Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 16:02:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #78 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Ray Terry on replica watches............ (George Peters) 2. Re: Teaching Methods (Jeremy Anderson) 3. Breaking Horse (Ron Johnstone) 4. Re: Teaching Methods (michael tomlinson) 5. April 13-15 in Crestview, FL (Thomas Gordon) 6. RE: Teaching Methods (Thomas Gordon) 7. Leader of the Pack (Gordon) 8. 5 Tips for Dealing with a Disruptive Student (Gordon) 9. RE: Leader of the Pack (michael tomlinson) 10. 'breaking horse' ?? (Donald) 11. 'breaking horse' ?? (Ron Johnstone) 12. Breaking Horse (Gordon) 13. Breaking Horse (Gordon) 14. RE: April 13-15 in Crestview, FL (Garrett DeWitt) 15. Breaking Horse (Ron Johnstone) 16. Re: Teaching Methods (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 04:30:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry on replica watches............ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, No problem if they are Korean replica watches though, is there Sir?:) Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 06:15:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching Methods To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with Jye that discipline is vital. And it's the parents that don't teach their kids discipline at home that have the biggest problem with us as MA instructors teaching them discipline in the dojang. In my experience teaching kids, it's really not *how* you discipline that's the issue, but just that you *do* discipline them. I watch younger instructors struggle to control groups as small as 4-6, yet I've managed much larger groups without a single push-up or harsh word. Discipline isn't about spanking or punishment of any sort (though those can be useful tools if done properly). It's about setting boundries, communicating expectations and consequences, and follow-through. The biggest mistake I see with MA instructors teaching kids (and parents raising them!) is the instructor being more interested in making the kids happy and/or wanting the kids to like them rather than understanding the instructors' role as an example and instructor *first*. Who cares if the kids like you or not? We're not there to be their friends. If that's your goal, then the kids will walk all over you. And, ironically enough, if you focus on discipline, the kids end up loving you anyway. Jeremy Anderson. --- Jye nigma wrote: > Hi, sorry I'm just now getting to this email. I've been helping my > sistyer mover all week and I'M TIRED!!!! She had enough stuff to cover > everyone on this list...lol. I'm typing with my right hand and eating > twizzlers with my left so excuse any spellingf errors.... > > My point wasn't that all kids need spanking, but that society is > slowly moving towards rules that favor unruly kids. The first strike is > no spanking, the next will be no verbal correction, and finally parent's > will be very limited in how they are permitted to discipline their kids. > which means that all those in favor of these things will not discipline > their kids and therefore weont like when someone else does.... for > example a MA insttructor who uses exercises like push ups for > discipline. > > Now on a side note, I realize different races raise their chuildren in > different ways, but as a black child the discipline issued out from the > patrents was the foundation on which respect, ethicvs, etc are > developed. So that meant strict rules spasnkings and all that. In other > words a parent who disciples their child understands the need to do so, > and will have proper understanding of how and why certain types of > discipline are used, and will have no problem when someone like an teacher makes their child do pushups for misbehaving. It's the parents > who don't discipline their children that are a problem. I watch super > nanny sometimes and shake my head. kids cussin at their parents, hitting > their parents and disobeying, etc. Just think of all the parents in > AMerica that have this problem but don't do anything about it, those > children grow up having serious problems. > > Jye > > > Jye > > > aus.Steinberger@physik.uni-muenchen.de> wrote: > Hi Jye, > > > the african american community, it was a normal thing to get spanked > and > > very rare to speak out against your parents, but nowadays, I'm seeing > young > > brothers and sisters disrespect their parents, and elders and what > not. So > > it comes as no surprise that parents would get all bent out of shape > if you > > did that. They probably allow their child to do anything they want to > do. > > But that has nothing to do with spanking or not. Spanking is definitly > not > necessary to educate children or for students. > > It is more a matter of keeping them in their limits, and doing it at > right > time. If you miss the opportunity to set the limits, its very hard to > revert. > Those guys who miss regularly this opportunity need spanking, and be > sure, > they will loose on the shorter or longer run. > > Sincerly, > Klaus > > -- > Klaus Steinberger Beschleunigerlaboratorium > Phone: (+49 89)289 14287 Am Coulombwall 6, D-85748 Garching, Germany > FAX: (+49 89)289 14280 EMail: Klaus.Steinberger@Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE > URL: http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~Klaus.Steinberger/ > > [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature > which had a name of smime.p7s] > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: [The_Dojang] Breaking Horse Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:07:06 -0500 From: "Ron Johnstone" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net see link attached http://www.ukta.com/images/gallery/pages/GM%20back%20kick%207%20boards_j pg.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:20 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Breaking Horse > Does anyone have any drawings / plans for building a traditional > "breaking horse". Or anyone who has one, might you be kind enough to > offer photos and dimensions please. peace 'aye. I'm not familiar with that term. What is a breaking horse? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching Methods Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:43:01 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, I feel you brother...IMHO it all boils down to establishing that you are the alpha pack leader and from then on things are easier...the problem arises when kids are let go with no ramifications or consequences and then it is an unfortunate natural reaction for them to establish themselves as the alpha pack leader in your home....SOMEONE is gonna be the alpha pack leader in your home...it is only natural...when you see kids out of control and doing disrespectful things it is because they are jockiing for the alpha role even though they don't even know that's what they are doing....consistency, consequences, and modeling of correct behavior can fix this stuff....BUT...if they have been let run wild so to speak it gets worse at first until the parent can reestablish themselves as that alpha leader again..... Michael Tomlinson >From: Jye nigma >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching Methods >Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 17:19:18 -0800 (PST) > >Hi, sorry I'm just now getting to this email. I've been helping my sistyer >mover all week and I'M TIRED!!!! She had enough stuff to cover everyone on >this list...lol. I'm typing with my right hand and eating twizzlers with my >left so excuse any spellingf errors.... > > My point wasn't that all kids need spanking, but that society is slowly >moving towards rules that favor unruly kids. The first strike is no >spanking, the next will be no verbal correction, and finally parent's will >be very limited in how they are permitted to discipline their kids. which >means that all those in favor of these things will not discipline their >kids and therefore weont like when someone else does.... for example a MA >insttructor who uses exercises like push ups for discipline. > > Now on a side note, I realize different races raise their chuildren in >different ways, but as a black child the discipline issued out from the >patrents was the foundation on which respect, ethicvs, etc are developed. >So that meant strict rules spasnkings and all that. In other words a parent >who disciples their child understands the need to do so, and will have >proper understanding of how and why certain types of discipline are used, >and will have no problem when someone like an do pushups for misbehaving. It's the parents who don't discipline their >children that are a problem. I watch super nanny sometimes and shake my >head. kids cussin at their parents, hitting their parents and disobeying, >etc. Just think of all the parents in AMerica that have this problem but >don't do anything about it, those children grow up having serious problems. > > Jye > > > Jye > > >aus.Steinberger@physik.uni-muenchen.de> wrote: > Hi Jye, > > > the african american community, it was a normal thing to get spanked and > > very rare to speak out against your parents, but nowadays, I'm seeing >young > > brothers and sisters disrespect their parents, and elders and what not. >So > > it comes as no surprise that parents would get all bent out of shape if >you > > did that. They probably allow their child to do anything they want to >do. > >But that has nothing to do with spanking or not. Spanking is definitly not >necessary to educate children or for students. > >It is more a matter of keeping them in their limits, and doing it at right >time. If you miss the opportunity to set the limits, its very hard to >revert. >Those guys who miss regularly this opportunity need spanking, and be sure, >they will loose on the shorter or longer run. > >Sincerly, >Klaus > >-- >Klaus Steinberger Beschleunigerlaboratorium >Phone: (+49 89)289 14287 Am Coulombwall 6, D-85748 Garching, Germany >FAX: (+49 89)289 14280 EMail: Klaus.Steinberger@Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE >URL: http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~Klaus.Steinberger/ > >[demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature >which had a name of smime.p7s] >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > >--------------------------------- >8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 --__--__-- Message: 5 Cc: recipient list not shown: ; Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:01:12 -0700 From: Thomas Gordon Subject: [The_Dojang] April 13-15 in Crestview, FL Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have received some emails and phone calls about our upcoming event and a typo. Gotta love typos... Again, apologize for the slow replies, my father has been in the hospital. He's out now. He complained about my driving and asked if "I needed to be taken down" so he's obviously feeling better and back to his old self. He'll be 77 this year and gave us a good scare. Anyway, the actual deadline for the early bird discount is postmarked registration by March 15. Grand Master Hwang (ITF) and Grand Master Timmerman (NKMAA/WKF) will both be here along with about a dozen master level instructors to lead seminars all weekend. If you have any questions, call me at 850-682-0720 or drop me an email at tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com. More information at www.SouthEastMA.com or on our website at www.GordonMartialArts.com Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:01:23 -0700 From: Thomas Gordon Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Teaching Methods To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've been away much lately due to events I had already promised I would attend and a sickness in the family. Apologize for jumping in on this late. For those of us that are instructors, the intent is to instruct. You can't do that if the student quits. Every time a student leaves class, they are one step closer to quitting or one step closer to their next goal. That goal may be a jump kick, correct roll, being able to keep their head up when being spoken to, next ranking, etc. As instructor's, we can't help the students learn to defend themselves and be better people if we run them off with antiquated ways of yesterday. There is a happy middle ground where the instructor is not baby sitting nor being overbearing in their instructional methods. Like most things in life, moderation is the key. Many times I find these overbearing instructors use martial arts to compensate for their own personal and/or professional failures. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:01:50 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Leader of the Pack Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Right on Mr. Tomlinson! Hoo-haw! Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:05:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] 5 Tips for Dealing with a Disruptive Student Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This on line article is about "Lil Dragons" but applies to all ages. The fist tip hit home with me. Woke me up. http://martialarts.about.com/od/martialartsbusiness/a/disruptive.htm Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Leader of the Pack Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:15:23 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Gordon, Being a high school teacher I use these concepts in my classroom everyday...and they work naturally.....it really is what the underlying principle is...sometimes people think too much....well uhhh...not me anyway.. ..Michael Tomlinson >From: "Gordon" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Leader of the Pack >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:01:50 -0600 > >Right on Mr. Tomlinson! Hoo-haw! > >Gordon Okerstrom >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Donald" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:27:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] 'breaking horse' ?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sir, Like Master Terry, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. But if you mean some kind of contraption to hold boards for breaking, I seem to recall sketches and a photo or two of this species of animal toward the beginning of Gen. Choi's Encyclopedia. Hope this helps. pilseung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: [The_Dojang] 'breaking horse' ?? Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:19:40 -0500 From: "Ron Johnstone" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Don - Many thanks for taking the time to post a response, and yes, you are correct about what I am referring to. I have photos which I printed from WWW, but frankly I am a hopeless handyman and I was really hoping someone better might have, or be able to help me produce plans and dimensions which I can take to a carpenter to build. Ron Johnstone -----Original Message----- From: Donald [mailto:yongkal@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:27 PM To: dojang_digest Subject: [The_Dojang] 'breaking horse' ?? Dear Sir, Like Master Terry, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. But if you mean some kind of contraption to hold boards for breaking, I seem to recall sketches and a photo or two of this species of animal toward the beginning of Gen. Choi's Encyclopedia. Hope this helps. pilseung, Don Ross _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:25:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Breaking Horse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Johnstone, there was a board holding machine on display at the last MA Supershow in Vegas. I'll try to find the manufacturer. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:36:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Breaking Horse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I found a couple of sites but they're not the one I saw at the show. Gordon Okerstrom http://www.ronsbusiness.com/invent5.html http://www.martialartssupermarket.com/index.cfm?action=showProd &subid=212 http://www.superiormartialarts.com/cgi-bin/uniform/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=ENTER &thispage=boardholders.html&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!&affiliate=889 --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Garrett DeWitt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] April 13-15 in Crestview, FL Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:11:59 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Gordon I thank you for the informational post on your upcoming April 07 Korean Martial Arts Event. You have pulled together an outstanding group of individuals for this event Sir. I also sincerely hope that your Father is well/healthy and remains this way for many, many years. Regards. Garrett >From: Thomas Gordon >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >CC: recipient list not shown: ; >Subject: [The_Dojang] April 13-15 in Crestview, FL >Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:01:12 -0700 > >I have received some emails and phone calls about our upcoming event and a >typo. Gotta love typos... > >Again, apologize for the slow replies, my father has been in the hospital. >He's out now. He complained about my driving and asked if "I needed to be >taken down" so he's obviously feeling better and back to his old self. >He'll be 77 this year and gave us a good scare. > >Anyway, the actual deadline for the early bird discount is postmarked >registration by March 15. Grand Master Hwang (ITF) and Grand Master >Timmerman (NKMAA/WKF) will both be here along with about a dozen master >level instructors to lead seminars all weekend. If you have any questions, >call me at 850-682-0720 or drop me an email at >tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com. > >More information at www.SouthEastMA.com or on our website at >www.GordonMartialArts.com > >Thomas Gordon >Florida >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01 --__--__-- Message: 15 Subject: [The_Dojang] Breaking Horse Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 15:18:11 -0500 From: "Ron Johnstone" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gordon - Thanks for this. All very good products, but the maximum they can hold is 5 boards. The traditional breaking horse design, used extensively in Europe, is adjustable for up to 7-8 boards normally, and also has a reverse side for brick breaking. Ron Johnstone -----Original Message----- From: Gordon [mailto:gordon@baes.com] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 2:36 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Breaking Horse I found a couple of sites but they're not the one I saw at the show. Gordon Okerstrom http://www.ronsbusiness.com/invent5.html http://www.martialartssupermarket.com/index.cfm?action=showProd &subid=212 http://www.superiormartialarts.com/cgi-bin/uniform/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=E NTER &thispage=boardholders.html&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!&affiliate=889 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching Methods To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To build off of what you said. Someone, needs to step in and give the child discipline that the parents aren't giving them. From my own personal experience, I've noticed what happens when a child has a parent that let's them do whatever it is they want. My son's mom was a child who's mother allowed her kids to do whatever they wanted, and to this day they resent her for that. Our lives are so different. See, I used to get my butt torn up....switches, belts, extension cords etc. Now even though my parents may have made mistakes like spanking out of anger, I still was well behaved. My mother could take any of us anywhere, and NOT have to worry. The reason why was not because we feared our parents, but because we respected our parents and their rules. First the boundaries are set, then the penalties are explained, then you properly whoop that butt if they disobey. I think this is what happened somewhere along the line. I truly believe that some parents who don't discipline their children in any way, explode on their child and then ABUSE them, and that's where all the don't spank your children stuff comes from. So the truth of the matter is, either the parent is gonna be responsible and do their job as a parent or someone else will...meaning police. I was watching The Tavis Smiley special "State of the Black Union" and there was a speaker who hit it on the nose....(I'm paraphrasing) she says something like. We used to be able to spank our children and discipline them, but society comes in and says if you spank them you'll get in trouble. Teachers used to spank the children and they did away with that, Now they're saying that you can't verbally tell your children that you're spank them because that's considered a threat, so children raise up against their parents and verbally abuse them and in some cases physically abuse them, so parents are afraid of the children, teachers are afraid of the children, and the only people not afraid of anything are the children. So you take children who aren't afraid of anyone, and they have no discipline and you got a major problem. Jye michael tomlinson wrote: Jye, I feel you brother...IMHO it all boils down to establishing that you are the alpha pack leader and from then on things are easier...the problem arises when kids are let go with no ramifications or consequences and then it is an unfortunate natural reaction for them to establish themselves as the alpha pack leader in your home....SOMEONE is gonna be the alpha pack leader in your home...it is only natural...when you see kids out of control and doing disrespectful things it is because they are jockiing for the alpha role even though they don't even know that's what they are doing....consistency, consequences, and modeling of correct behavior can fix this stuff....BUT...if they have been let run wild so to speak it gets worse at first until the parent can reestablish themselves as that alpha leader again..... Michael Tomlinson --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest