Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:44:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #14 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Nose versus mouth breathing (Jye nigma) 2. RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 3. martial arts journalist (fwd) (antonio) 4. Re: RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed (Ray) 5. Re: Re: Nose versus mouth breathing (Jeremy Anderson) 6. Re: RE: Breathing Confusion (Jeremy Anderson) 7. RE: RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed (Rick Clark) 8. RE: RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed (michael tomlinson) 9. Re: Re: Nose versus mouth breathing (Jeremy Anderson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 04:09:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Nose versus mouth breathing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now we'd have to get into the discussion of purpose of deep breathing. If it is to calm a person down, the principles alone could do that. calm steady breaths. But in regards to a MA. The breath is used for many things. One of which is chi cultivation/moving. There are some internal stylists who state that breathing through the nose only is used for cultivating a type of chi such as tcc. Yet some will have you breath in through the nose, and out through tightly pursed lips with a small opening (I suppose resembling 1 nostril) for a long time. So different methods for different reasons...then ontop of that, different cultures use different methods...lol. Jye Damian Adams wrote: I was trying to discuss the physiology of nose versus mouth in regards to oxygen usage as Jye mentioned (rather than any benefit from being knocked out or not). What I was trying to elucidate without giving it away (eg get you to come to the conclusion), is that it is not the method of entry the air takes but how it enters. Which has more to do with breathing deeply and slowly (which is what most people typically do when breathing through their nose versus the mouth). So if you were to concentrate on taking the exact same slow deep breaths through your mouth as you do your nose then you will have absolutely no difference in your ability to absorb and use the oxygen or to center yourself etc etc. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:09:27 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Joe Cheavens sent this link: http://www.helmets.org/astmdocs/williams.htm Michael Tomlinson wrote: >Ray, this is also the primary reason for football players wearing mouthpieces...they were actually invented to absorb the shock of contact over the idea of protecting your teeth My note: Michael, the link Joe sent says the exact opposite. The mouth guard prevents the mouth from protecting itself, but it does keep the teeth in mostly the same place and helps prevent chipping and breaking. IMHBAUI (In my humble but admittedly uninformed opinion), the mouthgard opens the mouth, makes it harder for the muscles to keep that jaw from moving, and even creates more leverage for a strike to the chin. The other interesting thing from that article was that football players and other athletes with previous jaw joint injuries are predisposed to greater injury from a repetition of the same event. That sounds like older players will start to develop glass jaws. What do you think? Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "antonio" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:09:15 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] martial arts journalist (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a martial arts journalist from the USA doing a story on taekkyon. i was wondering if you wouldnt mind loaning me some photos to use in my story. also if you have any information you would to share with the world or any special quote you would like me to inlude in my article, please tell me. my website is speakingadventure.com so you can find out more about who i am. you cna send me photos as jpegs at this email address. thank you so much. antonio Checkout Antonio's website http://speakingadventure.com/ Get his CDs and DVDS ar http://cdbaby.com/cd/graceffo Get Antonio's books at amazon.com The Monk from Brooklyn Bikes, Boats, and Boxing Gloves The Desert of Death on Three Wheels Adventures in Formosa --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:21:54 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Michael, the link Joe sent says the exact opposite. The mouth guard > prevents the mouth from protecting itself, but it does keep the teeth in > mostly the same place and helps prevent chipping and breaking. IMHBAUI > (In my humble but admittedly uninformed opinion), the mouthgard opens > the mouth, makes it harder for the muscles to keep that jaw from moving, > and even creates more leverage for a strike to the chin. According to the dentist that made my mouthpiece, they are less for protecting the teeth and more for protecting against a broken jaw as well as a concussion. FWIW, he is also a Judo 3rd Dan. The padding between the upper and lower molars that is provided by the mouthpiece absorbs some/much of the force to the jaw so that less force is transmitted to the skull. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 07:08:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Nose versus mouth breathing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- Damian Adams wrote: > ...it is not the method of entry the air takes but > how > it enters. Which has more to do with breathing deeply and slowly (which > is > what most people typically do when breathing through their nose versus > the > mouth). So if you were to concentrate on taking the exact same slow deep > breaths through your mouth as you do your nose then you will have > absolutely > no difference in your ability to absorb and use the oxygen or to center > yourself etc etc. Fluid mechanics tends to agree with this. Appeture (sp) size only has a minimal impact, except at extreme differences. A smaller appeture (nostrils) mostly just increases flow rate (why we cover the nossel on a hose with our thumb if we want it to spray further). The lungs will fill just at about the same rate whether we breathe through mouth or nose. The mouth also adds moisture to the incoming air. But there's a much larger loss of moisture when we exhale. The mouth does nothing to filter impurities, but the nose does. The nose is better at warming incoming air. So, so far I have four reasons to breathe through the mouth: 1) Better moisture retention on exhalation. 2) Filter impurities from the air. 3) Warm the incoming air. 4) Decrease likelihood of knockout from jaw hits. #1 is probably only important in extended "sessions" (training, fighting, whatever) when there's no opportunity for breaks or rehydration. #2 and #3 *may* benefit oxygen absorption in some way by making the air more "lung friendly." #4. I can't say I understand the mechanism for this yet, but the mouthguard is a good illustration. Jeremy Anderson. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 07:09:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Breathing Confusion To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Excellent. Thank you. Jeremy. --- Julie Howard wrote: > I am posting in response to the thread about breathing from the > diaphragm, > nose vs. mouth breathing, etc. > > *************** > >>Jye posted in the Vol 14 # 9 DD "Yes, in normal breathing the lungs > fill > >>up from top to bottom, in deep breathing, they fill from bottom to > top." > > Anatomically and physiologically speaking, this is incorrect. The lungs > inflate the same way whether you breathe shallowly, deeply, in through > the > nose, etc. The air enters the trachea (via nose or mouth), passes > through > the right and left main bronchii, into the bronchioles and into the > lungs. > The body does not make any distinction as to what lobes fill up first as > the > air moves through the respiratory tree the same way each time unless > there > is an obstruction somewhere (then you have bigger problems to worry > about.) > > ****************** > >>Jye then posts in the same DD "The way I was taught was that in doing > deep > >>breathing your shoulders should not raise and fall as in regular > >>breathing. Instead, they should stay in the same place, and only your > >>abdomen should move." > > This is mostly correct. The shoulders and chest should not move when we > breathe at all. Our society is prone to being in a hurry for > everything, > and our breathing is no exception. We shallowly breathe at a quick > rate. > This type of breathing does not engage the accessory muscles of the rib > cage > and abdomen to allow for deeper inhalations. When we breathe in this > manner, we are not allowing for full inhalations or exhalations of air, > thus > diminishing the lungs overall vital capacity for respiration. > > When we train ourselves to breathe slowly and deeply, we allow the air > to > enter the lungs at a slower rate. This engages the accessory muscles of > the > chest and abdomen while the diaphragm drops to allow the lungs to expand > fully and take in more volume of air. The belly should move outward on > inhalation and inward on exhalation. > > ********************* > > Many other questions/comments occurred so I will summarize the process: > > Slower, deeper breathing inhaled through the nose and exhaled through > the > mouth provides the greatest respiratory advantage. When we inhale > through > the nose, we inhale more slowly. The cilia in the nose then filters & > traps > the debris from the air, warms the air, and also adds a bit of moisture > to > the air. This air then travels down the passageway into the trachea, > through the bronchii, etc. The air reaches the alveoli where the oxygen > is > exchanged with carbon dioxide. If we are breathing deeper, we inhale a > larger volume of oxygen. The slower breaths allow more respiration > (oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange) to occur. A long, slow exhalation will > then allow the maximum amount of carbon dioxide to be expelled from the > body. Slower, deeper breathing engages the chest wall muscles and > abdominal > muscles also. This allows for deeper dropping of the diaphragm. The > activity of these muscles also helps to massage and stimulate the > abdominal > cavity organs in a better manner thus allowing them to work more > efficiently > as well. > > If we continuously breathe fast and shallowly, we will train our lungs > to > only hold this lesser amount of oxygen. This diminishes our vital > capacity > of the lungs, thus making it more difficult to take in larger volumes of > air > when needed (during training, fighting, etc.) > > Okay, this has become way longer than I expected, but I hope it does > help. > > Julie H. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:14:08 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi My wife is an Endodontist (specialist in Root Canal treatment), we have a small page on mouth guards on her web page: http://clark-endodontics.com/mouth_guard.htm it has some basic information that might be of interest. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:22 AM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed > > >> Michael, the link Joe sent says the exact opposite. The mouth guard >> prevents the mouth from protecting itself, but it does keep >the teeth >> in mostly the same place and helps prevent chipping and breaking. >> IMHBAUI (In my humble but admittedly uninformed opinion), the >> mouthgard opens the mouth, makes it harder for the muscles to keep >> that jaw from moving, and even creates more leverage for a >strike to the chin. > >According to the dentist that made my mouthpiece, they are less for >protecting the teeth and more for protecting against a broken >jaw as well >as a concussion. FWIW, he is also a Judo 3rd Dan. > >The padding between the upper and lower molars that is >provided by the mouthpiece absorbs some/much of the force to >the jaw so that less force is >transmitted to the skull. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:22:35 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So wearing a mouthpiece is gonna hurt the jaw more than not wearing one?? over the years of playing and coaching football I can count on one hand the number of players I have personally seen experience broken jaws or jaw problems... actually I had one teamate and one player with broken jaws...on the other hand I can't even count on one hand the number of concussions I have personally had while playing football...it would take two hands and they would almost be full...I have personally knocked myself totally unconscious in football practice from hitting someone too hard three times...and that might explain some of my posts!!..my original point is that the mouthpiece was basically invented as a shock absorber to keep the jaw and skull lined up....it does protect the teeth...no doubt about it and that is why everyone uses them BUT they were designed for more than that....in football the chin and sides of the jaw are pretty well protected from the helmet and usually the chin only takes damage from a good tackle in which the tacklers helmet gets under the bottom of the facmask...that is why they went to the hard plastic chin straps many moons ago...personally I hated and refused to use one because they kept all the sweat inside of them so in practice your chin is basically floating around in a pool of your own sweat...very nasty and not good for you complection...LOL....I personally don't feel that the jaw is "less" protected by using a mouthpiece as the article says...IMHO if that were true then wouldn't we see much more broken jaws in football?? I know the article says that later in life that the jaw will become weak...but hey...so have my knees, back, shoulders, fingers, elbows, ankles, wrists, and neck.....if you told a football player that his jaw might weaken over the years from playing ball that would be way way down on his threat and importance meter.....at the end of the day I more than likely don't know what I am talking about or the "science" behind all of this --I am just stating what I've seen and been around on the field and in practice....but take into account that I've only been playing and coaching football for 39 years now so I haven't seen or read everything... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The Jaw Joint and getting KOed >Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:09:27 -0500 > >Joe Cheavens sent this link: > >http://www.helmets.org/astmdocs/williams.htm > >Michael Tomlinson wrote: > > >Ray, this is also the primary reason for football players wearing >mouthpieces...they were actually invented to absorb the shock of contact >over the idea of protecting your teeth > >My note: > >Michael, the link Joe sent says the exact opposite. The mouth guard >prevents the mouth from protecting itself, but it does keep the teeth in >mostly the same place and helps prevent chipping and breaking. IMHBAUI >(In my humble but admittedly uninformed opinion), the mouthgard opens >the mouth, makes it harder for the muscles to keep that jaw from moving, >and even creates more leverage for a strike to the chin. The other >interesting thing from that article was that football players and other >athletes with previous jaw joint injuries are predisposed to greater >injury from a repetition of the same event. That sounds like older >players will start to develop glass jaws. What do you think? > >Yours in the arts, > >Dakin >dakinburdick@yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place!  MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 07:28:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Nose versus mouth breathing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks, Jye, I don't mean to minimize chi cultivation with regards to breathing, but it's something I've never studied, never been trained in, know nothing about, and tend to be agnostic in my beliefs towards. So it's very difficult for me to respond intelligently to. Jeremy Anderson. --- Jye nigma wrote: > Now we'd have to get into the discussion of purpose of deep breathing. > If it is to calm a person down, the principles alone could do that. calm > steady breaths. But in regards to a MA. The breath is used for many > things. One of which is chi cultivation/moving. There are some internal > stylists who state that breathing through the nose only is used for > cultivating a type of chi such as tcc. Yet some will have you breath in > through the nose, and out through tightly pursed lips with a small > opening (I suppose resembling 1 nostril) for a long time. So different > methods for different reasons...then ontop of that, different cultures > use different methods...lol. > > Jye > > > Damian Adams wrote: > I was trying to discuss the physiology of nose versus mouth in regards > to > oxygen usage as Jye mentioned (rather than any benefit from being > knocked out > or not). > > What I was trying to elucidate without giving it away (eg get you to > come to > the conclusion), is that it is not the method of entry the air takes but > how > it enters. Which has more to do with breathing deeply and slowly (which > is > what most people typically do when breathing through their nose versus > the > mouth). So if you were to concentrate on taking the exact same slow deep > breaths through your mouth as you do your nose then you will have > absolutely > no difference in your ability to absorb and use the oxygen or to center > yourself etc etc. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest