Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:44:01 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 13 #492 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE. Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) 2. Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwa (Robert Martin) 3. Fraud (kwan jang) 4. RE: Condolences (Joseph Cheavens) 5. History of ODK (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 6. Not feeling good (Johnnie Rouse) 7. RE: from another group: black belt no cert (Joseph Cheavens) 8. >wanna get more confused....read this "TRUE" history of korean martial (Curt McCauley) 9. RE: Not feeling good (Rick Clark) 10. RE: Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwa (Rick Clark) 11. Re: >wanna get more confused....read this "TRUE" history of korean (Ray) 12. Re: Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwa (Ray) 13. Just a quick hello to the list (Ron Cole) 14. Han-gul text (Rocky Abild) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:30:49 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE. Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Its about time you hear the other side of Choi Hong Hi .Im sick of these zealots claiming Gen Coi was the be all, end all of Tae Kwon Do. Kurtis Carter Hi Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >I think it helps to put things on a time line. Choi formed >the Oh Do Kwan as a sub-kwan of the Chung Do Kwan in the early >1950s, primarily with the help of Nam Tae Hi. As you know Nam >Tae Hi was a CDK student that studied under Lee Won Kuk, >beginning in 1947. Choi was permitted to form the ODK >as a sub-kwan under the CDK due to his close affiliation with >Nam Tae Hi. I knew of the affiliation with Nam Tae Hi, but have never been able to get a lot of information on what that relationship was based on. But like you say its good to look at a time line. Lee started to teaching 1945, Nam Tae Hi would have been 2 years from the start of Chung Do Kwan. Nam Tae Hi would have not been very senior if he was able to have some influence on the ability of Choi to form a sub Kwan I wonder what his status was? To be honest I have never heard that O Do Kwan was a "sub Kwan" under Chung Do Kwan. For that matter I don't even know what a sub Kwan might be - would that be similar to when the Japanese styles use the term "ryu ha"? > >It wasn't until 1957 that Choi got into big trouble with Son >Duk Sung, then Kwanjang of the CDK. Son stripped Choi of his honorary 4th >Dan in 1957. So for several years in the mid-1950s Choi had >rank and his kwan had status due to its affilication with the CDK. But once he was kicked >out by Son he had to refocus and use his military rank and influence to >give himself rank and his kwan power, which worked well given the backing >he had from President Rhee Syngman. But that only worked for a few years. The >government then changed hands, his problems came back to haunt him and >he was forced to leave the country. >From conversations back in the 60's with Son Duk Son I got the impression that the only reason the honorary rank was issued to Choi was based purely on politics - being forced to issue the rank. Now I have to admit in the time frame I had these conversations with Son I was young, and low rank, and they were brief conversations. I am sure Son's version was very one sided, biased heavy on his side. So its hard to give a lot of weight to what he said, but if it fits in with what others say and there can be some "real" evidence as to what was going on and we can get away from the biased one sided views that would be great. > >Yes? No? --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:45:03 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If what little of my memory remains true, wasn't Gen. Choi the head of the CDK at one time? I seem to remember reading this in one of the lists of Kwan leaders. I also believe that Son Duk Sung was removed as Kwanjang shortly after revoking the 4th Dan of Choi or around that time. I seem to remember a demand for a 6th Dan certificate came into play. Master Earl Weiss of the USTF wrote a brief article on Nam Tae Hi for TKD Times a few years back a link is at http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/NamTaeHi.html. Robert Martin > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 08:31:45 -0500 > From: "Rick Clark" > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwan > To: > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hi Ray, > >>From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > >>I think it helps to put things on a time line. Choi formed >>the Oh Do Kwan as a sub-kwan of the Chung Do Kwan in the early >>1950s, primarily with the help of Nam Tae Hi. As you know Nam >>Tae Hi was a CDK student that studied under Lee Won Kuk, >>beginning in 1947. Choi was permitted to form the ODK >>as a sub-kwan under the CDK due to his close affiliation with >>Nam Tae Hi. > > I knew of the affiliation with Nam Tae Hi, but have never been able to > get a lot of information on what that relationship was based on. But > like you say its good to look at a time line. Lee started to teaching > 1945, Nam Tae Hi would have been 2 years from the start of Chung Do > Kwan. Nam Tae Hi would have not been very senior if he was able to have > some influence on the ability of Choi to form a sub Kwan I wonder what > his status was? To be honest I have never heard that O Do Kwan was a > "sub Kwan" under Chung Do Kwan. For that matter I don't even know what > a sub Kwan might be - would that be similar to when the Japanese styles > use the term "ryu ha"? >> >>It wasn't until 1957 that Choi got into big trouble with Son >>Duk Sung, then Kwanjang of the CDK. Son stripped Choi of his honorary > 4th >>Dan in 1957. So for several years in the mid-1950s Choi had >>rank and his kwan had status due to its affilication with the CDK. But > once he was kicked >>out by Son he had to refocus and use his military rank and influence to > >>give himself rank and his kwan power, which worked well given the > backing >>he had from President Rhee Syngman. But that only worked for a few > years. The >>government then changed hands, his problems came back to haunt him and >>he was forced to leave the country. > > From conversations back in the 60's with Son Duk Son I got the > impression that the only reason the honorary rank was issued to Choi was > based purely on politics - being forced to issue the rank. Now I have > to admit in the time frame I had these conversations with Son I was > young, and low rank, and they were brief conversations. I am sure Son's > version was very one sided, biased heavy on his side. So its hard to > give a lot of weight to what he said, but if it fits in with what others > say and there can be some "real" evidence as to what was going on and we > can get away from the biased one sided views that would be great. >> >>Yes? No? >> >>Ray Terry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 8991 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "kwan jang" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:35:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fraud Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alan writes: >Sorry to hear about this. Thanks for letting the list know,< Hello Alain. One of my friends tells me that "you must have arrived" if someone bothers to copy your certificates lol. In any case, the list has a lot of members who know a lot of people; so, I would expect few people to get "taken" by these folks after this exposure. Thanks for caring;) Warmest personal regards, Rudy Kwanjang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Condolences Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:04:45 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mike, I'm sorry to hear about the passing of GM Suk Ki Shin. Please convey my condolences to his family. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Donahoo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] not feeling right Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 22:12:29 -0800 (PST) mr. eek3/steve, if you do not feel you are getting straight answers/honest answers then that should be a big tip off. your teacher/master should be someone you look up to, can talk to, trust, and give you guidance when needed. if you are trading your feelings of trust and inspiration for doubt and confusion i personally would find a new school. i could recommend several in the omaha area. i am just up the road in sioux city, iowa. on a second note for you and for everyone else on the list i have some bad news. Grandmaster Suk Ki Shin passed away last friday at 3:15am. he was 66 years old and passed away from cancer. he was an AMAZING martial artist, words could not describe his physical talents. his talents were surpassed only by his wisdom, kindness, and willingness to help and teach everyone. he will be missed. he helped my korean master get to this country as well as a few others. he was a professor of martial arts in korea at young-in university, 52 years of martial arts experience, 9th dan taekwondo, 8th dan judo, 8th dan hapkido, and a 4th dan kumdo. may he rest in peace. in devotion to the arts, mike donahoo ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.  Get a free 90-day trial! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:28:01 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] History of ODK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, Ray is straight down the line with his CDK - ODK history as I understand it from what I have developed. Basic info is published in more that 1 Moo Duk Kwan or MDK heritage book. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Johnnie Rouse" To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:34:19 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Not feeling good Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick wrote: >Its not a matter of homework for me - I was alive and practicing >martial >arts during this time and asked more questions of Korean instructors >than they wanted to answer :-) I second that Rick, it seems there not very many of us old timers around that were in Korea at that very important time in TKD history. I was in the Pyongtaek area where were you? Johnie Rouse --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] from another group: black belt no cert Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:44:00 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmm, sounds like a scam to me. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] from another group: black belt no cert Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) Hello, I am new but was wondering if it is a common practice for instructors (Masters) to test their student for 1st/2nd Dan but never send in for their cert's & ID cards. Also is it common to ask for all testing payment in CASH ONLY? This is done by a WTF/Kukkiwon certified instructor from Korea. Mu son tested over 9 months ago and never rcvd the cert or ID - he works VERY HARD and loves TKD but was just told that his Black belt doesn't exist in the mind of another school or tournaments. Any thoughts? Thanks so much --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:55:55 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] >wanna get more confused....read this "TRUE" history of korean martial Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am confused, I knew about the Mas Oyama being in MDK. But the rest has made me so confused, I am going to do a very sweaty workout to see if I can shake it. Curt McCauley Chief Instructor Channel Town Soo Bahk Do --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:50:09 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Not feeling good To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Johnie, I was in Osan AFB from 1969-70. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Johnnie Rouse [mailto:rmetals@cmaaccess.com] >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 9:34 AM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Not feeling good > > >Rick wrote: > >>Its not a matter of homework for me - I was alive and practicing >>>martial arts during this time and asked more questions of Korean >>instructors than they wanted to answer :-) > >I second that Rick, it seems there not very many of us old >timers around that were in Korea at that very important time >in TKD history. I was in the Pyongtaek area where were you? > >Johnie Rouse --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:59:19 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwa To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Robert, >From: Robert Martin [mailto:kickerfour1999@yahoo.com] >If what little of my memory remains true, wasn't Gen. Choi the head of the CDK at one time? I seem to remember reading this in one of the >lists of Kwan leaders. I also believe that Son Duk Sung was removed as Kwanjang shortly after revoking the 4th Dan of Choi or around that time. I seem >to remember a demand for a 6th Dan certificate came into play. I have never heard that Choi was head of Chung Do Kwan. As to why Son was asked to leave I have heard some stories that I can't confirm but they had nothing to do with Choi. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] >wanna get more confused....read this "TRUE" history of korean To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:30:08 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am confused, I knew about the Mas Oyama being in MDK. Does Mas Oyama actully have a MDK dan #? See, I doubt that Mas Oyama would have done any training under Hwang Kee as I'm pretty sure that Mas Oyama would have been senior to Hwang Kee, esp in "karate". This is why Gen. Choi so wanted Mas Oyama to return to Korea and assist in the creation/growth of Taekwondo. Mas Oyama was rather senior and very well known. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan and O Do Kwa To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:33:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If what little of my memory remains true, wasn't Gen. Choi the head of the > CDK at one time? As the head of a CDK sub-kwan he was an honorary CDK kwanjang. But he was also stripped of that honorary title in 1957. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Ron Cole" To: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:49:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Just a quick hello to the list Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone! I've been a subscriber since mid-November and all I can say is I wish I discovered this list a year ago! I've learned quite a bit in these past few weeks and gained some valuable insights. My family joined a local dojang in September of 2005 and at the rip ole age of 38, I was recently promoted to brown belt. I know there are a lot of dojangs around, but I really feel like my family has found a special place! I'm fortunate enough to be taught by a world class Grandmaster, and the staff and students are a very close-knit family. Anyway, that's my story so far, and I hope that I can someday contribute to this great forum. And if anyone can point me to any additional links about TKD and the WTF, I'd really appreciate it! Gohm Sa Hahm Nida, Ron Cole --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:10:04 -0800 (PST) From: Rocky Abild To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Han-gul text Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net can anyone e-mail me the korean text for "chodan" or "shodan" - black belt? Rocky Abild EMA - Seattle _____________________________________________________________________________ _______ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest