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Pil Seung!

Today's Topics:

   1. RE: camo belts (Rick Clark)
   2. RE: camo belts (Thomas Gordon)
   3. RE: RE: Dr. Kano (Joseph Cheavens)
   4. Re: Camo Belt (Lasich, Mark D.)
   5. RE: RE: Dr. Kano (Rick Clark)
   6. RE: camo belts (Rick Clark)
   7. Historians (Luther Veuleman)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:01:06 -0400
From: "Rick Clark" <rick.aodenkou@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] camo belts
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Hi Thomas,

>From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com]


> <snip>  What's the difference in giving
>the student a green piece of tap or another belt?  Either way they've still
>tested and likely paid for the testing.

There is no difference to an extent.  There is a cost difference to the
instructor who is giving out the belts or putting tape on the belt.  The
cost of the belt may be included in the price of the test fee and the
student never sees it as part of the fee.  But there can be hidden fees in
tests if school is a member of a larger organization.  They may have to
purchase the certificate from the association, a percentage or set fee may
be required for the association and perhaps the senior instructor of the
individual who runs the school.  Plus, if an instructor brings in other
instructors to sit on a grading board they will probably have to pay for
transportation, motel, food, and a bit extra for the instructor(s) time.  

>Some of you folks like to give your time for free or next to free as you
>work day jobs to make your house payment.  Bows to ya!  My local instructor
>does that and he's more a man than most men I've met.  As for us, my family
>gave up a good source of income, retirement, and medical benefits so my
>bride could work our school full time and give our students "full time job"
>attention and still be able to be a mother to our children and wife to me.

I have absolutely NO problem with individuals who run full time professional
schools. In fact if run properly I think they can be one of the greatest
assets to the martial arts community possible.  For example you get
professional school who markets and advertises and draws in students to
their club will increase the public awareness of the arts and will open up
the market.  A professional school will have to charge for their services
and if they do not have contracts for the students I think they are just
plain silly.  The instructor has to sign a contract to rent or purchase a
floor space.  They must contract for utilities and advertising, so how can
they operate a full time school on the "hope" that their students will walk
in the door with money in hand and pay on time, 12 months a year?

Instructors who run a martial arts school as a profession MUST treat it as a
business so that they can put food on the table and provide for their
family.  To assume that there were not professional instructors hundreds of
years ago is just not correct, there were.  For example, in Japan the daimyo
would have various instructors in the castle who would teach martial arts.
They even hired instructors to teach reading and mathematics  for the
samurai.  There is a book about the education system of the Tokugawa
Shogunate that is very interesting to read.  (I can get the exact title if
anyone is interested.)

But there can be a problem IF the professional schools are nothing more that
belt factories where kids (or adults) get rank just because they have paid
their fees, or if the quality of instruction is poor, or if the care and
concern of the instructor goes away once a contract has been signed.  But
that would be counterproductive because they would want to have a high
retention rate and increase the numbers of their students to increase their
bottom line.  It's well known that it is less expensive to keep your
customer base happy and purchasing from you than to seek out new customers
all the time.  

Now is that a problem for the non-commercial school if a commercial school
has several hundred student signed up on the books?  No in fact that can be
very good for the non-commercial school.  For example, look at how many
different restaurants there are in your city.  There are large ones that may
be expensive, there are chain restaurants, mom and pop, dinners, all kinds
of restaurants.  If you get people used to eating out then there is more
business for all, because people are accustomed to going out to eat.   The
more people who have a positive opinion of the martial arts and the value of
martial arts training then there will be a large customer base for all. 

So when a professional school advertises and creates interest in the martial
arts it creates interest not only for their school, but for non-commercial
schools AND even the other professional schools in their area.  Everyone
benefits when there is a greater interest in the martial arts in a
community.  Each person who comes into the martial arts does so for
different reasons and they have expectations that can change over time.  If
someone wants to have little Jane or Jimmy taught respect discipline
(whatever) they may want a professional school where there is a 6 day a week
training schedule with various classes being offered  in a professional
setting.  

But this may not fit the needs, desire, or financial ability of everyone.
So a YMCA that offers classes 2 or 3 times a week at a nominal fee may be
the best solution for that individual or family.  Or perhaps the individual
that is teaching the their basement with just a few students is what the
instructor and students wants.  Just because an instructor does not "teach"
professionally does not mean that they cannot "act" professionally.

The problem, at least in my opinion, is the too many instructors take the
view that if someone else has a school they are taking away potential
student from their club.  So you find instructors who run down their
competition in an effort to get the student signed up for their club.  It
would be much smarter, I think, for an instructor to say positive things
about others and keep the negatives to themselves.  In other words act like
a professional.  Can you imagine a doctor or lawyer badmouthing another in
their profession just to try to get another patient or client?  Who would
want to go to such a person? Or if a doctor gets a patient in that has the
need of something outside their expertise they don't try to treat that
patient they refer them to another doctor.  Same with lawyers.  So why
should it be different for a martial arts instructor?  If someone come into
your school and what they want does not fit with what you teach or how you
teach why should you not refer them out to another instructor or school?
You may not get that particular student signed up but then do you really
thing you would keep them if you were "selling" them classes for something
that did not fit their needs or desire?  How much better would it be if you
were to refer them to someone else and have a positive opinion of you and
your professionalism?  How much better would such an attitude be for all the
martial arts community? 

>
>Some of these discussions come down to perspective.  I don't have a problem
>with extra belts because most of us striking arts already had the extra
>ranks.

I don't think it's the extra belt color - but the choice of a camo belt that
seems a bit "strange".  Just as a toss away comment, when the camo belt was
added I think the ATA went to a belt that was half the length of the more
traditional belt.  I can only guess that such a move was a way to increase
the profit in a belt.  Half the length then there would be half the material
cost in a belt.  . . . . . . . . 
>
>Thomas Gordon
>Florida

I should shut up - I could go on for days on this topic.  Sorry for the long
post.

Rick Clark

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:21:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] camo belts
From: "Thomas Gordon" <tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

A refreashing post Master Clark.  Many thanks!

Your comment about the large commercial school causing the non-commercial
school to have more interest is often overlooked.  All ships rise with the
tide.

The point about camo belt is well taken.  Question is what to use?  Gold
belt, another green belt (low green & high green), tan belt, etc?  We use
low/high green and I don't care for it.  Don't like gold/yellow either. 
Hard to tell the difference unless they're standing next to each other. 
Really don't like camo - never did.

Thomas Gordon
Florida

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Joseph Cheavens" <jcheavens@hotmail.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Dr. Kano
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:25:31 -0500
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Makes me wonder if there are any Turner Clubs/Turnerschaft in Central
Texas, since there is such a large German immigrant population here that
dates back to the mid 1800s. German is still spoken by the older
generation in quite a few Hill Country towns like Fredericksburg.

Joe Cheavens

  --------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: "Rick Clark" <rick.aodenkou@verizon.net>
  Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
  To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
  Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Dr. Kano
  Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:28:36 -0400
  Hi Joseph,

  From: Joseph Cheavens [mailto:jcheavens@hotmail.com]
  Rick,

  Very interesting article. Thanks for sharing that.
  [ ] Thanks, I found the research on the article to be very
  interesting.
  When I was a kid (50's) we belonged to a club in Evansville IN called
  the
  "Turners Club". I learned how to swim there, they had fencing,
  gymnastics,
  basketball, and other sports. I did not realize that it anglicized
  version
  of a Turnerschaft. I have since found out that there were other
  Turner's
  clubs in the Midwest, interesting stuff for me.

  FWIW, with regards to gup/dan grades and belt colors, my first
  instructor, Sean Owen, started training in Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do
  around
  1967 or '68 in Berkeley, CA from my recollection. His instructor was
  Bong
  Young Choi. The belt system that Mr. Choi used and was/is used by Mr.
  Owen was an 8 gup system of white, yellow, 3 grades of green, and 3
  grades of brown. We had belt tests twice a year, so it usually took
  four
  years to earn dan grade. The explanation for the color schema that I
  was
  taught was that the darkening of the colors was supposed to represent
  the
  student's deepening knowledge of the art. One benefit of this color
  schema for the student was that the student could use the same belt
  from
  white through brown and just die the belt a new color when one was
  promoted from one color grade to the next. We used to have a belt
  dying
  party after rank tests to celebrate the promotions of those that
  passed.

  [ ] Back "in the day" we had white, green, brown, and black (Judo).

  Rick Clark

  Joe Cheavens

  --------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: "Rick Clark" <rick.aodenkou@verizon.net>
  Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
  To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
  Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Dr. Kano
  Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:01:41 -0400
  JR,

  From: J R Hilland [mailto:hapkido@wah.midco.net]

  Rick, it makes you wonder where he got it? :)

  <<<The Kyu/Dan system goes back a bit farther, in the 17th century
  Dosaku
  (1645-1702)
  [ ] That it does. . . . But the basic point that Kano took something
  that
  was in use and was able to fit it into his system of Judo was a smart
  thing.
  I have a theory that Kano had a mentor from his University days,
  Prof. Erwin
  Von Baelz. Have a look at an article I have on my web about Von Baelz
  who I
  think was very instrumental in the transition of Bujitsu to Budo.
  http://ao-denkou-kai.org/von_baelz.htm

  Rick Clark
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--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:30:12 -0400
From: "Lasich, Mark D." <Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com>
To: "Dojang" <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Camo Belt
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

As I pointed out before, each style may use different belt
colors/stripes, but their practice should be meaningful to them.

I find a lot of satisfaction in understanding as much as possible,
especially with respect to the martial arts, and appreciate those that
shared information regarding their practices. For those with similar
curiosity, the ATA web site details the symbolism behind the belt system
used in Songahm Taekwondo:
	http://www.ataonline.com/taekwondo/belts/index.asp

"In victory, be humble. In defeat, be strong. In all things be fair."
--- Eternal Grandmaster H.U. Lee


In the spirit,
Mark

--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:31:32 -0400
From: "Rick Clark" <rick.aodenkou@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Dr. Kano
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Hi Joe,

>From: Joseph Cheavens [mailto:jcheavens@hotmail.com]
>Makes me wonder if there are any Turner Clubs/Turnerschaft in Central
>Texas, since there is such a large German immigrant population here that
>dates back to the mid 1800s. German is still spoken by the older
>generation in quite a few Hill Country towns like Fredericksburg.
>
>Joe Cheavens

It would not surprise me if there were.  I know Louisville KY had one and I
"think" there were several others.  It might not hurt to check with the
local German clubs to see if anyone knows about them.  It would be
interesting to see how far they did spread.

Rick Clark

--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:37:35 -0400
From: "Rick Clark" <rick.aodenkou@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] camo belts
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Hi Thomas,

>From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com]


>A refreashing post Master Clark.  Many thanks!

Please use Rick - I think I am far from a master.  A "master" has too many
positive personality traits for my current state :-)  I am still at the
point of "do as I say - rather than do as I do".  :-(

>Your comment about the large commercial school causing the non-commercial
>school to have more interest is often overlooked.  All ships rise with the
>tide.

Or sink. . . . . large commercial schools that are not run well or have a
bad reputation can hurt the non-commercial schools.  

>The point about camo belt is well taken.  Question is what to use?  Gold
belt, another green belt (low green & high green), tan belt, etc?  We use
>low/high green and I don't care for it.  Don't like gold/yellow either.
Hard to tell the difference unless they're standing next to each other.
>Really don't like camo - never did.
>
>Thomas Gordon

No matter what the color and rank they serve some purpose, both positive and
negative.  Personally I would just as soon give every new student a black
belt and say "well that's out of the way now why not train and improve?"

Rick Clark

--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:52:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Luther Veuleman <charlie@tsdofla.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Historians
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Hey, maybe I've missed a couple of digests, but I haven't heard from Dakin in a long time, is Rick the new resident historian? lol 
   
  We need to play 'stump the historians' or something, come up with some really tough questions!
   
  Just kidding with you guys, I always enjoy how in depth the explainations/answers are.
   
  Charlie


--__--__--

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