Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:48:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #124 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Fw: Physics and Martial arts (Jeremy Callner) 2. Master Alain Burrese's HKD seminar (Mark Gajdostik) 3. Last word on JP, if I may (dugy01) 4. RE: Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 5. RE: P DIDDY (Sprite) 6. RE: RE: Twisting punch (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 7. RE: Spiral Punch (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 8. RE: Twisting punch (Ferdinand Perez) 9. RE: RE: Twisting Punch (Joseph Cheavens) 10. RE: Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido (Joseph Cheavens) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Jeremy Callner" To: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:21:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fw: Physics and Martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Everybody, We all seem to agree that a twisting punch with good form properly delivered is better than the exact same punch without the twist. Our own experiences support this fact so much more than our vague anecdotal memories from physics class. I don't buy any of these explanations. Jeremy Callner --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mark Gajdostik" To: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:34:30 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Alain Burrese's HKD seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, After a long and advil-filled drive, I'm back home from the Burrese Boise Seminar. Master Burrese once again showed why he is the MAN! Should any of you have the opportunity to attend his seminars, I highly recommend it. I brought a student with me who, after reading stuff on the website (www.burrese.com) and my copy of Hard Knocks, got all fired up and came to pick me up for the drive 2 hours early (aka 4am). Something I sometimes take for granted was pointed out to me by my student. He loved the level of pain from seminar's techniques, but even more, was impressed how Master Burrese demonstrated the pain on the attendees with such control that nobody was injured. My student comes from a knuckle-dragger corrections environment where such injury is common. He couldn't wait to apply some of the pain on his wife and kids when he returned home! (don't worry, they are all my students and love how the pain tickles) This year was cool in that I actually got to use the cane techniques we learned in a realistic way as my foot was trashed and sore. Very nice. Anyway, thank you again Master Burrese for an excellent day of training...I look forward to returning next year! Also thanks to Mr. Danny Rowell and Master Sutter for arranging the whole deal. So, until next year, I will have to pass the time with some of the new Lock-On DVDs from Alain. Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts 503-640-8400 www.TNTma.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "dugy01" To: Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 01:55:19 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Last word on JP, if I may Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sirs, It was my post that initiated the J Pelligrini rants.... I only wrote what was on the flyer that you would get if you were to send for it. But, if I may, I'd ljust like to add that although I am overweight, I think I carry myself fairly well for my size and age (59). What I have learned from CH is alot more than I knew beforehand. I knew nothing and have been in many fights. I am pleased with what I have learned in taking the classes now for over 2 years (with a 6 month absence due to a broken wrist) and feel more assured of myself and I think this is a main point in learning any art. As I near towards my black belt status within the next year, I will become even more so. So in short , JP may have some shortcomings, but as a new student on martial arts, I am well pleased with my advancement in this field of his art . I just wanted to add these few paragraphs about J Pelligrini's Combat Hapkido. Thanks for listening! DougM --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:38:10 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi JC I know that you said that you are a MDK instructor. I'm not sure how that differs from HKD but could you say if MDK is good for GJJ or is HKD better complimented to GJJ. Thank you -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] Sent: 09 April 2007 15:44 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido Ray As a Moo Duk Kwan Instructor and a student of Rorion Gracie's oldest son Rener Gracie. I can tell you from experiance that What you see on the you tube clip is accurrate in every since. I know how to kick and puch to the head. Rener can take me down at will. Once on the ground, if you do not know GJJ you will get submitted. I have seen some of the challange matches in recent times. They alway turn out the same. I watched a TKD Blackbelt guy get submitted 3 times after challanging Rener in California, I watched a Wrestler get submitted that out weighed Rener by 50lbs when he challanged him during the G.R.A.P.L.E. course last December. I personally have rolled with him many times, Its the real deal. The problem is some still think they can armchair quarterback, Roll with one of the Gracies then say you could have puched or kicked JC _________________________________________________________________ MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.  Enter to win today. http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Sprite" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] P DIDDY Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:43:07 +1000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I read Craig's interesting little rant it reminded me of an article I read recently by Martin Rooney titled "Training Is Where Your Life Happens". Check this out at http://www.elitefts.com/documents/life_happens.htm ***************************************************************************** ************** From: "Stovall, Craig" "" Step 1. Everybody take the paper off of the walls, the cloth from around their waists, and go build a big bonfire. Because that's about all those certificates and belts are worth...kindling......... I train for the pure love of what I do. I don't care who likes it, I don't care what the 13 yo 8th degree TKD black belts are doing over on main street, and at the end of the day I value people based upon what they know and can do (character issues aside for a moment). And to find that out you have to get on the mat with them. "" --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Twisting punch Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:19:21 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was round 3. you tube Tommy Hearns. His right hand was lethal. I've studied it. He displays 5 out 6 principles of power out lined by Gen. Choi. Correct breathing was is the only factor that one cannot really test by video! Peter -----Original Message----- From: Howard Spivey [mailto:howardspivey@verizon.net] Sent: 19 April 2007 02:11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Twisting punch -----Original Message----- From: jay.oconnor@comcast.net [mailto:jay.oconnor@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:58 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Twisting punch "The old time boxers recommended twisting/turning the punches over because the idea was that the knuckles would grab the skin on contact and have a higher propensity to cause a cut. I've yet to see any double blind, clinical studies to prove this, but I usually listen to the old timers as a practice." Thomas Hearns was very good at this. Just think about the terrible cut he opened up over Marvin Hagler's eye in, I think, the first round of their fight. Would have been a fight-stopper at some point, which led Hagler to throw caution to the wind, and resulted in three (or four, can't recall) of the best rounds of boxing I've ever seen in my life. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:03:12 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Spiral Punch Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Simon Bland already pointed out that the spiral punch = double power is pretty much BS. Thanks Simon! I've heard of using the twist punch to cut skin as well, but with the proviso that the rotation there occurs as you hit the target, not before. Other possible considerations on why we rotate the punch rather than do a vertical punch are: (1) align forearm bones for greater strength of our bone structure, (2) turn knuckles to better position for striking (although the Scientific American article on punching showed that the hand greatly deforms when striking a hard target anyways), (3) allows you to drop your lats and get more of your body behind the hit, (4) spiraling makes it harder to track and jam the arm in defense. Comments? Dakin dakinburdick@iupui.edu --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Ferdinand Perez" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Twisting punch Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:20:19 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, The technique of twisting/turning/snapping the wrist at the very last second is the proper manner in which to execute a punch; and it should be taught in this manner. If not, I believe you're denying your punch the ability to penetrate the intended target. Fernando. ----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:27 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Twisting punch I provided the source video clip titled spiral force because I probably slaughtered their explanation. Jye http://youtube.com/watch?v=T8X0--IoyEg jay.oconnor@comcast.net wrote: Same here. I've heard about the twist motion of the punch to add to the impact, but never head it explained like Jye was saying. Take care, Jay -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com > Greetings Jye, > I don't know about the deep penetrating energy of such a punch, but I > was taught that the twisting motion adds velosity to the impact. Being in > the engineering field myself, that makes much more sense. > Victor > > > > > kingjye@yahoo.com > > 04/18/2007 02:08 To > PM the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, > itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com > cc > Please respond to > the_dojang@martia Subject > lartsresource.net [The_Dojang] Twisting punch > > > > > > > > > > > Hey everyone. I saw a TKd video called Taekwondo Revolution of Kicking. In > my opinion the video was poorly done overall. There were some good elements > to it, but overall it was a poor video. One thing I noticed on there that I > had never heard of before was the concept of spiral energy to penetrate the > human body. I'm paraphrasing... > > Basically, they said that the human body is composed of x amount of > water, and to strike it with a straight punch (as in boxing I suppose) > would cause the energy of the striker to disperse, whereas a punch with a > twisting motion (as in a corkscrew punch) delivers a spiral type energy > that penetrates deeply. Has anyone ever heard of this? if so is this true? > > Jye > > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Twisting Punch Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:21:27 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "If your punch penetrates 2 inches into someone's gut before stopping, that is going to deliver less energy than if you only penetrate say 1/4th of an inch, because the time elapsing between impact and the punch coming to rest is significantly shorter." "As far as penetrating power, you generally want less penetration, not more, so that seems a little suspect too." This flies in the face of all imperical evidence that I have observed. Someone hitting me full speed but stopping a 1/4" into my dermal layer does not transfer nearly as much force as someone punching a good 4" to 6" inches into my body. As for the spiral vs non-rotating punch (they didn't say reverse punch vs jab - BTW, I rotate my punch in my jab, too), I think their point with the water content thing is BS, too. I think it has more to do with power generation in terms of how your bones and joints line up through full range of the punching motion. Rotating your punch enables one to put more force behind a punch than non-ratational motion. As an experiment, put your fist up against a wall with your arm chambered to punch and try pushing yourself back from the wall while leaning into the wall without rotating your fist. Try it again while rotating your fist. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Simon Bland" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Twisting Punch Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:23:21 -0500 The relevant variables, from a physics perspective, are: 1) The mass involved in the punch. 2) The speed of the punch. 3) The time between impact and the punch coming to a stop. 4) The quality of the surface being struck - rigid or flexible? Striking with a reverse punch allows you to use more of your mass in the strike than a straight jab. This assumes good stance and good form, of course. The speed of the strike is variable to the martial artist - some punch faster than others. The time between impact and the punch stopping is relevant because it determines the dispersal of energy to the target. If your punch penetrates 2 inches into someone's gut before stopping, that is going to deliver less energy than if you only penetrate say 1/4th of an inch, because the time elapsing between impact and the punch coming to rest is significantly shorter. Quality of the surface is relevant to energy delivery. Something with a lot of flexibility is going to convert the force you deliver into radiating vectors from impact, and into heat via friction, so your total strike is less damaging. This is why a punch to the collarbone is more effective than a punch to the stomach. The bit about spiral energy and about the percentage of water content in the human body strikes me as pretty much BS. The reverse punch is stronger than a jab because there is more mass behind the strike, due to how you twist into it with your whole body. The relative hydration of your target couldn't be less relevant IMO. As far as penetrating power, you generally want less penetration, not more, so that seems a little suspect too. Cheers Simon _________________________________________________________________ MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.  Enter to win today. http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.  Enter to win today. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:52:59 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm not JC, don't play him on TV, and did not spend the night in a Holiday Inn Express, but I have a few thoughts on this. Mu Duk Kwan is the kwan found by Hwang Kee shortly after Korean independence from Japan. It is one of the kwan that split over unification of the Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, Subak Do, organizations and kwan into what became Tae Kwon Do and the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association in the 1960s (Ji Do Kwan was the other kwan that fractured over this). So, most Mu Duk Kwan schools tend to be more "traditional" in their approach to MA and less sport oriented than most TKD schools (please notice the qualifiers "tend to" and "most" before flaming me fellow TKDists or sport oriented MDKists).  As to which would compliment GJJ/BJJ better, MDK or HKD, I'd say both. I haven't done HKD except for some cross training with the HKD guys, but I have studied some Aikido, done TKD for many years, and am currently studying GJJ under Phil Cardella, who is a Relson Gracie black belt and MMA fighter, here in Austin.  http://www.austinjj.com/ My TKD isn't really applicable in GJJ training, except for ballance and timing in the stand-up grappling before we go to the mat in sparring, in addition to the watered down judo applications that I learned as part of my TKD hoshinsul curriculum that I am occasionally able to pull off. However, I think that it most compliments the GJJ well in terms of giving me a non-grappling/striking based skill set. My Aikido training comes in more handy a bit in terms of controlling my opponents ballance in the stand up grappling (would probably be even more effective if my Aikido was better than 1st kyu level - I've only been able to use a pure Aikido throw or takedown on anyone twice now), but comes in more handy in terms of grips (i.e. grabbing and conrolling your opponents wrists or uniform or countering their grabs) and occasionaly using wrist manipulations to move their arm in to position for a submission (e.g. Kimuras, omaplatas, key locks, reverse arm bars).   If you haven't studied any GJJ/BJJ before, I highly recommend giving it a try. Hope this helps. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:38:10 +0100 Hi JC I know that you said that you are a MDK instructor. I'm not sure how that differs from HKD but could you say if MDK is good for GJJ or is HKD better complimented to GJJ. Thank you -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] Sent: 09 April 2007 15:44 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rorian Gracie VS Hapkido Ray As a Moo Duk Kwan Instructor and a student of Rorion Gracie's oldest son Rener Gracie. I can tell you from experiance that What you see on the you tube clip is accurrate in every since. I know how to kick and puch to the head. Rener can take me down at will. Once on the ground, if you do not know GJJ you will get submitted. I have seen some of the challange matches in recent times. They alway turn out the same. I watched a TKD Blackbelt guy get submitted 3 times after challanging Rener in California, I watched a Wrestler get submitted that out weighed Rener by 50lbs when he challanged him during the G.R.A.P.L.E. course last December. I personally have rolled with him many times, Its the real deal. The problem is some still think they can armchair quarterback, Roll with one of the Gracies then say you could have puched or kicked JC _________________________________________________________________ MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.  Enter to win today. http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference today. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest