Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 02:58:33 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #195 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Tang Soo Do (x x) 2. RE: Karate (x x) 3. RE: Hwang Kee teaching Japanese Karate (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. Re: Stripes, color Gup belts and stripes for Black Belts (Robert Burns) 5. Training with Hwabg Kee KJN (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. RE: RE: Turnverein, Assimilation (Joseph Cheavens) 7. Re: Tang Soo Do (Ray) 8. Re: Tang Soo Do (Ray) 9. OMAC ? (Ray) 10. WTF NEWSLETTER June 28, 2007 Issue No.3 (Ray) 11. Re: OMAC ? (Jonathan Boorstein) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "x x" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 01:31:03 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Whether he called it Hwa Soo Do or Tang Soo Do, I believe that Hwang Kee taught what he had learned from Yang Kuk Shin in 1936. This would have been Seh Bop (Postures), Bo Bop (steps), Ryun Bop (conditioning), Tae Kuk Kwon (Tai Chi Chuan) and Dham Toi sip E Ro (Spring Foot, 12 roads of). The last being a Chinese system known as Tan Tui.“Foot Snapping” AKA: Long Tan Foot Play. A highly rated basic boxing series in Chinese Wushu Handed down by a monk of the Long Tan monastery and the first form of Chang Ch’uan – adopted by several Northern systems. Makoto >From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:03:22 -0700 (PDT) > > > .... I believe that is why > > Hwang Kee changed the name on his first school from Hwa Soo Do to Tang >Soo > > Do was so the gerneral public would associate with a term they knew. > >It had to do with the fact that Lee Won-kuk had popularized the name >Tang Soo Do via his Chung Do Kwan. As Hwang Kee states in The History of >Moo Duk Kwan, he wanted to ride the popularity that Lee had already >created. > >But let us not confuse things here. When Lee Won-kuk and Hwang Kee >first started teaching Tang Soo Do in Korea they were teaching Japanese >Karate or Okinawan Karate. This they both freely admitted. It was only >later that their arts evolved and became Korean arts, not Japanese arts, >not Japanese Karate. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "x x" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Karate Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 02:21:35 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Karate may be Japanese but I believe it’s a generic term for a number of martial arts, systems and styles: Goju, Isshin, Shito, Shorin, Shotokan, Kempo, and etc. Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do have been identified by many as Korean Karate Systems. A book by Henry Cho was titled; Korean Karate. Webster’s defines Generic as: 1. Not specific: General. 2: not protected by a trademark. Makoto >From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) >Subject: [The_Dojang] Karate >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:06:37 -0700 (PDT) > >This is one that Webster clearly got right... > > >karate >One entry found for karate. >Function: noun >Etymology: Japanese, from kara empty + te hand >: a Japanese art of self-defense employing hand strikes and kicks to > disable or subdue an opponent > > > >Some will and do use it since it is such a well known word in the western >world, but clearly it is not really a generic term. Karate is Japanese. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:42:38 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hwang Kee teaching Japanese Karate Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC wrote: I agree that Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim did teach some aspects of Japanese Karate that he learned from books such as the Pyung Ahn Hyungs, and some others. But He also taught some Chinese techniques learned from Master Yang. However I believe his foundation was Tae Kyun which is Korean. So to say MDK Founder Hwang Kee taught Karate in the early days , although correct is a half truth. My reply: I don't think so. I think Ray is correct here. Have you seen GM Hwang's little blue book on the history of MDK? He is very clear in their about his early training (ie. finding some books on karate) and although the story is given very differently in other places, I think most of that is legend built upon various marketing needs. JC also wrote: Also I am not sure the MDK founder used the Tang Soo Do name to capitalize on the popularity of Lee Won Kuks school. ... After 30 plus years people did not speak or read Korean and did not recognize the name Hwa Soo Do. My reply: I would agree with this one. GM Hwang may have based his Tangsudo on that of GM Lee, but the reason both of them were using that name (which they actually pronounced as Karate-do at the time) was because Japanese culture was thought to be more successful than Korean at the time. An unhappy result of colonization, and a pragmatic judgment on Japanese industrial success. T'aegweondo is very different from karate now, but largely that is because of two reasons: (1) An emphasis on kicking emphasized the South Korean traditions of t'aeggyeon and (2) the ROK needed to emphasize that TKD was a different art from Karate, otherwise the Olympic Committee might have wanted to combine the two sports. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Burns To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: Young Pyo Choi Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Stripes, color Gup belts and stripes for Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net RE: Stripes (Thomas Gordon) In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) throughout the world including Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Jamaca, Canada, Ohio, Texas, Indiana and Florida (Crystal River), we use both color belts and stripes. The color belt indicates at a glance the "Gup" level and the stripes contain a Black Marker date and indication of which form and the date the student demonstrated his/her level of basic understanding of the "pattern" but not proficiency. Before each promotion test, the student must demonstrate proficiency in both forms (usually 2 new forms for each belt level) plus the assigned 5 "one-steps" or self-defense techniques, plus proficiency in 5 new Korean terms as assigned. At that point, the student is "ready" to test and not a moment before. The test fee, between $45 and $85 is used to purchase the new belt plus certificate plus refreshments after the testing, with very little going to the school. As for Black Belts, all Black Belts contain an embroidered silver or golf stripe, indicating their "Dan" ranking, e.g., one stripe for 1st Dan, etc. Much like chevrons on an enlisted man's sleeve in the Navy and Marine Corps. OMAC traces its origins back to Gr. Masters who started WTF, with a 9th Dan (Gr. Master Joon Pyo Choi) and 8th Dan (Gr. Master Young Pyo Choi) in charge of the Ohio and Indiana schools, respectively. HOPE THIS GIVES YOU SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION Bob Burns, 2nd Dan Assist. Instructor Indiana and Fla. www.omacindiana.com ypchoi@omacindiana.com raburns77usa@yahoo.com In our school, for color belts, we use stripes to designate what level the student is at with a quick glance. 1st stripe is basics 2nd stripe is form 3rd stripe is one-steps We're revamping part of that but it does several things. Again, a quick glance lets us know where the student should be at material wise. It also acts as a motivator for the student. For new students, it helps them get prepped for the formal testing with the with the informal in class striping. If they so desire, black belts use stripes for dahn ranking. Thomas Gordon Florida -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 10:20:07 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Training with Hwabg Kee KJN Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am sure that Master Mc Cauly can confirm what I say here. That is that Hwang Kee attended every US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan National Tournament for many years up until he became to ill to travel. I trained in a clinic with him in 1984 in Tyler Texas for the first time. Then in 1988, 89, 90, 91, and I believe 1992 at the Nationals. I then trained in a seminar he taught in Korea in 1995 in Seoul. That was the last time I saw the Grandmaster alive. I am sure Master McCauly can recall many times he met KJN. JC _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Turnverein, Assimilation Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:59:40 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interesting info on the Turnverein. I guess now I can say that I'm training when I go over to Sholtz Garten after work for a beer. ;-) I think you may be overstating the degree to which the Japanese attempted to assimilate the Koreans. After the Sino-Japanesed War, the Japanese were in a fairly dominant position and attempted to push through a reform program via proxies within the Choson Court. However, once the King fled to the Russian Legation, the Japanese lost a lot of their influence and the Kabo Reforms ultimately failed. The assassination of Queen Min by agents of the Genyosha and the King's father, the T'aewongun, was more of an act of desperation and frustration, and ultimately was counter productive. The period between the collapse of the Kabo Reforms and the Russo-Japanese War was one in which Japan and Russia jockeyed for position within Korea. This jockeying for power in Korea, as well as in Manchuria, of course led to war and ultimately unilateral Japanese control over Korea as agreed to in the Taft-Katsura Memorandum, which was a side deal to the Portsmouth Treaty ending the war. Consequently, Japan established a Protectorate to force the Koreans at gun point to modernize ala the Meiji Restoration. During the Protectorate, the Japanese were divided in their approach towards Korea, with the dominant faction (Ito Hirabumi's faction) favoring a reformist approach - i.e. force the Korean government to adopt a Meiji Restoration style modernization program. Kind of like the Kabo Reforms but with full weight of the Japanese military to back them up and without any attempts to work these reforms from within the Choson Court via Korean proxies. However, the then minority faction (Yamagata Aritomo's faction) favored using the Protectorate as a means of laying the groundwork for annexation. Since Yamagata's faction actually controlled the military and police, they were able to shape events on the ground to favor their approach and eventually gained acceptance for annexation. The first period following annexation was marked by the Army's direct control over Korea and brutal repression of all political dissent and any signs of resistance. During the period, the Government General did not try to destroy Korean culture per se, only to force the Koreans to bend their knecks to the Japanese yoke. As long as the Koreans didn't challenge Japanese rule, they were pretty much free to do as they pleased. During this period, Japanese law was highly discriminatory against Koreans - forcing those that had adopted Japanese names to revert to Korean names, applying a seperate penal code to Koreans, and severely restricting Korean emigration and travel to Japan. Following the March 1st Movement, the Japanese government sought to reform the Government General to make Japanese rule more palatable to the Korean population. This is usually referred to as the Period of Cultural Rule because Admiral (ret.) Saito Makato encouraged Korean intellectuals to promote Korean culture in a divide and conquer strategy to break up the independence movement. Most of the liberal minded intellectuals fell for the bait, believing that they needed to raise awareness and education amongst the masses before working towards independence from with in the system. The radicals were marginalized and either jailed, driven deep under ground or out of the country all together. It was during this period that the use of Hangul actually became common place, since it was viewed with disdain by the Sino-centric Yangban during the Choson Period and literacy rates were virtually nill outside of the Yangban class. During this period, the Korean Cultural Nationalists, as these liberal intellectuals came to be called, founded many newspapers and journals, study groups to study and promote Korean culture, and successfully pushed for an increase in public and higher education for Koreans. So, in many ways, the foundation for the continuation and dissemination of Korean culture was laid during this period.  Certainly following the Japanese seizure of Manchuria, Ugaki Kazushige restricted a lot of the freedoms promoted by Saito Makoto after the March 1st Movement. However, classes in Korean public schools were still taught in Korean and Korean language newspapers, journals and other media continued to be published. Even after Minami Jiro instituted the formal assimilation policies in 1939, which banned Korean in public schools, Korean language media was still printed throughout the remainder of the Colonial Period, albeit highly censored for content. It is this last period of colonial rule that most stands out in the collective historical consiousness of the Korean people because this was the period in which most of the elderly Korean today grow up during. If the Japanese had instituted this policy from the outset of the Colonial Period and never instituted any of Saito's cultural policies, it is quite possible that the Japanese would have successfully assimiliated the Koreans. However, because Saito's policies were adopted earlier and continued over a longer period than the assimilation policies, the assimilation policy was ultimately unsuccessul. As for the Japanese seizure of Korean lands, this was also more of a late colonial phenomana according to the resarch of Edwin Gragert. http://www.amazon.com/Landownership-Under-Colonial-Rule-Experience/dp/0824814975/ref=sr_1_8/102-8271856-0761763?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183038501&sr=1-8 Joe Cheavens ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free. --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Whether he called it Hwa Soo Do or Tang Soo Do, I believe that Hwang Kee >taught what he had learned from Yang Kuk Shin in 1936. This would have been >Seh Bop (Postures), Bo Bop (steps), Ryun Bop (conditioning), Tae Kuk Kwon >(Tai Chi Chuan) and Dham Toi sip E Ro (Spring Foot, 12 roads of). The last >being a Chinese system known as Tan Tui.“Foot Snapping” AKA: Long Tan Foot >Play. A highly rated basic boxing series in Chinese Wushu Handed down by a >monk of the Long Tan monastery and the first form of Chang Ch’uan – adopted >by several Northern systems. >Makoto And do you see any of this in the MDK of the 1950s or 1960s? There are lots of photos, even some old videos. What you see is essentially Karate. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... There are lots > of photos, even some old videos. What you see is essentially Karate. P.S. And there is nothing wrong with that. "Korean Karate" was essentially just karate, aka Japanese Karate. It wasn't until the 1960s that karate in Korea began to quickly evolve into truely a Korean art, separate and apart from karate. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. See Webster. Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear these days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:28:02 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF NEWSLETTER June 28, 2007 Issue No.3 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The latest WTF newsletter, WTF NEWSLETTER June 28, 2007 Issue No.3, has been emailed out and should be available shortly at http://wtf.org/site/news/newsletter.htm. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:55:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Boorstein Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Probably like the NAACP, it's a left-over oddity, more or less grandfathered in. JB Ray wrote: > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. See Webster. Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear these days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest