Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:29:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #191 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: von Baelz (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. RE: RE: Turnverein (Joseph Cheavens) 3. RE: Tang Soo Do and Belts. (Joseph Cheavens) 4. Battle Cage Tickets (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. RE: New gate in Little Rock (Bert Edens) 6. RE: Hapkido Seminars? (J R Hilland) 7. Generic Terms (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. Re: RE: Sex, Fighting & Kara-te (Ray) 9. stripes on belts (Gordon Okerstrom) 10. Posting To The Digest (Luther Veuleman) 11. Re: life force (Beungood8@aol.com) 12. Tang Soo Do (Ray) 13. RE: Generic Terms (Rick Clark) 14. Re: Belt sizes (promotion) (Jonathan Boorstein) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:30:21 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: von Baelz Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick wrote: I did forget to mention that you can find copies of the diary of Von Baelz it was published by Indiana University as I remember. I think Indiana was the first state to institute physical education in the curriculum of its schools. My reply: Yep, thanks Rick. Prof. George Wilson was the editor of those diaries, and I spoke with him about von Baelz when I was dissertating. Take care, Dakin --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Turnverein Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:49:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin, Is there a strong connection between Turnverein and beer halls and bowling alleys? I work next door to Sholtz Garten, a beer garden founded by a German immigrant in 1866. Sholtz Garten also has a Sängerrunde and bowling alley attached. Are these just generic German cultural assets that tend to be linked? http://www.scholzgarten.net/History.html Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Turnverein Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:53:15 -0400 Hi Folks, Glad to see Rick bringing up the influence of the Turnverein. I did some research on them for my dissertation and actually was at the first Turner fest since 1917 at Indianapolis in the early 1990s. IUPUI has large holdings on the turnverein, whose Normal School for Gymnastics was the origin of Indiana University's Physical Education program. Back in the 1940s, they still had a beer hall and bowling alley downstairs at the Phys Ed program at IUPUI. Now that's an education I could enjoy! :) Von Baelz and his influence on Kano is also discussed in my dissertation, which of course you can purchase through Dissertation Abstracts (hint hint). I guess I ought to get it out in book form sometime soon, huh? Take care, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do and Belts. Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:56:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Japanese assimilation policy (i.e. forcing Koreans to adopt Japanese names, use the Japanese language in public, have a Shinto shrine in each home, etc) was only in effect from 1939 until 1945. Even then, Korean language newspapers continued to publish, albeit heavily censored, throughout the remainder of the Colonial Period. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curt McCauley" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do and Belts. Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:58:46 -0700 yes, well, i got a good laugh the other night. was watching a show with my better half. it was a drama. the main female character was dating a "karate" teacher. he was a "sensei" who taught in a "dojo", taught the style of "tang soo do" and wore the traditional wrap jacket and gave japanese commands. :) mel In the early days of Karate. It was Kara Te Do. Kara = Tang Dynasty Character Te = Hand Do = The Way ( of course) Funikoshi Changed the first character from the "Tang" to the one that means "Empty" Both are pronounced the same. (Kara ) Seems that during this time in history a Japanese much less an Okinawan could loose his/her head by using terminology that would be pro Chinese. Funakoshi was a smart man. At the end of WW 2, when the 5 Jangs opened up under the different names some wrote the "old" way Tang Soo Do, to let prospective customers know that it was a Martial Arts school. If you mention the phrase Tang Soo Do to an older Korean they will strike one hand against the other and repeat "Tang Soo Do". Also During the 30+ years that Korea was under Japanese rule, only the Japanese language was allowed to be spoken in public. So at least one generation if not two grew up with Japanese terminology. Hence the use of words like Dojo and Sensei in some of the Korean arts, including some Tae Kwon Do schools. Many people could only write in the common japanese hand, and not what is called Han Ja in Korean and Kan Ji (I think) in japanese. These would be the "borrowed" Characters from the Chinese writing. Respectfully Submitted, Curt McCauley Chief Instructor Channel Town Soo Bahk Do _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Picture this – share your photos and you could win big! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:49:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Battle Cage Tickets Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charlie I think you can get tickets online at www.battlecage360.com. If not i will have about 100 tickets to sell at my school and I can meet you the night before and sell you a couple. just let me know. I will be coming over early for the weigh-ins on Friday. I will be staying there in Shreveport, with my wife and my fighters. Stay in touch. Maybe we can meet up Friday Night. JC _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bert Edens" To: Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:03:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: New gate in Little Rock Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, all... I haven't seen the inside garden yet, but the gate itself is gorgeous... From the videos I've seen, it's definitely something I want to check out... Here are some videos: http://www.fox16.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=47667 http://www.ataonline.com/gate-garden/indexNEWGATE1.asp *bows* - Bert in Springdale, Arkansas (actually NOT affiliated with the ATA, but a lover of Korean culture) -----Original Message----- Subject: New gate in Little Rock American Taekwondo Association Presents Gate to Little Rock By Jamie Walden 6/22/2007 The American Taekwondo Association presented the H.U. Lee International Gate & Garden to the city of Little Rock on Friday morning, commemorating the late founder of the ATA, Haeng Ung Lee. The $1.4 million edifice, located on the east side of the Statehouse Convention Center, is the only true South Korean gate and garden in the United States. The 80-ton gate, made of Douglas fir wood, was hand-crafted in South Korea, then shipped to the U.S. to be assembled and painted. The intent of the structure is to salute martial arts, to serve as a symbol of friendship between South Korea and America, and to honor Eternal Grand Master H.U. Lee. Lee's widow, Sun C. Lee, said, "I'm overwhelmed. I'm so happy it's built," adding, "I think the Eternal Grand Master helped me to build it. He gave me the spirit to build this." The ceremony included the Korean tradition of giving a Korean name to a person of honor. Suh Jin Sup, chairman of the ROK-US Alliance Friendship Society and adviser to the ATA, is also the official name-maker of honorary Korean names for Americans. After Gov. Mike Beebe's speech, Jin Sup bestowed upon Beebe the first name "Bo Sung," meaning "precious star" and the last name "Baek," meaning "white or pure." --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:12:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido Seminars? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Also re: www.hapkido.com and click on the seminars page. The event happens twice a year. The cost is $65 for 3 days, this has never changed. Bring your camera or whatever you wish. I am certain you would enjoy training in (traditional) hapkido. Thanks for the feedback on my website and video clips. My students bought me a digital camcorder a few years ago, but I am way overdue on putting up more techniques. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com www.rrhapkido.com PS. I NEVER have had trouble knowing what level of training my students are at, so I have never found the use of stripping, or other ornamentation on the belt or dobok necessary regardless of the class size. <<>> <<>> --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Generic Terms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Rick I don't think you are wrong, however this can be debated from both sides. One might say that TKD is the style and the Kwan is the school in which it is taught. Although it may differ some it is still TKD. It could be argued that the Kwan or Ryu is simply one of the school names or Familys that teach a particular art. If a person comes to me a says they take TKD I can identify that with a skill set, If they say jui-jitsu again i can assoicate that with a skill set. When someone tells me they take Karate i often find myself asking what kind. Probably becasue the general public associates the term Karate as generic. Just yesterday someone told me they watched a Karate movie on TV. I ask which one and was told it was a Bruce Lee movie. Obviously Chinese and not Japanese I agree that Kwan, or Ryu can lable a style. TKD WTF and TKD ITF are not exactly the same however both are TKD. I began training in Small circle Jui-jitsu in 1992, in 2006 I began to transition to Gracie Jui-Jitsu. although they vary they are both the art of Jui-Jitsu. With all this being said it is vey easy for me to see both sides here. What some refer to as the art (TKD, SBD, Ishin Ryu, Jui-Jitsu, Hapkido) could be refered to as the style by many. I can also see how some might see these terms as generic skill sets, and the Kwan or Ryu from witch they came as the style. I still believe however that the term Karate, has been excepted it todays society as all forms of Martial Arts by the untrained general public, and that is why some use that term on there school signs. I believe that is why Hwang Kee changed the name on his first school from Hwa Soo Do to Tang Soo Do was so the gerneral public would associate with a term they knew. JC _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07 --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Sex, Fighting & Kara-te To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:54:51 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Whoops. Sorry for letting this one thru. My bad... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:59:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] stripes on belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Luther Veuleman wrote: Mr. Veuleman, we use the stripe system for between testing curriculum knowledge because we have more than one instructor and school. One instructor would not know exactly where the other instructor left off with them on the class, day or week before. The stripe system tells every instructor where a student is at in the curriculum. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:28:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Luther Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Posting To The Digest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry Ray, I gotta step in. Hey guys, I know this might seem picky, but when you hit reply to send something to the digest, could you please not send back the previous digest and/or whole messages. Instead, copy the lines of text you are referencing. It will make it so much easier to read for the digest-version people, and probably the email-version people. I think the last digest was 34k, which was huge, considering it was only 5 messages. Charlie V --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:04:09 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: life force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 6/26/2007 7:17:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Their model equates man-juice to life force...you start out with so much and it dwindles with "use". Oh god I'm on borrowed time... ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 12 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:03:22 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > .... I believe that is why > Hwang Kee changed the name on his first school from Hwa Soo Do to Tang Soo > Do was so the gerneral public would associate with a term they knew. It had to do with the fact that Lee Won-kuk had popularized the name Tang Soo Do via his Chung Do Kwan. As Hwang Kee states in The History of Moo Duk Kwan, he wanted to ride the popularity that Lee had already created. But let us not confuse things here. When Lee Won-kuk and Hwang Kee first started teaching Tang Soo Do in Korea they were teaching Japanese Karate or Okinawan Karate. This they both freely admitted. It was only later that their arts evolved and became Korean arts, not Japanese arts, not Japanese Karate. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:20:34 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Generic Terms To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi JC, From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] Hello Rick If a person comes to me a says they take TKD I can identify that with a skill set, Yes to a certain extent. I think there is a HUGE difference between "old school" TKD and modern TKD. I think if you were to put an "old school" TKD Chung Do Kwan guy in a plain white uniform and a modern TKD guy in a plain dobok (not the "V" neck) and had both do a form from their "style" most look and think that the old school guy is doing Japanese Karate. If they say jui-jitsu again i can assoicate that with a skill set. When someone tells me they take Karate i often find myself asking what kind. I have the same reaction when I go out and teach seminars and they say "we do TKD". I ask what style of TKD? There is quite a broad spectrum of TKD out there. I agree that Kwan, or Ryu can lable a style. TKD WTF and TKD ITF are not exactly the same however both are TKD. Sure both are TKD but they seem to come at the art in very different ways. I suspect you would be able to spot the difference between two people rather quickly. JC Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:33:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Boorstein Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Belt sizes (promotion) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I received a belt that was the wrong size -- a size too large in my case -- I felt slighted, as if I weren't "good enough" to get the right size belt. Worse, when I politely asked for the right size I was first told to just wear it and get used to it. When persistence didn't work, I just refused to wear it at all. That antic upset everyone else. Because everyone else was upset, a new belt was ordered, which didn't make me feel any more welcome. Even beyond that, the next belt also came in the wrong size. Eventually I wound up going over to the martial arts supply company myself and paying for a new belt myself to get the right size. Needless to say, I wound up taking over belt ordering to make sure that didn't happen again to me or anyone else. When it came time for me to decide whether to stay in that school or go, it was on my list of reasons why I shouldn't stay. And while I'm not saying it was the deciding factor, I did leave. JB Vernon Noble wrote: Dugy wrote: > Hello, > > I recently passed my red belt and for the 3rd belt in a row, the instructor > has given me a belt that is too small. It's a double wrap and by the time I > finish tying it, it looks like a gals pigtails. At brown belt level there was > barely enough room to put all 7 stripes and now though there are only 6 > stripes at this belt, I feel rediculous wearing this belt size. > > You all were commenting on belts, and how at times it's included in the exam > fee, which mine is, but I am the only one or possible 2nd one that is at this > level. I don't know if my instructor buys his belts one at a time or not, but > this being the 3rd time he's given me a belt not of my size is beginning to > tick me off. > > I know I can go out there and buy a red belt my size if I look hard enough, > but shouldn't the instructor get the right size? He even asked me what size he > should get for me. > > Ok, so the instructor has expenses, Last year he added $2 per hour for his > training comes to $96/month for a 2 day /week training and we sign up for a 6 > month or 1 year course., Then we pay the annual fee to belong to the "art". > Then we pay $45 for the fee to test, then we're buying gear, and so on.. > Another student there has a single wrap and his belt drags below his knees.. > Of course, his favorite student has a perfectly sized belt. > > Anywway, I would think with him knowing the money will be coming in for that > period of time, that he would at least try to please his students by getting > the right size for them. > > Comments ? > > DougM > Have a nice day, unless you already have other plans. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > > Dear Doug, This is an issue to discuss (with respect) with your instructor. It is in his interest to have everyone have the correct size belt. I do not know the situation at your school, but maybe you could become the student who contributes a little extra bit of time, and volunteer to help make the order to purchase belts for upcoming gup tests. Belts seem to be a big issue, but what is important is the quality of instruction received. If your instructor is helping you to be a better person, then you need to help him in these matters if you are one of his senior students. The nice day comment was unnecessary. Good luck, V. Noble PS. That's a lot of stripes for a belt. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest