Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 02:58:37 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #147 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Unfairness in the dojang (sidtkd@aol.com) 2. MMA by the unqualified (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Re: Re: Unfairness in the dojang (Thomas Gordon) 4. Instructor's Fees - Too Much? (E. Montgomery) 5. Growing pains (Gordon Okerstrom) 6. TSD Instructor Dies (UNCLASSIFIED) (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 7. RE: Instructor's Fees - Too Much? (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:44:16 -0400 From: sidtkd@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Unfairness in the dojang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am sympathetic to Doug and so many countless orthers that feel they are the victims of unfair dojang practice. I've written about the abuses many times from the vantage point of paying for kukkiwon certificates and not getting them. There is much fraud in that regard. But unfair pricing is a whole other issue. If you enter a dojang without a contract, you really don't have much of a leg to stand on. On another note, so many students complain that when they hit brown or red belt they aren't being taught any longer but rather become a teaching assistant. That is unfair, because learning how to teach martial arts is an integral part of becoming a black belt. Keep in mind, ours is an unregulated art and as such we have no place to complain to. When you get your black belt...consider changing schools. Sid ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:32:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MMA by the unqualified Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dugy01 You have hit the nail on the head. This is happening all over the country. Prior to 1993 when the UFC began. Instructor taught as they learned from there instructor. Knowledge was passed down from Instructor to student, and although some people read books and bought video's to expand their training it was not nearly to the extent we see today. The UFC on spike TV has created an explosion of those instructors that want to offer MMA, but have not had qualified instruction in BJJ, GJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing, or even full contact. Most are instructors that have studied one particular traditional martial art such as (Hapkido, TKD, SBD, TSD, etc.) and want to cash in on the popularity of the UFC and Pride. Do to the popularity of MMA on TV they feel that they need to meet the demand and they go to a few seminars, or buy a few videos and begin teaching. Before I continue however, let me say that this is not always the case but it seems to be the norm at this time in history. For example: I began training in 1979 in a small Kung Fu school in my local town. I stayed about 9 months. I then moved to a TKD School (WTF) and trained about 3 years. Then as a teenager with a car and a job. I got to choose what I wanted to do with out my parents involvment, so I left the TKD school and joined a Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan school now affiliated with the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc. That was 1983, I recieved my Cho Dan in 1989, and then my E-Dan in 1992. I wanted to teach, so my instructor recommended me to test which I did and was awarded a Kyo Sa teaching certificate. I opend my first school in August 1992. I taught 2 days per week, and trained at my instructors schools 3 days per week. I was about that time that a man stopped in my school to visit. He was a 2nd degree black belt student of Pro. Wally Jay founder of the small circle Jui-Jitsu style. He had moved to Texas from Hawaii. We began to train together privately but after 7 years he moved. I had maintained my Moo Duk Kwan training and was now a 3rd dan. I began to teach a few of my more senior students some of the ground techniques from Small Circle Jui-Jitsu as seminars or clinics. I did not tell many people about my cross training becasue it was not as excepted as it is today. I had seen the UFC but it was not showing on spike TV and interest in that kind of training was not as sought after at least in my town. Then in 2000 I tested for Master instructor in the Moo Duk Kwan and Sa Bom certification. I continued to teach Moo Duk Kwan as traditionally as I knew how, and expose my senior students to Jui-Jitsu on a limited bases. Remember I had been training in Jui-Jitsu now for 8 years but had never even recieved the first belt. To me I did not feel qualified to teach anything but Tang Soo Do (now refered to as Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan. In 2005 I tested for 5 dan in the Moo Duk Kwan. I passed that 8 day test but still crossed training in Jui-jitsu began to seek out my original instructor. I found him in January 2006. He was no longer with the Wally Jay organization, but agreed to meet with me and evaluate my jui-jitsu. I had some self taught flaws but quickly fixed them and in May 2006 was awarded my Black Belt in Jui-Jitsu. You would think that I would be happy, but I felt that the standards between the Jui-Jitsu test and the Moo Duk Kwan test were not even close so I began to search for legitamate instruction in Jui-Jitsu. I joined the Gracie jui-Jitsu Academy and began training dirrectly under Rener Gracie. I train with him for a week about every 3 months, and in addition make seminars with UFC fighters when ever I can. I tell you all this because you need to have instruction from someone that has legitamate affiliation with a legitate organization known for its instruction and cretiability. I now teach a large school and have two sets of classes. My Moo Duk Kwan class which is very traditional and offeres very little in the way of ground fighting or MMA. Then I have my GJJ class that is all GJJ and MMA. I believe teaching MMA or ground fighting in a traditional class