Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:32:53 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #415 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. audio terminology, etc. (J R Hilland) 2. Master Dan regarding changing forms (Dan Scholten) 3. Burlington NKMAA Seminar (kwan jang) 4. RE: Glasses (gtkda@ntelos.net) 5. Re: New Kukkiwon forms? (was Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association?) (Ray) 6. Re: Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association? (Joseph Cheavens) 7. RE: video clip: TKD as a real MA (Joseph Cheavens) 8. Re: Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association? (Ray) 9. Re: Re: Thanks (Joseph Cheavens) 10. RE: video clip: TKD as a real MA (Cayson, Clint) 11. RE: video clip: TKD as a real MA (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 12. From Professor John Chambers (John Chambers) 13. RE: video clip: TKD as a real MA (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:44:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] audio terminology, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am just catching up on my email and I noticed a recent brief discussion concerning requests, once again, for KMA audio terminology. We now have free MP3 downloads available at http://www.hapkidoselfdefense.com/audio.htm. In addition, A Cincinnati, Ohio HAPKIDO SEMINAR will be held Saturday November 11, 2006 (10am-7pm). All adults welcome, regardless of rank or art. $40 if pre-registered. Cameras and video taping allowed, as always. This is a USKMAF sanctioned event and is listed under seminars at www.hapkido.com For seminar specifics, please re: http://www.hapkidoselfdefense.com/events.htm Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 22:23:07 -0800 From: Dan Scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan regarding changing forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All the stir and rumor about new forms or changes has been going on for some time but I don't expect changes soon since the Kukkiwon website and there latest text book which is the best they have ever published to date and DVD's have just been made available this year. Why Change?? The motivation is always money and people much higher up the food chain than us will make those decisions, remember that no small amount of pressure and even heated arguments in forming modern TKD into the 8 Kwan's and the creation by committee of our current forms was made. This was the only way TKD could get government sanctioned sponsorship to pursue the Olympics which again is a big money business. The reason there is pressure now to change is because TKD has failed to reach a large enough audience in the Olympics to make it a viable financial sport. The IOC was going to vote TKD off the games, they were stopped by marketing changes in the fighting and a hint of bringing the ITF into the WTF for a greater membership and a larger commercial audience. In the 70's this would never even been considered but 3 decades later money talks. I think changing or adding new forms would be a way to attract the ITF into the WTF, frankly it would make TKD stronger but opinions are like some parts of our body everybody has one. Many of us are not happy with what happened to the USTU but you do the best you can with what you have. I can only hope that the WTF will never one day say all Dan certificates are null and void and every body has to be re certified and pay new money to start all over again. By the way the Kukkiwon site has a Dan verification link just plug in the person's name and date of birth and you get their current Dan certificate number and the date It was issued. I just found mine from testing 18 months ago and still don't have it but its nice to know its somewhere. Interesting my certificate number stayed the same but the Dan rank advanced I thought the certificate numbers changed each time??? Maybe not. Master Dan --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "kwan jang" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:54:56 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Burlington NKMAA Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wish all list members traveling to the NKMAA seminar, hosted by Master Dusty Miner at his Sidekicks school in Burlington, Ontario, a safe trip next weekend. Drive careful, and see you soon. I also wish all Canadian members a very happy Thanksgiving, and I hope you will all have a good holiday weekend. , Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 08:58:48 -0400 (EDT) From: gtkda@ntelos.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Glasses Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Not sure what style of taekwondo you are practicing, but WTF style does not allow any glasses, even sport glasses, while sparring." I am not WTF. ITF-oriented, so no "rule" like that for us. But I do appreciate your suggestions though. Thanks! James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] New Kukkiwon forms? (was Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association?) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 07:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>> 2) Is there any information on changes in forms that may be coming up >>> from kukkiwon? Is this a rumor or is there some base to this? >> >> The new forms are still in the works. > > Where's the information that the Kukkiwon is changing their forms coming > from? I do find it odd that they'd change them so soon after issuing a > DVD series to (finally) standardize the performance of poomse, but what > do I know? There has been fairly open and active chatter on this topic directly from the Kukkiwon for the last 7 or so years. The Kukkiwon has published several books, videos, web media, and now DVDs attempting to standardize the current set of poomsae since the 1970s, so... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association? Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:20:33 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So, I take it his Kukkiwon certification is a forgery? Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association? Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 08:35:08 -0700 (PDT) > 1)Does anyone know which Korean Hapkido Association expelled Master > Lardass-Hackworthless? I'd be curious to know how they did it and why they > seem to have more integrity than other martial arts organzations? He was a member of, and the expelled from, the KHF. Korea Hapkido Federation. Daehan Hapkido Hyuphwe. http://www.koreahapkidofederation.net/ http://www.daehanhapkido.org/ He was not a member of any other org, save those he created himself, so there was nothing to expell him from... > 2) Is there any information on changes in forms that may be coming up from > kukkiwon? Is this a rumor or is there some base to this? The new forms are still in the works. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] video clip: TKD as a real MA Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Nice. A little flashy, especially the intro, but those guys have some pretty darn solid looking technique. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: TKD as a real MA Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 23:57:18 -0700 (PDT) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9daBdZvd9s&NR --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Which Korean Hapkido Association? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > So, I take it his Kukkiwon certification is a forgery? The ones we saw that he sold were fakes. Unsure about any certs that he may have purchased himself. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thanks Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 11:59:50 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am sorry to say that I am afraid you may be right. :-( Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Chambers" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Thanks Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 13:38:34 -0400 Changing the forms and/or adding new ones is just another way to allow some instructors to increase ($) testing requirements/fees, and add the balance of Crayola's colors to belts. Instead of twenty different color belts, children can now test ($) for thirty! John Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:13 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thanks >Thanks for the quick response regarding Grandmaster Wannabee and the >new >forms. One last question: What is the motivation for changing the >poomse and >does anyone have any insight into whether the new forms will >represent modern >circumstances of battle, eg, fighting against a broken bottle or >disarming >someone with a gun? > > >Sid >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] video clip: TKD as a real MA Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 13:10:42 -0400 From: "Cayson, Clint" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As I was looking at the title of the clip... IMO, TKD is always a real MA. Since it was accepted as a sport in Olympics, the tradition lost its track. Some just practice for the purpose of exercising rather than defending. Clint From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] video clip: TKD as a real MA Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 23:57:18 -0700 (PDT) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9daBdZvd9s&NR --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] video clip: TKD as a real MA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have heard many explanations of the differences between ITF and WTF in that WTF is sports oriented since they have the Olympics, and ITF is more traditional (military style) training. There are many other interpretations of the differences between the two as well as other martial arts. In my own opinion, it is not the art you study or the organization your school is affiliated with, but the style your instructor teaches you that makes the difference. In my school, we learn traditional style (more ITF) forms but also the new style (WTF) forms for black belt levels. Also, if it is desired, students can learn Olympic style sparring. I don't know if any beginning adult students would want to work toward getting on the Olympic team, but do want a practical experiance of facing an opponent in competition. The direction your journey to black belt (& beyond) takes you depends on you. What you want from it, what you get from it depends what you are willing to put into it. Victor As I was looking at the title of the clip... IMO, TKD is always a real MA. Since it was accepted as a sport in Olympics, the tradition lost its track. Some just practice for the purpose of exercising rather than defending. Clint --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "John Chambers" To: Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:25:10 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] From Professor John Chambers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gentlemen: A month ago, someone asked about the lineage history of Tae Kwon Do. Wanted to know all the past and present presidents of the Korea TaeKwonDo Association from around 1955 forward. I decided to take this on, as I have some old TKD books of the 1960s. God only knows how shocked I was to learn that there are as many TKD Styles, systems, federations and systems out there as grains of sand on the beach. Even more shocking is that just about all of them have a different answer, opinion or version to our question. Very few agreed on the order, names, spelling, dates or order that the past presidents of Korea TKD served as president. I just cannot understand how so many that not only teach TKD, but claim to be Masters/Grand Masters of the art, DO NOT KNOW their own lineage or history. Trust me gentlemen when I tell you that my specialty are for 54 years was both judo/yudo, and I DO KNOW the lineage/history of my are inside out! I contacted many of the top masters of TKD and/or their associations, who could not answer our question. (Their names are WELL known in the martial arts circles)! I contacted Korea TKD and was given the run-around. I contacted the Korea Embassy and was given the run-around. I contacted the WTF & ITF, with no satisfactory answer. I will now throw out the same questions to all of the TKD Masters on our Dojang-Digest: "Do you have any idea of the names and correct order that they served as President of the Korea TaeKwonDo Association from 1955 to present?" No disrespect gentlemen, but if you do not know your own lineage/history, then you might consider switching to judo/yudo, and I will see to it that you have all the facts you need. Here are some of the names (gathered in piece mill) that did come across the Internet to my question: Che Myung Sin, Choi Hong Hi, Kang Ik Lee, Byung Jik Ro, Un Young Kim, Choi Sae Chang, Rhee Pil Gon, Hong Choi Soo, Hwe Jang. Nobody agreed on the accuracy or the order of this list. There was a period of time in the early 1960s where the name was: Korea TaeKwonDo / MooDukKwan Association Since TaeKwonDo did affiliate and or spin off a number of styles during the early stages of TKD, this is probably where the disagreements come from. Will you guys who are regulars contributors to the Dojang-Digest jump in and help me finalize this question and once and for all put it to rest? Sorry, but this was the best I could do. Professor John Chambers, Retired --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] video clip: TKD as a real MA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To me, it depends on how the individual is learning and is training in that art. If a school offers realistic combat techniques then you'll most likely be ready for some real deal street stuff. If the school offers sports training then you may want to take that to a competition. Now an individual can take the TKD training and revise it so that it is ready for the street. Jye Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com wrote: I have heard many explanations of the differences between ITF and WTF in that WTF is sports oriented since they have the Olympics, and ITF is more traditional (military style) training. There are many other interpretations of the differences between the two as well as other martial arts. In my own opinion, it is not the art you study or the organization your school is affiliated with, but the style your instructor teaches you that makes the difference. In my school, we learn traditional style (more ITF) forms but also the new style (WTF) forms for black belt levels. Also, if it is desired, students can learn Olympic style sparring. I don't know if any beginning adult students would want to work toward getting on the Olympic team, but do want a practical experiance of facing an opponent in competition. The direction your journey to black belt (& beyond) takes you depends on you. What you want from it, what you get from it depends what you are willing to put into it. Victor As I was looking at the title of the clip... IMO, TKD is always a real MA. Since it was accepted as a sport in Olympics, the tradition lost its track. Some just practice for the purpose of exercising rather than defending. Clint _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest