Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:57:58 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #64 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Teaching Methods (bjpritch@comcast.net) 2. "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." (SSHapkido@aol.com) 3. Re: Teaching methods (sidtkd@aol.com) 4. RE: Teaching methods (Jeff Yeagley) 5. Re: RE: Teaching methods (Taekwondo America) 6. Belt Cutting (E. Montgomery) 7. RE: Belt cutting (Frank Clay) 8. teaching methods (Curt McCauley) 9. teaching methods (Robert Martin) 10. Belt cutting (Robert Martin) 11. RE: teaching methods (michael tomlinson) 12. Teaching Methods (Mark Gajdostik) 13. Jackson (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: bjpritch@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:15:41 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Teaching Methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To Whom It May Concern, I don't know that you were necessarily wrong in your teaching, but you may want to remember when dealing with kids, the problems aren't normally with what you teach, but the perception...by parents and child. Especially if this was a first/second class. To me, teaching children and adults is way different. In our school when I am faced with that situation with children, I to try and keep it light when I explain why we shouldn't pocket it our hands. I usually use a higher belt as an example so I don't intimidate new folks. If this doesn't work then I get a little more serious and take a roll of duct tape out of the training tub and tape their pockets shut. I try very hard in the first few practices not to touch/hit/kick my beginners without telling them this will happen first. Normally I will say I am going to hold your arm to help you balance and then we will kick that foot. That way I don't initimidate the child, or scare their parent into thinking I'm going to beat the t ar out of there kid for not following my rules. When I have duct taped pockets shut, I usually do make a joke out of it or keep it light. Now, on the flip side - I am also known for tapping my higher belts (children) upside the head with a back hand or something if they don't keep their blocks up during warm up kicks - nothing hard, just a reminder type thing. I usually tap them lightly then ask the class why could I get in on them? I almost always get the resounding answer his/her hands were down...This way the new students do see there will be contact. I also try things like six inches or push-ups to get kids attention who aren't paying attention. This usually works better with my younger kids as gentle reminders to follow the class rules. (six inches is for the kids who can't or won't do push-ups correctly) Please understand I am a relatively new instructor, only a few years teaching under my belt, and this is only my opinion - it's not gospel so others don't blast me out of the water; however better training advice is always loved... This and a few bucks can get you a cup of coffee at Dunkin Donuts Good luck with your teachings in the future. Yours in the Arts, BJ Pritchett > I have a question for the instructors on the list. Here is what happened. > Last Wednesday night I one of our new white belt students (who by the way > does not have a uniform yet and was just wearing workout cloths), was having > trouble keeping his hands out of his pockets. The second or third time I > asked him to take them out of his pocket I gave him a couple of quick light > kicks to the stomach while repeating myself, more messing around than > serious. Nothing hard at all, really just reinforcement about why a person > might not want there hands in their pockets in the middle of a martial arts > class. > > Today, the father comes into class before it starts and tells me that his > son said I kicked him for having his hands in the pockets and wanted to know > if that was true. So, I said yes in fact it was true and that it was > certainly not done in a malicious way but as a way to help get my point > across. We had a little discussion about the whole thing and in the end the > father's point was that he thought I was a bully and that he did not think > my method of teaching was a very good way to teach kids respect which was > why he signed his kid up in the first place. I then gave him a few thoughts > from my perpective: that it is not respectful to put your hands in your > pockets when you are supposed to be lining up to work with a partner and > that it is a martial arts class and in fact what we do kick and punch in > class. > > All that said, I didn't see the what happend as a big deal at all until the > father came in. So the question is who thinks I was out of line and need to > change my evil ways and who agrees with me? > --__--__-- Message: 2 From: SSHapkido@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:46:49 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "A Lolita-like relationship with a teenage female athlete has landed an internationally respected taekwondo instructor a jail term of 18 months." And this is an example of what is wrong in our world today. A 31 year old sleeps with a 14 year old student...someone who looks up to him with respect, may see in him a father figure and role model...this is statutory rape and child porn if there are pictures, not to mention just downright low down. He should have gotten 18 years or more....or maybe the judge should have just let the girl's parents castrate him...publicly! No, he'll be well fed, well clothed, comfortably housed, allowed an exercise area, etc...for 18 months, then patted on the head and released. Counseling for sexual immaturity...I would laugh at that if it wasn't so pathetic...I'm thinking that 40 lashes administered by some big brute might have longer lasting benefits. SS


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: sidtkd@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 07:17:18 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Simple: Don't kick the students. Teach through expertise and inspiration. This isn't Korea. Sid


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:09:09 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In our dojang, the newer students are treated with a degree of leniency until we are sure they: 1)know, and 2)understand our rules. I see it as our responsibility to help them learn both the culture as well as the technique of the martial arts. You don't say how old the student was, but it seems like a child/junior. A younger student can be intimidated by an older or larger instructor, and this student may have taken the "messing around" differently from what was intended. The fact that he doesn't have a uniform yet seems to indicate the student has not been there that long. My experience is that most new students are a little nervous at first (regardless of age). As instructors, we have probably all done or said something that later, we admit we could have done differently. With customer service in mind, if I had unintentionally done something like this, I would apologize to the student and parent, explain our rules (and consequences of not following them) to both the student and parent, then suggest they go ahead and purchase a uniform, which would eliminate the chance that this behavior would be repeated. Anyway, that's my two cents. Jeff Yeagley http://www.WeTrainHarder.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:35:54 -0600 From: Taekwondo America To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have two rather divergent thoughts on this subject. One, you probably shouldn't have kicked him, not because you would ever hurt him intentionally, but because obviously he has a very different perception of martial arts training that what is really going on in your school. He has been EXPECTING to be hurt, and was just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. He was probably putting his hands in his pockets because he was nervous, and never intended disrespect. Unfortunately, you only find out what he was thinking after he complains to his father. If I playfully kick an advanced student, even a child, I expect that the student has had enough training that a) being kicked isn't unusual for him/her, and b) that he/she knows enough to tighten stomach muscles and/or block. I don't expect beginners to have these reflexes. My other thought is that if a student is this nervous after several classes, then he probably isn't going to last long in martial arts anyway. I think you should apologize, not necessarily for kicking him, but for accidentally making him uncomfortable in training. It's the same attitude as, when you hurt someone in sparring, you have to turn around and kneel down to show sorrow for the accident. You aren't sorry you scored on them. You're sorry they were hurt. Then tape his pockets shut. It's not a respect thing. It's a self-defense thing. And isn't that why his parents are paying for lessons? Cheryl Rogers --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 07:45:09 -0800 (PST) From: "E. Montgomery" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt Cutting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is true that any where you have competition, you will have cheating. I am proud to say that in our school, our instructor will tell us to fight up a rank or age group rather than down, since, after all, we are there to learn. _____________________________________________________________________________ _______ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:02:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Belt cutting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is not new or unusual unfortunately. I remember when I first became a yudanja, and went to a tournament as a coach, I bumped into a gentleman who was not only a yudanja but my senior... and he was wearing a red belt. It was because he was afraid of being in the black belt division. Of course, I was under the impression that one of the things we were trying to do was to face our fears but hey. Very sad indeed, particularly since any color belt coming up against this guy would nearly be lost. ~f. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching methods Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:07:35 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jason or Nicole, I stock three uniforms in each size. No paying member comes on my mat with out a uniform. Therefore, no pockets. As far as making contact with a student, I very rarely do. And usually it is a demonstration using a 3rd dan Ssang Ho Kahn (Uke). I like the analogy of hands in pocket equal inablility to defend. But pummeling a beginning student would lead to misunderstanding and it would probably appear to an outsider that the instructor was a bully or a show off, no matter what the real reason. Perhaps using duct tape on the pockets, so hands can't get in. Curt McCauley Chief Instructor Channel Town Soo Bahk Do --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:50:15 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my opinion you were out of line. Discipline is important but there is a limit to the kind of thing that can be done. I suspect that a dozen pushups would have gotten the point across and not upset a parent. FWIW, kicking a student as discipline, in this case, is a misuse of Taekwon-Do skills. Robert Martin > Message: 5 > From: "Jason & Nicole Swanson" > To: > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:54:25 -0600 > Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching methods > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I have a question for the instructors on the list. Here is what happened. > Last Wednesday night I one of our new white belt students (who by the way > does not have a uniform yet and was just wearing workout cloths), was > having > trouble keeping his hands out of his pockets. The second or third time I > asked him to take them out of his pocket I gave him a couple of quick > light > kicks to the stomach while repeating myself, more messing around than > serious. Nothing hard at all, really just reinforcement about why a > person > might not want there hands in their pockets in the middle of a martial > arts > class. > > Today, the father comes into class before it starts and tells me that his > son said I kicked him for having his hands in the pockets and wanted to > know > if that was true. So, I said yes in fact it was true and that it was > certainly not done in a malicious way but as a way to help get my point > across. We had a little discussion about the whole thing and in the end > the > father's point was that he thought I was a bully and that he did not think > my method of teaching was a very good way to teach kids respect which was > why he signed his kid up in the first place. I then gave him a few > thoughts > from my perpective: that it is not respectful to put your hands in your > pockets when you are supposed to be lining up to work with a partner and > that it is a martial arts class and in fact what we do kick and punch in > class. > > All that said, I didn't see the what happend as a big deal at all until > the > father came in. So the question is who thinks I was out of line and need > to > change my evil ways and who agrees with me? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 9904 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:51:15 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt cutting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One word -- integrity. Robert Martin > > Message: 1 > From: Tkdsid@aol.com > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 06:50:34 EST > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Belt cutting > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > In New York,if not elsewhere, many Masters have instructed their student > competitors to enter competition at one belt lower than they actually > have. This > allows them to fight less experienced students and are given an edge. If I > hadn't seen that I would not have believed it. Why not avoid all the > trouble > and just buy the trophy!!! Every time I think I've seen the worst I'm > never > surprised to find someone doing something even more awful. > > > Sid > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 9904 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] teaching methods Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:48:06 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You were totally wrong...you should have told him that whatever he wanted to do in your class was alright because him and his father are in charge and that you are just a subserviant fool that only exists as a servant to their every whim and whining moment..... Really though...sounds good to me...putting your hands in your pockets is not appropriate any time in a martial arts class or in alot of other places also...sounds like him and his father are sensitive whiners to me...what did they think they were signing up for??? Group therapy and hugs....another indicator to me is the fact that his father signed him up to learn respect.....doesn't he teach him respect??? Probably not and caters to his young son who sounds like he is the real alpha in their skewed household.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Jason & Nicole Swanson" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching methods >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:54:25 -0600 > >I have a question for the instructors on the list. Here is what happened. >Last Wednesday night I one of our new white belt students (who by the way >does not have a uniform yet and was just wearing workout cloths), was >having >trouble keeping his hands out of his pockets. The second or third time I >asked him to take them out of his pocket I gave him a couple of quick light >kicks to the stomach while repeating myself, more messing around than >serious. Nothing hard at all, really just reinforcement about why a person >might not want there hands in their pockets in the middle of a martial arts >class. > >Today, the father comes into class before it starts and tells me that his >son said I kicked him for having his hands in the pockets and wanted to >know >if that was true. So, I said yes in fact it was true and that it was >certainly not done in a malicious way but as a way to help get my point >across. We had a little discussion about the whole thing and in the end >the >father's point was that he thought I was a bully and that he did not think >my method of teaching was a very good way to teach kids respect which was >why he signed his kid up in the first place. I then gave him a few >thoughts >from my perpective: that it is not respectful to put your hands in your >pockets when you are supposed to be lining up to work with a partner and >that it is a martial arts class and in fact what we do kick and punch in >class. > >All that said, I didn't see the what happend as a big deal at all until the >father came in. So the question is who thinks I was out of line and need >to >change my evil ways and who agrees with me? >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01 --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Mark Gajdostik" To: Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:21:05 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching Methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, If the hands are in the pockets, the student is going to have a hard time defending himself. Here is what I do: I have new students take a mandatory 15 minute intro lesson with me before they are allowed to participate in a normal class. I take another 15 to give them an orientation on the rules/regulations, etiquette etc. I always make sure to remind students they are the one who is primarily responsible for their safety in class. Hands in the pockets is one of the things I specifically mention. I also mention distracters like playing with hair, picking the nose etc. (especially for kids). For people trying the class out I don't give them a full copy of the rules/regs, but do give them a shorter orientation checklist they can keep and read. All members receive a copy of rules & orientation and initial on the enrollment form that they know, have, and will abide by the rules...all of them. I also have a 3 strikes rule for removal of students who violate rules. After a warning during class to keep their hands out, I mention loudly what will happen if they do it again...me or one of my high ranks will jump them, trap their arms (with hands in pockets) take them down and 'choke' them out (very slowly and lightly I may add) while talking into their ear that they cannot hope to defend themselves with their hands in their pockets. The hands in the pockets takedown and choke-out has kind of become a right of passage for new kids class students. Remember, your school rules exist for the safety of everyone and for the timely participation in class drills and training. Nothing is worse than having a partner who is constantly tying their belt, putting on a hair tie or rolling their pants to avoid training hard. Hands in the pockets is just another one of those time wasters. It is always better to lose (or force out) problem customers/students (or micro managing parents) than lose your established customers/students that are forced to work with a partner who refuses to abide by the same rules as everyone else. There is a certain amount of customer service you are expected to provide, but know that especially with new students and their parents, if you start your business relationship by giving everything they want, or changing your established practices just for them, they will expect that in the future....when is my kids next test, my kid is ready for their test, I think you should give them a ______belt, can you change your class time so we can make it, my kid wants a different color uniform than everyone else, can I have a discount on that gear, can we just borrow some of your gear instead of buying....the list can go on and on. Nip that in the bud. I recently had a parent want their little boy of 12 years old (5-08, 155 lbs.) to participate in the kids class instead of the youth/adult because they didn't want them having to work so hard and get injured against bigger people. The parent didn't like it when I said no. Same student who is a constant pant/sleeve roller, late for class, takes forever to get up when thrown etc. I will try my best to make him perform, but realistically I don't see him continuing, and quite honestly, his training partners would be better off without him. Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts 503-640-8400 www.TNTma.com --__--__-- Message: 13 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:51:16 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To all my current and future friends just leaving the huge KMA event in Jackson.... Damn, I wish I could have been there with you. I'm sure it was great time and lots of people to meet, see again, and things many to learn. Wish I had been there with you. Hopefully next time... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest