Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:08:55 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #65 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. kicking students (- -) 2. Re: teaching methods (steven riggs) 3. Re: Re: Teaching methods (keiron henderson) 4. RE: Teaching Methods (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. Re: method of teaching (Raymond Navarro) 6. Re: Re: Teaching methods (michael tomlinson) 7. RE: teaching methods (Stovall, Craig) 8. Weight (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. RE: Re: Belt cutting (Joseph Cheavens) 10. Weight / belt cutting (Gordon) 11. Technical Update and Level 1 Seminar (Martial Arts Seminars) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: - - To: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:17:58 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] kicking students Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OMFG!! Sorry-Personally I dont think You were wrong-But you(and several others here)seem to forget thet you are just an instructor-Your actions directly reflect on your Instructor-or Master!!This is not your school you're advertising(Personally -I would go for MasterXXXXX's school of Pain)That is how it was done in the old days-But with "politically correct" bs and the such-I have learned that it is just as important to be ,,,,ummmm,,,delicate,,,,, with new students,Remember Mr Tomlinson owns his school-and so do most of the others-If it was my school-that would be fine too.,.,.but you are just an instructor , ,, You are an image to your students-"maybe in the old days-no-definitely in the old days-if your daddy came to defend you-he may get a few free classes-but the tides have changed-My instructor has definitely ,,,,pulled my reigns quite a bit... Every once in a while old friends stop in and wonder what happened to me-But its just in the interest of bein able to teach- Funny,now that i speak of this,,,,I seem toi recall my instructor bein quite a bit harder on my son-goin 4 his BB this summer,,after a long ,,,retreat(gee-i wonder why-mustave been too many push-ups-or hard(very hard ) sparring classes Like I said-I dont think you did any wrong-but remember-you are just an instructor-learn how to mold them,,,dont learn how to force them,,they will just leave if u do-At the end of the year-it's not how many students you've chased off-but how many you have taught BAAL > > I have two rather divergent thoughts on this subject. One, you probably > shouldn't have kicked him, not because you would ever hurt him > intentionally, but because obviously he has a very different perception > of martial arts training that what is really going on in your school. He > has been EXPECTING to be hurt, and was just waiting for the other shoe > to drop, so to speak. He was probably putting his hands in his pockets > because he was nervous, and never intended disrespect. Unfortunately, > you only find out what he was thinking after he complains to his father.I think you should apologize, not necessarily for kicking him, but for > accidentally making him uncomfortable in training. It's the same > attitude as, when you hurt someone in sparring, you have to turn around > and kneel down to show sorrow for the accident. You aren't sorry you > scored on them. You're sorry they were hurt.> > > In my opinion you were out of line. Discipline is important but there is a > limit to the kind of thing that can be done. I suspect that a dozen pushups > would have gotten the point across and not upset a parent.> > You were totally wrong...you should have told him that whatever he wanted to > do in your class was alright because him and his father are in charge and > that you are just a subserviant fool that only exists as a servant to their > every whim and whining moment.....> > Really though...sounds good to me...putting your hands in your pockets is > not appropriate any time in a martial arts class or in alot of other places > also...sounds like him and his father are sensitive whiners to me...what did > they think they were signing up for??? Group therapy and hugs....another > indicator to me is the fact that his father signed him up to learn > respect.....doesn't he teach him respect??? Probably not and caters to his > young son who sounds like he is the real alpha in their skewed household....> Michael Tomlinson> _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:41:31 -0800 (PST) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] teaching methods To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would suspect that I am not the only one who sometimes just latches onto push ups as a means of making a point or a type of punishment. We ought to be looking for new and better ways of getting discipline/respect integrated into the classroom both from instructor to student and between student to student. I recently told a young white belt that she was to go to the side of the classroom and do 10 push ups and 10 situps for disobeying me for 3 x in a row. After the push ups she came back in tears saying she did not know how to do a situp. It was a learning experience for both of us as I assumed she would make the tie to crunches. I saw several issues in this exchange. 1. This was not a one time disobedience factor but a repeated problem. 2. There was no malice from the instructor in my take on this. 3. No power to do any damage was used (if an instructor can't gauge the difference between light taps and sharp stings then he shouldn't be teaching. 4. Let us not be rushing to judgment on the teacher for the act alone when he stated clearly two important factors involved. a. the student had been warned TWO OR THREE TIMES. When I teach I expect compliance on the first statement unless there is something that interferes such as needing to increase my volume or a lack of clarity due to it being a new technique etc. b. Just as importantly as the lack of compliance was the tie in to why a martial artist would not want to have his hands in his pockets. As I read this story I came away with the strong feeling that it was the parent who was the problem due to a lack of discipline at home. I have faced that on a few occasions but fortunately it has been few as I have been blessed by a very supportive group of parents. The mother of the young white belt listed above commented to me that I should feel free to make her daughter "do push ups till her arms drop off if she disobeyed me in any way as that was not the way she was taught at home" I am willing to give the instructor the benefit of the doubt as 1. I was not there, 2. There appeared to be no malice or anger. 3. I sensed the intent to be aimed as being for the benefit of the student. Steven Riggs Robert Martin wrote: In my opinion you were out of line. Discipline is important but there is a limit to the kind of thing that can be done. I suspect that a dozen pushups would have gotten the point across and not upset a parent. FWIW, kicking a student as discipline, in this case, is a misuse of Taekwon-Do skills. Robert Martin > Message: 5 > From: "Jason & Nicole Swanson" > To: > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:54:25 -0600 > Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching methods > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I have a question for the instructors on the list. Here is what happened. > Last Wednesday night I one of our new white belt students (who by the way > does not have a uniform yet and was just wearing workout cloths), was > having > trouble keeping his hands out of his pockets. The second or third time I > asked him to take them out of his pocket I gave him a couple of quick > light > kicks to the stomach while repeating myself, more messing around than > serious. Nothing hard at all, really just reinforcement about why a > person > might not want there hands in their pockets in the middle of a martial > arts > class. > > Today, the father comes into class before it starts and tells me that his > son said I kicked him for having his hands in the pockets and wanted to > know > if that was true. So, I said yes in fact it was true and that it was > certainly not done in a malicious way but as a way to help get my point > across. We had a little discussion about the whole thing and in the end > the > father's point was that he thought I was a bully and that he did not think > my method of teaching was a very good way to teach kids respect which was > why he signed his kid up in the first place. I then gave him a few > thoughts > from my perpective: that it is not respectful to put your hands in your > pockets when you are supposed to be lining up to work with a partner and > that it is a martial arts class and in fact what we do kick and punch in > class. > > All that said, I didn't see the what happend as a big deal at all until > the > father came in. So the question is who thinks I was out of line and need > to > change my evil ways and who agrees with me? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 9904 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Sensei Steven Riggs Senior Instructor American Defensive Arts stevencriggs@yahoo.com www.americandefensivearts.org 828-322-6904 --------------------------------- Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:15:32 +0900 From: "keiron henderson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Simple: Don't kick the students. I couldn't agree more. My view is that you assaulted one of your students. You were not in a sparring/teaching situation where he had the opportunity to defend himself. You were not teaching how to block. You are an adult with the responsibility for the safety of your student. You taught him nothing but your view that you have the right to kick students that irritate or disobey you. You also showed little self control, one of the tenets of Taekwondo. You don't have the communication skills to explain or inspire so you attack? Most people would call that bullying. The parent was right to question your motivation. I would have removed my child from the class and had a word with the police about your methods. During 8 years of training in Britain with my own instructor and here in Korea I have never seen an instructor strike a student to chastise him or her. It is not acceptable. If a student repeatedly disobeys you you can sit the child out of the class for a spell, speak to the parent or ultimately exclude them from your club. If you had wanted impress on the student the need to defend himself there are many ways. At my school in north London we repeatedly teach students the need for awareness of what is going on around them and keeping their guard up during drills, sparring and some warm ups. Holding up a floppy kick mitt repeatedly during the class and explaining that you will use it to tap them lightly on the head if they drop their guard usually gets the message across. Yours in Taekwondo Keiron Henderson 2nd Dan ILT Korea, Seoul. On 2/25/07, sidtkd@aol.com wrote: > > Simple: Don't kick the students. Teach through expertise > and inspiration. > This isn't Korea. > > > Sid >


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AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:43:37 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Teaching Methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have a question for the instructors on the list. Here is what happened. > Last Wednesday night I one of our new white belt students (who by the way > does not have a uniform yet and was just wearing workout cloths), was having > trouble keeping his hands out of his pockets. The second or third time I > asked him to take them out of his pocket I gave him a couple of quick light > kicks to the stomach while repeating myself, more messing around than > serious. Nothing hard at all, really just reinforcement about why a person > might not want there hands in their pockets in the middle of a martial arts > class. I have to agree with the father on this one. No matter what age you are teaching, kicking a student like this is bullying. Think about it. They view you as a master killer, and certainly there will be fear for them if you are actually pulling this kind of thing. Would you do this to someone at work? If you did it at my office, you'd probably be having a discussion with your supervisor about appropriate contact and respect for other employees. Has anyone read my report on Travis Maxson recently? http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd/travis.html He ran a club that relied on physical discipline to keep the students in line, and as a result his students expected physical abuse. That allowed him to get involved with a student in a very dangerous way. He thought it was courtship (or something like it) and she thought it was training (until he forced her to give him oral sex as a punishment). At his trial he still didn't really understand what he had done wrong. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison, 4 suspended. His victim had flashbacks for many years thereafter, and still hasn't returned to martial training (it has been ten years) although she was one of the most dedicated students I have ever seen. The reason I bring this up is that this case really drilled home for me the danger that faces physical education instructors. We have a great deal of physical contact with our students, their perceptions are very different from our own, and we have a great deal of power over them. That situation makes it very easy for someone to step over the line and get themselves into a LOT of trouble. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:36:04 -0800 From: "Raymond Navarro" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: method of teaching Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi and be blessed, Jason & Nicole Swanson. I read your comment and thought: it is your school and your desition on how to run your school so it is up to you. Also I beleive that it does not have nothing to do with the martial arts class not to have the hands in the pockets it realy is because being a martial arts class one needs to be either in the attention or ready or what ever position one as a student would be besides a tradition and you plasing your self in another persons position ask your self ´do I like to get hit being a new student just because I do not do something and would be just to get to get customed the suner to get my hands out of my pockets to get hit ?´ You have diferent options that are not nesesarilly hit that student just because he does not get his hands out of his pocket, there are other ways to achieve the result you want besides the best way to show power is no with violence but with humility and example. He will at the end point could have you as an example for life and respect you as an idol to fallow. He could leave your school and have the potential for the prospect future to your Academy and become one of the students you would want to have around. There is the posibility for you to get a law sut (sorry if my spelling is not to good) and why risk that just because being the teacher the student must do it even at the cost of injury or getting hurt ? No need at all much less having a posible student leave your school just because he does not have the custom to follow orders. Take care and be well. 5. teaching methods (Jason & Nicole Swanson) Message: 5 From: "Jason & Nicole Swanson" To: Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:54:25 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching methods Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for the instructors on the list. Here is what happened. Last Wednesday night I one of our new white belt students (who by the way does not have a uniform yet and was just wearing workout cloths), was having trouble keeping his hands out of his pockets. The second or third time I asked him to take them out of his pocket I gave him a couple of quick light kicks to the stomach while repeating myself, more messing around than serious. Nothing hard at all, really just reinforcement about why a person might not want there hands in their pockets in the middle of a martial arts class. Today, the father comes into class before it starts and tells me that his son said I kicked him for having his hands in the pockets and wanted to know if that was true. So, I said yes in fact it was true and that it was certainly not done in a malicious way but as a way to help get my point across. We had a little discussion about the whole thing and in the end the father's point was that he thought I was a bully and that he did not think my method of teaching was a very good way to teach kids respect which was why he signed his kid up in the first place. I then gave him a few thoughts from my perpective: that it is not respectful to put your hands in your pockets when you are supposed to be lining up to work with a partner and that it is a martial arts class and in fact what we do kick and punch in class. All that said, I didn't see the what happend as a big deal at all until the father came in. So the question is who thinks I was out of line and need to change my evil ways and who agrees with me? _____________________________________________________________ Get a web-based email for life now ---> http://mail.hapkidokr.org --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Teaching methods Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:08:00 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net After reading the posts presented here on this subject...first let me say that I respect everyones opinion....it leaves me with only one thought....WOW HAVE TIMES CHANGED!!! I think Mark and I are on the same page with our training...but I will say that I don't train anyone under the basic ages of 13 to 14, and I will only train them if their parents are there....so I am not in tune with how the young uns are treated these days....when I was a tot GM Y.J. Chung used to carry a wiffle ball bat and fix our stances with a quick swat from the bat....he never called any young boy by their name....he would simple call you boy....I was "boy" for many years....did I cry about it...nope...did it cause me any undo stress...nope...did I go home and cry to my daddy and mommy...nope...IMHO I think everyone is a little too sensitive these days...it is like everyone is waiting for someone to do something wrong to them instead of just learning and going about their business... Michael Tomlinson ps...there are no pockets on purple spandex....something that might help... _________________________________________________________________ Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as fast as 1 year http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116 --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] teaching methods Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:43:41 -0600 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Best post on this subject, yet. Hands down. To me its just another sign of our overly sensitive, thin skimmed, politically correct society. Oh, for God's sake...don't kick someone at a karate/TKD class!!! Our society is spoiled and soft...kids today are raised on video games and Doritos. Martial arts and organized sports is one of the last places where a person can go through a "trial by fire" experience in a socially acceptable manner, and reap some of the benefits that such an experience can impart. Tell Dad that ballet classes are down the street...this is martial arts and some of the tougher chicks in class may be too rough for his son to play with. Craig "Don't Look at Me Like That" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:50:06 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Weight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Wellers I agree with you, however in the last fight my fighter did fight at 170lbs and he fought a man that was about 185 and yes it was a hard weight thing to try and over come, so we just dropped him to 145lbs knowing his opponent would be doing the same, so the fight is fair. I wish it were more honest but its not a perfect world we live in so we must adapt. JC _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.  http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Belt cutting Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:25:27 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My first instructor told us that his instructor would make his students fight at one belt level higher than they were so that they'd face tougher competition. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tkdsid@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Belt cutting Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 06:50:34 EST In New York,if not elsewhere, many Masters have instructed their student competitors to enter competition at one belt lower than they actually have. This allows them to fight less experienced students and are given an edge. If I hadn't seen that I would not have believed it. Why not avoid all the trouble and just buy the trophy!!! Every time I think I've seen the worst I'm never surprised to find someone doing something even more awful. Sid


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:13:50 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Weight / belt cutting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC said: ".its not a perfect world we live in so we must adapt." To quote Darwin: "It is not the strongest species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change." Clint Eastwood as "Gunny" in Heartbreak Ridge: ".You improvise. You adapt. You overcome." Sun Tzu, The Art of War: "So, a military force has no constant formation, water has no constant shape: the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius." No matter what time in history we find ourselves, it is the hand of the true warrior that deals out justice. With out rigorous training, a moral code and the stewardship of man, we are just walking weapons. We gauge ourselves by attending tournaments and breaking wood or concrete. To go to a tournament and participate at a level below yours teaches you nothing but dishonor. To go to a tournament and participate at a level above yours is the path of the warrior. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:08:57 -0800 From: "Martial Arts Seminars" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Technical Update and Level 1 Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Technical Update and Level 1 Seminar Offered March 10-11 February 23, 2007 USA Taekwondo Gold Medal Martial Arts Center in Foster City, Calif., will be offering two upcoming courses for coaches. A 2007 Technical Update course will be held on Saturday, March 10 at 3:00 p.m., and a Level 1 course will be held at 9:00 a.m. on Sunday, March 11. The presenter is 1992 Olympic gold medalist Herb Perez. Gold Medal Martial Arts Center is located at 969-B Edgewater Blvd., Foster City, Calif., phone: 650-286-9116. ================ 2007 Technical Coach Update Seminar Foster City, CA 2007 Technical update $100.00 CHOOSE PROGRAM SUMMARY & BACKGROUND CIDP SUMMARY *Coach Seminar Registration is separate from Event Coach Registration. Coaches must register for a coach credential online in order to coach at any 2007 event. In 2007, the CIDP will offer three different seminars that include the addition of the Level II module sets. Below are the offered seminars and the length of each course: • 2007 Technical Update (3 hours) • Level I – Introducing Sport TKD (8 hours) • Level II – Developing TKD Coaches (12 hours total broken into 4 module sets) In order to coach from the chair at a 2007 USAT event, ALL COACHES must attend EITHER the 2007 Technical Course, the Level I Seminar or a Level II Module. The 2007 Technical Update is 3 hours in length and offered at each USAT event. In addition, in order to coach in the World Class 14-17 year old Black Belt and Senior Black Belt divisions, one must be a Level I or Level II Coach. The 2007 Technical Update is the prelude module set to the Level II – Developing TKD Coaches. What Course Do I Take? Current Associate Coaches must take one of the following in order to coach at a 2007 USAT Event: • 2007 Technical Update (Not allowed to coach World Class 14-17 Black Belts or Senior Black Belts), or • Level I Seminar Current Level 1 Coaches must take one of the following in order to coach at a 2007 USAT Event: • 2007 Technical Update, or • Level II Seminar If a coach did not take and Associate Coach Seminar or a Level I Seminar in 2006, to coach at a 2007 USAT event, they must take one of the following: • 2007 Technical Update (Not allowed to coach World Class 14-17 Black Belts or Senior Black Belts), or • Level I Seminar Level 1 March 10th, 2007 3 - 6 pm Gold Medal Martial Arts 969-B Edgewater Blvd Foster City, CA 94404 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest