license - go after it. You took him to court and won. Therefore, the judicial system did take interest. KKW had the biggest beef and could have made the most impact - too bad they didn't go after him. We are all regulated and consumers are already afforded similar protection they would get from any other service type business performed by non-licensed people. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:53:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Boorstein Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] reply to victor again To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I share everyone's skepticism about this guy, but I can answer the last point. For the same reason doctors never treat members of their families -- no professional distance. Though that would seem inconsistant with the ethical standards here.... jb "Kevin F. Donohue" wrote: Frank, He is not registered in the state of Florida as a Lac. I asked him where he was certified or registered and he tried to dance around it. I doubt his claims. Kevin F. Donohue -----Original Message----- From: Frank Clay [mailto:frankclay@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:59 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] reply to victor again > Undoubtedly. If he thinks there is a penny to be made he will get involved in it. Here is the thing... he has a PhD but no dissertation that I am able to find and he is an Lac but does not practice? When Julien Lims back was hurt, he let Lee Sauk Kyu work on him but never offered to help him? That makes me suspicious. Why would you NOT help someone that you call a friend? f. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2˘/min or less. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 07:54:08 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] reply to victor again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kevin, Why does that not surprise me? f. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "rwood" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:25:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Laws and Lawyers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clay, With respect, I do not think more legislation is what is needed here. If you can get a conviction in the local court system it will serve to purposes. 1) Justice will have been served. 2) It would identify this guy as a fraud. Even at the local level a conviction of fraud is damning to a business. Look around the town you live and can tell who the good honest business people are. Their parking lots have cars in them and customers going in and out of the business. Also from another stand point, if the guy is convicted you (and all the good/honest martial arts instructors in the area) can say “he was convicted of fraud, so be careful”, as a matter of fact. Your right, this type of behavior hurts all the good/honest martial artists. But do we really want the feds, or even the state, to define the actions taken inside our schools. “I sued and won for misrepresentation and was lucky to win. We are on a slippery slope.” – Sid wrote. Mrs. Jones could say you operated a scam (misrepresented) because little Johnny did not pass his green belt test after she paid for his lessons and a testing fee. As an industry do we really want to answer to some “bean counter” about the differences between a good knife hand block and a bad one? I understand I may have over simplified the scenario, but rest assured the government will not over simplify anything. We need to regulate our selves and use existing laws as needed. IHS, Rob Wood He who ignores disciple comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored. Proverbs 13:18 This electronic communication is from Moberly Public Schools, and is confidential, privileged, and intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the CIS Department immediately at the following e-mail address: tech@moberly.k12.mo.us or by calling 660-269-2665. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm a bit confused, neither Jye nor I stated, "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of education." I think Jye's point was that we don't need additional regulation because the current legal system offers enough protection. My point was that the certification bodies, such as the Kukkiwon, should take a more active role in using the current legal system to regulate frauds who claim bogus certifcation or who sell bogus certifcation.  Of course, plenty of frauds start their own organization (e.g. the International Soke Council), but these type of organizations usually get a bad rap from those that belong to more legitimate organizations. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Gordon" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:28:02 -0500 You know, I really don't want to go down this same old same but this is a bit incorrect. "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of education." Consumer Fraud agencies are interested in fraud. Taking your money for KKW and not being able to provide it is fraud. Better Business Bureau is a consumer watch dog...well sorta. If you filed with BBB, there should be a record of it. He should have a business license - go after it. You took him to court and won. Therefore, the judicial system did take interest. KKW had the biggest beef and could have made the most impact - too bad they didn't go after him. We are all regulated and consumers are already afforded similar protection they would get from any other service type business performed by non-licensed people. Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:55:50 -0400 From: Tom To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: [The_Dojang] What is a Lac? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I must have missed this in the Hackworth thread but what is a Lac? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bert Edens" To: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:03:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Dividing Floorspace Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, sir... Was by your neck of the woods over the weekend, but only passing through... :) At my previous school, we had divided floor space fairly regularly, but you have to be careful which ones you mix. We had Black Belt Club and Cardio going at one time, and that worked since the cardio folks didn't care about the BBC and the BBC was disciplined enough to disregard what was going on at the other end of the floor. Same thing for a demo team practice and grappling, adult advanced belt class and any other class, etc. However, I wouldn't recommend mixing Lil Dragons (I presume they're under 7 or 8 years old?) with anyone... Their attention spans just won't handle the constant sensory distraction from the other end of the floor... Best of luck with whatever y'all decide! **bows** - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas -----Original Message----- Greetings all, Anyone have any suggestions regarding splitting up the workout area in order to run two classes at the same time? We have the full gamut of classes; Lil Dragons, Juniors, Black Belt Club, Master's Club, Fitness Kickboxing, yoga, weapons classes, black belts only, leadership and instructors classes. These all have different requirements on the floor. Some require silence, some music, some a large area and some a small area. Any ideas? Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] What is a Lac? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 09:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net An LAc is a Licensed Acupuncturist. tkdtom@tekennelly .gotdns.com To 10/04/2006 08:55 the_dojang@martialartsresource.net AM cc Subject Please respond to [The_Dojang] What is a Lac? the_dojang@martia lartsresource.net I must have missed this in the Hackworth thread but what is a Lac? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:55:15 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Gentle Way Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain writes: >Scotch - remember? > >And be nice, or next year I won't let you in on Doc's "extras." What's nicer than Scotch (and Rice Wine) by a fire, while it's raining? Ok, Ray, we'll take it offlist. ;) ~Sharon --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:56:42 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Gentle Way Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oops, meant to say Ice Wine, not Rice Wine. ~Sharon --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT) From: J Hazen To: The_Dojang Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Congrats to Sean Bradley, article on Sin Moo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I enjoyed the article. I suppose, though, that my opinion may be a little biased. (= Jeff Hazen "I don't mind being someone else's karmic punishment." -Cael On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Ray deemed the following worthy of noting: R: Congrats to listmember Sean Bradley for getting published in the Journal R: of Asian Martial Arts, vol 15, num 3, 2006. R: R: His article is on Cultivating the Elixir Field with Sinmoo Hapkido's Danjun R: Breathing. R: R: Ray Terry R: rterry@idiom.com R: _______________________________________________ R: The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members R: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net R: Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource R: Standard disclaimers apply R: http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang R: R: --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:33:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net yeah I know I didn't say that...lol. My point is, forget trying to regulate martial arts because that would bring forth a bunch of new headaches with the government regulating anything...lol. My point is go after the person with what is already established....he owns a business. The best thing to do is to get the news involved and they will get all that info out especially the investigative reporters. They will expose him and warn others. So whether I sued him or not, I'd still get the news involved. Jye Joseph Cheavens wrote: I'm a bit confused, neither Jye nor I stated, "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of education." I think Jye's point was that we don't need additional regulation because the current legal system offers enough protection. My point was that the certification bodies, such as the Kukkiwon, should take a more active role in using the current legal system to regulate frauds who claim bogus certifcation or who sell bogus certifcation. Of course, plenty of frauds start their own organization (e.g. the International Soke Council), but these type of organizations usually get a bad rap from those that belong to more legitimate organizations. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Gordon" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:28:02 -0500 You know, I really don't want to go down this same old same but this is a bit incorrect. "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of education." Consumer Fraud agencies are interested in fraud. Taking your money for KKW and not being able to provide it is fraud. Better Business Bureau is a consumer watch dog...well sorta. If you filed with BBB, there should be a record of it. He should have a business license - go after it. You took him to court and won. Therefore, the judicial system did take interest. KKW had the biggest beef and could have made the most impact - too bad they didn't go after him. We are all regulated and consumers are already afforded similar protection they would get from any other service type business performed by non-licensed people. Thomas Gordon Florida _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Congrats to Sean Bradley, article on Sin Moo Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 01:26:12 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Job Sean.....sterling example of Sin Moo Hapkido..... Michael Tomlinson >From: J Hazen >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: The_Dojang >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Congrats to Sean Bradley, article on Sin Moo >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT) > >I enjoyed the article. I suppose, though, that my opinion may be a little >biased. (= > >Jeff Hazen > "I don't mind being someone else's karmic punishment." -Cael > >On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Ray deemed the following worthy of noting: > >R: Congrats to listmember Sean Bradley for getting published in the Journal >R: of Asian Martial Arts, vol 15, num 3, 2006. >R: >R: His article is on Cultivating the Elixir Field with Sinmoo Hapkido's >Danjun >R: Breathing. >R: >R: Ray Terry >R: rterry@idiom.com >R: _______________________________________________ >R: The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >R: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >R: Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >R: Standard disclaimers apply >R: http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >R: >R: >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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