cheepens it. That is not to say MMA or ground fighting is bad becasue it is not. It just has its place Check this instructors history in Hapkido, Then check his history in the grappling arts (Jui-Jitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo etc.) Remeber that to be a good student in a traditional martial art, respect for instructor in a must. For MMA it seems that respect is not as important but crediablity should be. In the town where I live, I know all of the legitamate schools and instructors, most of which are TKD or Karate but they offer several programs like F.I.G.H.T or womens self-defense. The legitamate ones don't offer MMA or JJ. However there are a few that offer Jui-Jitsu and MMA with claims of rank, but in reality they are people that want the credit and the money but have not earned either. Of Course this is just my opinion JC _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:20:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Unfairness in the dojang From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Keep in mind, ours is an unregulated art and as such we have no place to complain to." Yes, we are regulated. No there isn't a professional licensing board but all businesses have laws against price gouging, city/county/state business licensing, etc. And there's the BBB and other business watchdogs. In fact, I'd venture to say we're TOO regulated. Anyone doubting that needs to open a business. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:20:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Montgomery" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Instructor's Fees - Too Much? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you are unhappy with the instructor, shop around for another school, sit in on classes and see what the instructors are like, note however, all schools have to make money - otherwise they close. If you are an upper belt and your instructor HAS to walk off the mat to answer the phone maybe you should be taking the class through basics while you wait for the instructor to return - rather than standing around (by the way, if my instructor is teaching, I'll go answer the phone or one of the parents will answer it and take a message). Teaching is a large part of the cirriculum for Black Belt in our school - teaching forces you to break down each movement and helps you understand techniques better. Plus when you start correcting other's mistakes, you are less likely to make them yourself... Finally, it took me almost 9 years to get my black belt, going 3 to 5 days a week 1 to 2 hours a day. It is one of the hardest things I have ever done and basically all it does is say now I am ready to start learning. It is the journey, not the destination. ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:37:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Growing pains Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Doug, I wish I was a brown belt again! That was a fun time in my life! You begin to do things you thought only those "gifted" athletes could do. Man! Sigh. Well, maybe I could just visit. : ) Though it's true that the higher rank tests in martial arts are further apart by design, that doesn't mean you cease training between them. Your black belt exam looms on the horizon! Most black belt exams are grueling, exhausting tests of your will, your stamina and character. Train, train train! Do the class work out with your students. Don't just teach and watch. Train. Out run them, out kick them, do more push-ups in the same amount of time you give them. If you have more than one class a night, take all the classes and improve yourself. Divide your class into teams and have team competitions with your students and you join one of the teams. Get back in there! Have fun with your students and class will take care of itself. Dive in! As to prices charged, Master Gordon is right on the money. No pun intended. If you want something and the price goes up, for whatever reason, it's your choice. Pay and train or don't pay and don't train. If you think the curriculum has changed, you can take that up with your instructor but, instructors don't alter their curriculum easily. Chances are good that he sweated long and hard over this for quite a while, probably loosing sleep over it, before making the changes. It sounds to me like he's trying to make you the best martial artist he can. He may have seen a hole in your training that he is trying to fill with this new ground fighting or, it could be as JC suggested and he's caught up in the UFC wave and feels that he needs it to compete with the surrounding schools. Ask him out to dinner and get him where he won't be distracted and talk with him. It sounds like you want the school and your instructor to succeed. I believe you will be a great instructor some day. Even if you don't want to now, it's in your blood all ready. -Can't avoid it ... TRAIN. : ) As to the phone being attended to before the students, Master Gordon is once again correct. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." If he looses the students he has now due to neglect, he'll be closed in a couple of months. We have a bunch of senior students that have been trained to answer the phones, questions from parents, sell merchandise and sign people up. This is our "Leadership Team". They have their own uniform that looks different from the rest of the school. It says leadership team on the back and their name below that. They have patches on their sleeves that tell others what they are trained for; office, sign-up, merchandise, first aid, safe place, C.P.R., etc. The Leadership Team is a compilation of some of the "founding fathers" of the dojang and some of the colored belt ranks that showed the initiative, drive and concern for the success of the school. The instructor's job is to instruct. When a parent stops the instructor on his way into the dojang, 90 percent of the time, a leadership team member interrupts them and says: "I can help you with that." There is still the line of people waiting to speak with the instructor outside his office between classes but, in time, most of these have their questions answered by leadership team members stopping and checking on them, finding the question, and answering it. If he is leaving the floor for the phone, I think the senior students should take this burden from him. It's obvious that he is doing it all. In a small or new school, the instructor is the owner, president, secretary, councilor, purchasing agent, advertising and promotions director and, oh yes, the teacher. He's probably looking to pay the bills and keep your school open. It may be that he has GREAT ambitions for your school and he wants this added or changed curriculum to open the door. Bottom line, it's a business and without cash flow, it fails. That's YOUR school closing. Join him in his dream to make your school great. -step up. I believe you should become pro-active. He's loosing the battle with perspective on priorities. Help him. Learn the ropes, AS HE WANTS THEM, and take this burden from your instructor. Instead of the fount of knowledge leaving the floor, you or some of the other seniors can leave the floor instead. You can take turns staying off the floor waiting for the phone to ring and use that time to clean for him or talk to the parents or sell merchandise, etc. Train some people to answer the phones and sign people up the way your instructor wants it done. Avoid training parents in this, as most of the time, their child comes WAY before the school. Take a message for those "personal" calls that are for the instructor only, get a name and a phone number and advise that the instructor is in class and will return their call at his earliest convenience. Let the teacher be confident that you won't let the prospective student get away and you will get your favorite instructor back. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:55:33 -0500 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Instructor Dies (UNCLASSIFIED) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I was greatly saddened to here of Rob Massaroni's death last week. I wish to send my condolences to any of his family, friends and students that may be a part of the DD. Mr. and now Master Massaroni was a member of the World Tang Soo Do Association, and I had the pleasure of sitting on his first Master's Candidate test a couple of years ago. He had just completed the requirements for his Master's Rank, and I believe Grandmaster Jae Chul Shin presented his family with his Masters Belt at the funeral on Friday. I also would like all of you to know that Mr. Russell Nevado, a senior sam dan, from the Jacksonville Florida area lost his life in an auto accident about 2 weeks ago. I know there are several martial artists on the DD from the Florida area and may know Russell and the Nevado family who runs a World Tang Soo Do Association school in Jacksonville. Russell was also a fantastic young man, and we will miss him greatly. My heart goes out to his family, and especially to his Mother and Father. Sorry to be so late, I am just now trying to catch up on DD's. Danny Dunn Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Instructor's Fees - Too Much? Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:49:17 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very Nice post IMHO....we have upper belts teach lower belts....in my day job teaching computer graphics in a specialized High School Academy I have the older students help the younger ones all the time.....in Education speak it's called "cooperative learning" and is a very important learning tool....when you can verbalize a technique or concept and teach it to someone else you are on your way to "really" learning \....agreed....if you aren't happy shop around...IMO if you are working out at a place you are very unhappy with it is just a matter of time until you get injured...why??? because your attention probably isn't in the right place....my old instructor Steve Mortel would see someone staring at the clock and tell them to stop working out.....at that point..as hard as we were going someone was gonna get hurt because their attention wasn't on the mat but off of the mat.... also...check yourself...is the problem you or your school....I don't know but run it thru your head...introspection is a very good thing.... Michael Tomlinson >From: "E. Montgomery" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Instructor's Fees - Too Much? >Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:20:42 -0700 (PDT) > >If you are unhappy with the instructor, shop around for another school, sit >in on classes and see what the instructors are like, note however, all >schools have to make money - otherwise they close. If you are an upper >belt and your instructor HAS to walk off the mat to answer the phone maybe >you should be taking the class through basics while you wait for the >instructor to return - rather than standing around (by the way, if my >instructor is teaching, I'll go answer the phone or one of the parents will >answer it and take a message). > >Teaching is a large part of the cirriculum for Black Belt in our school - >teaching forces you to break down each movement and helps you understand >techniques better. Plus when you start correcting other's mistakes, you >are less likely to make them yourself... > >Finally, it took me almost 9 years to get my black belt, going 3 to 5 days >a week 1 to 2 hours a day. It is one of the hardest things I have ever >done and basically all it does is say now I am ready to start learning. It >is the journey, not the destination. > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! >oneSearch: Finally, mobile search >that gives answers, not web links. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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