Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:25:18 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #410 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons (saberkowitz@comcast.net) 2. Re: Master Trojanowicz (WTSDA Bruce) 3. Jonathan (Frank Clay) 4. GM West Seminar in Houston TX (kat_kelly@sbcglobal.net) 5. Re: Tae guk inquiry (sidtkd@aol.com) 6. RE: Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons (Jye nigma) 7. USA Taekwondo website (The_Dojang) 8. Re: hunting arrow through bum (Beungood8@aol.com) 9. Re: then... (Beungood8@aol.com) 10. Laws and Kukkiwon (Richard Tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: saberkowitz@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 05:31:36 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net back about 11 years afo(when I lived in Florida), Corey Orr and Chris Hardy came to town. Having known them since BEFORE their little escapades in Chicago area(little bots, seductions, guns, etc), I recognized them instantly. I told them to leace FLORIDA(all of it) or I would reveal them. They threatened me(me a born n raised NJ boy...), so I sent a TV team to them with newspaper clippings in hand. Shut them down within three days..... HOWEVER- that was a drastic case, easy to reveal. Bad business practices is much harder, fraydykent paper for Korea a whole 'nother thing again - useless unless the KukkiOne boys will go along with turning over documents(not usually something they are willing to do) that will also make them stained. And, no law against being morbidly obese and teaching karate to people....... -------------- Original message -------------- From: Jye nigma > yeah I know I didn't say that...lol. My point is, forget trying to regulate > martial arts because that would bring forth a bunch of new headaches with the > government regulating anything...lol. My point is go after the person with what > is already established....he owns a business. The best thing to do is to get the > news involved and they will get all that info out especially the investigative > reporters. They will expose him and warn others. So whether I sued him or not, > I'd still get the news involved. > > Jye > > > Joseph Cheavens wrote: > I'm a bit confused, neither Jye nor I stated, "Martial arts are not > covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business > Bureau or any state department of education." > > I think Jye's point was that we don't need additional regulation because > the current legal system offers enough protection. > > My point was that the certification bodies, such as the Kukkiwon, should > take a more active role in using the current legal system to regulate > frauds who claim bogus certifcation or who sell bogus certifcation. Of > course, plenty of frauds start their own organization (e.g. the > International Soke Council), but these type of organizations usually > get a bad rap from those that belong to more legitimate organizations. > > Joe Cheavens > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Thomas Gordon" > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To: > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons > Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:28:02 -0500 > You know, I really don't want to go down this same old same but this > is > a bit incorrect. > > "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud > agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of > education." > > Consumer Fraud agencies are interested in fraud. Taking your money > for > KKW and not being able to provide it is fraud. > > Better Business Bureau is a consumer watch dog...well sorta. > > If you filed with BBB, there should be a record of it. > > He should have a business license - go after it. You took him to > court > and won. Therefore, the judicial system did take interest. KKW had > the > biggest beef and could have made the most impact - too bad they > didn't > go after him. > > We are all regulated and consumers are already afforded similar > protection they would get from any other service type business > performed > by non-licensed people. > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "WTSDA Bruce" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Trojanowicz Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 04:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I broke out my 1984 edition of the WTSDA BB manual. I checked out Master Trojanowicz's photo on page 70, very impressive. Master Trojanowicz is blasting through what looks like a piece of flat rock (does not look like a patio block). MC was correct that KJN Shin and Masters Beaudoin, Chamblis and Waller are the remaining Charter Masters. There are numerous Charter Members that are now Masters with WTSDA. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Richards" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:58 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Trojanowicz > mc reply, > From the 1984 edition of the WTSDA Dan Manual, the last page includes 15 > Masters who were charter members of the WTSDA on November 13, 1982. > Frank Trojanowicz is listed and his picture appears in the section > detailing 5th Dan requirements, punching through a piece of rock that he > is holding for himself. > Of the 15 charter members I believe 4 are still WTSDA Masters > Jae C. Shin > Robert Beaudoin > Steven Chamblis > Frank Waller > > > --------------------------------- > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:08:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jonathan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I understand your point but if you have the tools, are you trying to tell me that you are going to sit there and watch a friend who is clearly in deep deep pain? I don't think so. I'm not saying that you would go all out but you would in fact try to ease it, I would think. I don't see how that would be unethical. Now if you were providing regular care, I'd see it. But as you clearly stated, this is a tangent that would not be involved in this scenario. This individual has no ethics in my opinion. I know this next piece was not from you but: what I am talking about when I say legislation is the implementation of a statute that explicitly calls out martial arts schools. If other educational bodies can be accredited, why not us? Why not put in place a statute that calls out martial arts schools and specifically a crime associated with them? VA for example has several trespassing laws. Each one criminal and each interlocks with another. Why was that done? It was based on need. It may not need be a statute. It could be a regulation, as certain regulations have the force of law. And industry is generally contacted and review these regulations prior to implementation. They are given a chance to comment. I think a good portion of the problem is the type of people we tend to attract. Many, not all, are egotistical and see a quick dollar to be made. They don't know, or they forget, just how hard it is to run a school. I owned a 4,000 sq foot facility and it was much more work that I care to think about. But I'm digressing a bit. I don't know what the answer is. Obviously regulating ourselves isn't working. We need to find something that does. f. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 06:31:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM West Seminar in Houston TX Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Less then 3 weeks left to pre-register for GM West's all day seminar in Houston TX go to www.hapkido.com click on "seminars and maps" for information and registration form See you there!!! Kat --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 07:40:32 -0400 From: sidtkd@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tae guk inquiry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of my students asked my if I thought that all tae guks came from Korea. It appears to me that both tae guk 4 and tae guk 7 appear not to match the others. Anyone have any info on this? Sid ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:35:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's all about perception. If you approach it trying to win a battle all at once then failure is more likely to occur. However, if you chip away at his operation little by little, then eventually you can make his operation disentergrate from the inside out. So you could get some people who used to train with him and have now "seen the light" to help spread the message via investigative news reporting. You being an actual Kukk cert holder could show what kuk certs should have on them etc. Actually, right now, because the internet is soo big and mainstream media is now using material from the net you can spread the word on your own by making a simple clip about the guy. Matter of fact, there was a guy posing as a Martial Artist; who supposedly developed his own internal system on youtube, and he was commenting on a martial art brother of mine but somethings he said didn't sit right with me, so I responsed with a video of my own just touching on some things he said. and the next thing you know, I got word that he disappeared and took all his videos with him. lol. Some con men vanish when the heat gets turned up. Others you have to really put work into. So the best thing to do is to expose them to keep newcomers away from them and possibly draw out others. But not everyone will leave him, if that's the 1st MA you ever studied then you won't know any better. Jye saberkowitz@comcast.net wrote: back about 11 years afo(when I lived in Florida), Corey Orr and Chris Hardy came to town. Having known them since BEFORE their little escapades in Chicago area(little bots, seductions, guns, etc), I recognized them instantly. I told them to leace FLORIDA(all of it) or I would reveal them. They threatened me(me a born n raised NJ boy...), so I sent a TV team to them with newspaper clippings in hand. Shut them down within three days..... HOWEVER- that was a drastic case, easy to reveal. Bad business practices is much harder, fraydykent paper for Korea a whole 'nother thing again - useless unless the KukkiOne boys will go along with turning over documents(not usually something they are willing to do) that will also make them stained. And, no law against being morbidly obese and teaching karate to people....... -------------- Original message -------------- From: Jye nigma > yeah I know I didn't say that...lol. My point is, forget trying to regulate > martial arts because that would bring forth a bunch of new headaches with the > government regulating anything...lol. My point is go after the person with what > is already established....he owns a business. The best thing to do is to get the > news involved and they will get all that info out especially the investigative > reporters. They will expose him and warn others. So whether I sued him or not, > I'd still get the news involved. > > Jye > > > Joseph Cheavens wrote: > I'm a bit confused, neither Jye nor I stated, "Martial arts are not > covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud agencies, Better Business > Bureau or any state department of education." > > I think Jye's point was that we don't need additional regulation because > the current legal system offers enough protection. > > My point was that the certification bodies, such as the Kukkiwon, should > take a more active role in using the current legal system to regulate > frauds who claim bogus certifcation or who sell bogus certifcation. Of > course, plenty of frauds start their own organization (e.g. the > International Soke Council), but these type of organizations usually > get a bad rap from those that belong to more legitimate organizations. > > Joe Cheavens > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Thomas Gordon" > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To: > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Jye and Joe Cheavons > Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 23:28:02 -0500 > You know, I really don't want to go down this same old same but this > is > a bit incorrect. > > "Martial arts are not covered by the attorney general, consumer fraud > agencies, Better Business Bureau or any state department of > education." > > Consumer Fraud agencies are interested in fraud. Taking your money > for > KKW and not being able to provide it is fraud. > > Better Business Bureau is a consumer watch dog...well sorta. > > If you filed with BBB, there should be a record of it. > > He should have a business license - go after it. You took him to > court > and won. Therefore, the judicial system did take interest. KKW had > the > biggest beef and could have made the most impact - too bad they > didn't > go after him. > > We are all regulated and consumers are already afforded similar > protection they would get from any other service type business > performed > by non-licensed people. > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:07:20 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] USA Taekwondo website Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net USA Taekwondo wants to publicize the hard work you and your students are doing. Here is a great way to recognize your newly promoted students and get terrific publicity for your USAT member club...send in your belt promotions for recognition on the USAT website. USA Taekwondo is developing a new page on its website (http://www.usa-taekwondo.us) to give recognition to all belt promotions awarded at member clubs. All color belt promotions will get their name and member club listed, and all black belt promotions will have the option of including one group photo from black belt testing or one group photo of all the belt recipients. Please submit all information to Bill Kellick at bill.kellick@usa-taekwondo.us. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:15:29 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hunting arrow through bum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/3/2006 5:07:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: That being said, he did give me some bull crap reason as to why he was overweight in the first place. I think it was said on a website that he was hit on the bum with a hunting arrow? --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:17:00 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: then... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/3/2006 5:07:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: his entire weight loss process. Is it possible that he had stomach stapling or used any type of prescription diet aids that would have facilitated the weight lose? At issue here is not simply the man's appearance as it relates to his weight, but his history of deceptive practices and his current venture into the diet book phenomenon. If the weight loss was NOT due to his claims of healthy eating, then ........ Maybe the local Barbecue Rib joint was shutdown? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:14:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Laws and Kukkiwon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you have an official Grand Master in the WTF , Kukkiwon, whom you are a student or instructor under, would not the Grand Master's certificate be enough> After all, this Grand Master oversees all students testing and their black belt testing, they know each student. (well, if they are the real deal) And this Grand Master is a chair person in Kukkiwon. And wouldnt it be a real reward to actualy have the Kukkiwon certificate, the criteria being testing at that school in Korea or, As far as I see it, getting a Kukkiwon certificate, is really difficult . I may be able next year if my Grand Master will let me test for third degree ... in front of Kukkiwon Grand Masters here in this country. But, should all students recieve a Kukkiwon certificate? What about the Ok I got the belt so I am done, or Yep I am a black belt, stopped training once they got the belt, tried to come back and were frustrtated of the lack of skill they used to have, or this is the big one, NOT DEDICATED, all that dicipline, well, gone. Why should these certificates be awarded to quitters? This is why we only get an official certificate after really proving loyalty and dedication to the art. sandy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest