Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 12:20:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #43 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,100 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: flow of the ki (BK4Leg@aol.com) 2. RE: Re: flow of the ki (Cayson, Clint) 3. RE: Re: ITF & WTF merger (Joseph Cheavens) 4. RE: Re: flow of the ki (Joseph Cheavens) 5. Grand Master Kim Dae-shik Passed Away on Friday, February 2, 2006 (Joseph Cheavens) 6. RE: Re: flow of the ki (Rick Clark) 7. Re: Re: flow of the ki (Christian Briggs) 8. Re: Re: flow of the ki (Jye nigma) 9. karate an olympic sport? (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: flow of the ki (Ray) 11. Re: karate an olympic sport? (Ray) 12. Re: Re: flow of the ki (Christian Briggs) 13. How do you 'do' Hapkido (jay.oconnor@comcast.net) 14. RE: How do you 'do' Hapkido (David Seward) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: BK4Leg@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:01:50 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/6/07 6:18:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << When I did a little aikido some years ago the instructor told me that I should point my fore finger when executing a throw because that helped to direct flow of the Ki. >> coming out of lurkdom for a bit, as it has been many years since actively training, aside from anything of directing ki, it does have a biomechnical aspect : when pointing the forefinger, you may find the tension of the muscles of the outside of the forearm to be increased. It also for me seemed to add to the crispness of performing certain actions. More of the feel of throwing an object, like a baseball. Try this when holding on to something, to not have the index finger as part of the grip. I get to regularly practice this when commuting to work on the subway. Bernie noo yawk siddy --__--__-- Message: 2 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:03:53 -0500 From: "Cayson, Clint" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I also got that from my old instructor during my aikido days but as I progress there is a matter of how your opponent will be... size for example. Pointing your finger to direct your throw isn't that effective but when there is good execution of a technique, it shouldn't be neglected. Of course, there are conditional cases. Peace! -------------------------------------- Clint -----Original Message----- From: BK4Leg@aol.com [mailto:BK4Leg@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:02 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki In a message dated 2/6/07 6:18:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << When I did a little aikido some years ago the instructor told me that I should point my fore finger when executing a throw because that helped to direct flow of the Ki. >> coming out of lurkdom for a bit, as it has been many years since actively training, aside from anything of directing ki, it does have a biomechnical aspect : when pointing the forefinger, you may find the tension of the muscles of the outside of the forearm to be increased. It also for me seemed to add to the crispness of performing certain actions. More of the feel of throwing an object, like a baseball. Try this when holding on to something, to not have the index finger as part of the grip. I get to regularly practice this when commuting to work on the subway. Bernie noo yawk siddy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF & WTF merger Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:19:37 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do you have a link to any articles on this? What do you think the impact will be on tournament sparring rules? Will the new organization finally start (re-)allowing punches to the head? How about sweeps and takedowns? Leg kicks (ok, I know ITF doesn't allow these either, but maybe it should be on the table)? Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sidtkd@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF & WTF merger Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:42:45 EST Talks have already begun formally and a memorandum of agreement has been signed between these two bodies to discuss formal merger after 33 years. One thing is clear, the union will strengthen taekwondos hand in the Olympics as Karate will now be an Olympic sport of some strength. I understand that each body will recognize the others dan ranks. My question is what do you suppose the new forms will be like? Sid _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo – buy and sell with people you know --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:22:13 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think it has more to do with body dynamics than any mystical Force. Of course, Master Yoda might come along any day now and kick my butt for questioning the Force - uh, I mean Ki. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cayson, Clint" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:03:53 -0500 I also got that from my old instructor during my aikido days but as I progress there is a matter of how your opponent will be... size for example. Pointing your finger to direct your throw isn't that effective but when there is good execution of a technique, it shouldn't be neglected. Of course, there are conditional cases. Peace! -------------------------------------- Clint -----Original Message----- From: BK4Leg@aol.com [mailto:BK4Leg@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:02 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki In a message dated 2/6/07 6:18:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << When I did a little aikido some years ago the instructor told me that I should point my fore finger when executing a throw because that helped to direct flow of the Ki. >> coming out of lurkdom for a bit, as it has been many years since actively training, aside from anything of directing ki, it does have a biomechnical aspect : when pointing the forefinger, you may find the tension of the muscles of the outside of the forearm to be increased. It also for me seemed to add to the crispness of performing certain actions. More of the feel of throwing an object, like a baseball. Try this when holding on to something, to not have the index finger as part of the grip. I get to regularly practice this when commuting to work on the subway. Bernie noo yawk siddy _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:54:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grand Master Kim Dae-shik Passed Away on Friday, February 2, 2006 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is with great sadness that I report the passing of Grand Master Kim Dae-shik. While I never had the privelege of training directly under GM Kim, I have been influenced by him through my study at the US Martial Arts Institute that he founded in Austin, TX. Here are a couple of links to biographical information.  http://www.komudokwan.com/hosinsul.html http://www.usmai.com/history.html Joe Cheavens ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:57:15 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If anyone - ANYONE can demonstrate and example of "Ki" in a controlled setting they can make an easy 1 million dollars. Have a look at http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Part of this page states: "At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event." As far as I am concerned Ki is simply a way a culture explained the unexplainable. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:34:02 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Morning all, So I recently watched an A&E special on the Martial Arts. There was a Master (or GrandMaster perhaps) of Qui Chong (I am probably mispelling that by far...maybe even the wrong one altoghether)...anyway, the guy would wiggle his hands over a persons knees, and his chi would create a sensation of heat. They showed three people reacting to it. Maybe this guy could win the million dollars. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Clark" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki > If anyone - ANYONE can demonstrate and example of "Ki" in a controlled > setting they can make an easy 1 million dollars. Have a look at > http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Part of this page states: "At > JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under > proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, > or occult power or event." > > As far as I am concerned Ki is simply a way a culture explained the > unexplainable. > > Rick Clark > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:18:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That's real....it has to do with spirits that basically enter the vessel. When you meditate you are taught to empty yourself. When you empty yourself, you put your guards down, and are subseptical to any and all spirits that wish to enter your body. This happens because you enter into the altered state called ALPHA. hypnotists, occultist, even fake pastors use this state. It's easier to reach this state by doing drugs, and drinking because those things let your guards down faster. chi kung can also reach this state. the legends of old of master having supernatural power can be viewed as true, but only due to the presence of a spirit within them. I have alot of material on this matter if you're interested I'll share some of the stuff. it really explains some things that happened to me in my training. very interesting but frightening stuff. Now with that said I do believe in an internal power, but having more to do with will power, however, in the higher levels you're taught to envoke spirits. Jye Christian Briggs wrote: Morning all, So I recently watched an A&E special on the Martial Arts. There was a Master (or GrandMaster perhaps) of Qui Chong (I am probably mispelling that by far...maybe even the wrong one altoghether)...anyway, the guy would wiggle his hands over a persons knees, and his chi would create a sensation of heat. They showed three people reacting to it. Maybe this guy could win the million dollars. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Clark" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki > If anyone - ANYONE can demonstrate and example of "Ki" in a controlled > setting they can make an easy 1 million dollars. Have a look at > http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Part of this page states: "At > JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under > proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, > or occult power or event." > > As far as I am concerned Ki is simply a way a culture explained the > unexplainable. > > Rick Clark > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:31:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] karate an olympic sport? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net is karate and olympic sport? I found this but don't know how current it is: Karate is now an Olympic Sport! Updates from the USANKF president’s office USA National Karate-do Federation has complete support from US Olympic Committee! This week USANKF president Roger Jarrett along with General Secretary John DiPasquale, Executive Vice President Eugen Tibon, Treasurer Gary Tsutsui and Regional vice president Cyrus Madani met with the US Olympic Committee in Colorado Springs CO. President Jarrett could not have been happier to announce the continued support for the federation from the USOC. The federation will be making some changes to conform to the USOC models but overall the USA National Karate-do Federation has the complete support of the USOC. The Olympic committee is confident of the new leadership. Jarrett had meetings with the leaders of judo and tae kwon do to find ways to work together and is looking for office space at the facility. In a meeting with Gary Johansen of the USOC rumors were put to rest about any deals made with other national groups vying for the NGB. According to Jarrett “ we are strong and we are here to stay” He also met with sensei Miguel Serrano in Colorado Springs. We will be interviewing USOC director of NGB development Eric Parson for more updates. However the breaking news for everyone is that karate has been raised to the level of an Olympic sport!!!! That is correct karate is now an Olympic sport although it has not been included in the next Olympics the IOC reviewed it’s status and we now have full confidence that it will be included in upcoming Olympics. This is a big plus for karate to be elevated to this status and the support here from the USOC is tremendous for the USA National karate-do federation. Limited time offer $250 lifetime memberships to the USANKF! Along with the positive news the federation will be offering a limited amount of lifetime memberships for $250. This is a fantastic savings that will be passed on to the first 100 members to sign up for this special offer. You can get the forms here. Congratulations on the positive news from the USANKF Board and their successful visit to the USOC. Texas trip – after Colorado – Roger Jarrett traveled to Texas and had a great meeting with 13 clubs joining the USANKF and organizing their RSO. We will have more info on Texas, you may remember what a great national championship was held in Houston. The NKF is growing strong and 2007 will be a great year. Last week Roger Jarrett visited Oklahoma City and the Century Martial Arts facility. He met with Rob Colosanti president of NAPMA. Together they visited with Century to find ways to work together with Century helping support the US National Team. He has also been in contact with several other vendors including Kwon, ASE, AWMA, Kamikaze, Seka, and Arawaza. Rob Colosanti and NAPMA will be available to registered dojos to help grow their programs to become successful martial arts schools. NAPMA has offered their support to the federation. Early next year Jarrett will be traveling to California and New York to forge together the organizations human resources. Alex Sternberg, Cleve Baxter, Ramon Hiraldo and others are beginning to work together. He hopes to meet with George Ashkar, Herb Wiles and all the NY sensei to strengthen the New York metropolitan region. UPDATES In addition to the new members to the board of directors, we will be expanding the referee council and growing the referee corps by increasing the numbers of regional clinics being offered. The technical committee is to be expanded to include more Okinawan stylist, kobudo, and kumite expertise. It is good to see more senior karateka working once again with the coaching staff. We plan to have more regional camps for athletes and their sensei. Having the instructors attend will be useful for the athletes and program to share information. There is a new training facility being built in Miami that will be ready in 2009. We must not forget our senior instructors as it is time to have an advisory council of the senior sensei and take advantage of their wisdom and experience. You can register your club membership now and we as well. You can join here. Join now and save. We will be offering bronze, silver and gold memberships for clubs. Note: there will be a US team training camp in St. Albans West Virginia on January 4-6, 2007. What a great way to start the year off! --------------------------------- Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:41:29 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > That's real....it has to do with spirits that basically enter the vessel. Sounds like you should go for the $1M then... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] karate an olympic sport? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:42:20 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > is karate and olympic sport? It may be eventually, but apparently not until 2016 at the earliest... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:14:54 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would be actually interested in reading more about it....but I must say that I am somewhat skeptical about "mystic" chi or ki energy. Saying that...I also believe that internal energy is very real, and that some of the "superhuman feats" or more focus and intensity than any thing else. It would be pretty sweet to be a jedi though. -Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jye nigma" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki > That's real....it has to do with spirits that basically enter the vessel. > When you meditate you are taught to empty yourself. When you empty > yourself, you put your guards down, and are subseptical to any and all > spirits that wish to enter your body. This happens because you enter into > the altered state called ALPHA. hypnotists, occultist, even fake pastors > use this state. It's easier to reach this state by doing drugs, and > drinking because those things let your guards down faster. chi kung can > also reach this state. the legends of old of master having supernatural > power can be viewed as true, but only due to the presence of a spirit > within them. I have alot of material on this matter if you're interested > I'll share some of the stuff. it really explains some things that happened > to me in my training. very interesting but frightening stuff. Now with > that said I do believe in an internal power, but having more to do with > will power, however, in the higher levels you're taught > to envoke spirits. > > Jye > > > Christian Briggs wrote: > Morning all, > > So I recently watched an A&E special on the Martial Arts. There was a > Master (or GrandMaster perhaps) of Qui Chong (I am probably mispelling > that > by far...maybe even the wrong one altoghether)...anyway, the guy would > wiggle his hands over a persons knees, and his chi would create a > sensation > of heat. They showed three people reacting to it. Maybe this guy could win > the million dollars. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Clark" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:57 AM > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: flow of the ki > > >> If anyone - ANYONE can demonstrate and example of "Ki" in a controlled >> setting they can make an easy 1 million dollars. Have a look at >> http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Part of this page states: "At >> JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under >> proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, >> or occult power or event." >> >> As far as I am concerned Ki is simply a way a culture explained the >> unexplainable. >> >> Rick Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members >> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and > always stay connected to friends. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: jay.oconnor@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:21:20 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] How do you 'do' Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, This is from a letter I sent to my instructor this morning. I have not heard back but I was wondering if anyone else has thoughts... ------------------------------------------------- Here's something that has been running through my head for a few days and I thought I would ask you How do you do Hapkido? OK, that makes no sense so I will explain :) As a musician, I spend a lot of time working with my instrument on drills, scales, practicing, learning, streatching and growing. However that is a means to an end; the end is to play, to create music. Whether recording or playing live, I take all those hours of practice and go do something with it that is fun and personally rewarding. Most hobbies are like that. Now Im wondering about MA in the same light. Are we spending hours and hours and weeks and months and years training for that point in time that we pray really never happens (the self-defense/real world encounter). Or is there some way to take what we learn, what we practice, what we drill and turn it into something...I don't know...something fun? Something personal? I suppose Sparring and Forms would fit into this as 'something to do that can be a personal satisfaction to exercise the skills I've spent so much time developing'. However [the adults] really don't do forms. So I'm wondering, a lot just for myself. How does one take the skills and techniques; the physical and mental improvements, and translate them into 'something fun to pass the time and feel like I've accomplished something' Is it all about having a higher and stronger kick? Or can I do something more? This is not about being bored; it's just about finding a us and an expression for a way of life. ------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Jay --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "David Seward" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] How do you 'do' Hapkido Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't practice Hapkido, but what about tournaments? Regards, David Seward -----Original Message----- From: jay.oconnor@comcast.net [mailto:jay.oconnor@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:21 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] How do you 'do' Hapkido All, This is from a letter I sent to my instructor this morning. I have not heard back but I was wondering if anyone else has thoughts... ------------------------------------------------- Here's something that has been running through my head for a few days and I thought I would ask you How do you do Hapkido? OK, that makes no sense so I will explain :) As a musician, I spend a lot of time working with my instrument on drills, scales, practicing, learning, streatching and growing. However that is a means to an end; the end is to play, to create music. Whether recording or playing live, I take all those hours of practice and go do something with it that is fun and personally rewarding. Most hobbies are like that. Now Im wondering about MA in the same light. Are we spending hours and hours and weeks and months and years training for that point in time that we pray really never happens (the self-defense/real world encounter). Or is there some way to take what we learn, what we practice, what we drill and turn it into something...I don't know...something fun? Something personal? I suppose Sparring and Forms would fit into this as 'something to do that can be a personal satisfaction to exercise the skills I've spent so much time developing'. However [the adults] really don't do forms. So I'm wondering, a lot just for myself. How does one take the skills and techniques; the physical and mental improvements, and translate them into 'something fun to pass the time and feel like I've accomplished something' Is it all about having a higher and stronger kick? Or can I do something more? This is not about being bored; it's just about finding a us and an expression for a way of life. ------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Jay _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,100 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest