Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:16:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #196 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: OMAC ? (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 2. RE: OMAC, Orientalism, and Japanese Assimilation (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 3. RE: OMAC ? (Joseph Cheavens) 4. ITF (Gordon Okerstrom) 5. Re: OMAC ? (Ray) 6. RE: Oriental (Howard Spivey) 7. Re: Re:Grm Hwang Kee (Ray) 8. Subject: [The_Dojang] Training with Hwang Kee KJN (Curt McCauley) 9. Re: RE: Oriental (jay.oconnor@comcast.net) 10. Asians (Ray) 11. RE: RE: Oriental (Joseph Cheavens) 12. Re: SPAM [The_Dojang] ITF (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would guess it is for the same reason that the UNCF (United Negro College Fund) hasn't change to UAACF (United African American College Fund). Victor rterry@idiom.com 06/28/2007 09:21 To PM the_dojang@martialartsresource.net cc Please respond to Subject the_dojang@martia [The_Dojang] OMAC ? lartsresource.net > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. See Webster. Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear these days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:32:33 -0400 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: OMAC, Orientalism, and Japanese Assimilation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bob Burns writes: In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) throughout the world including Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Jamaca, Canada, Ohio, Texas, Indiana and Florida (Crystal River), we use both color belts and stripes. Ray added: Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. My reply: GM Choi founded OMAC at the height of the Bruce Lee craze. He just happens to be one of the few that is still teaching from that period. Remember the Black Dragon Academy? Rudy can probably tell you a little about how GM Pak was marketing himself back then. A lot of the Koreans were calling their stuff kung-fu and stressing its origins in the mysterious Orient at the time, just like the guys who came over before that called their art "Korean Karate." Marketing. But you're right Ray, Edward Said's _Orientalism_ has really put that term out of favor, largely because the Orient moved east from Persia to Japan as a term for "othering" people who weren't like Western Europeans. For those wondering about OMAC, GM Joon P. Choi started teaching in the U.S. in Indiana in 1971. He founded the Oriental Martial Arts College in Gallatin TN soon after (yes, I know OMAC says it was founded in Korea in 1963, but that's just when GM Choi started teaching the Boy Scouts). In 1972, he opened the OMAC in Columbus, OH, and then in 1974 his brother, GM Young Pyo Choi, joined him in Columbus. In 1983, Young Pyo Choi opened an OMAC in Indianapolis, IN. SOURCES: http://www.omacworld.com/history.html http://www.moogong.com/masters/jpchoi.htm http://www.omacindiana.com/ypchoi.htm Joe Cheavens wrote: I think you may be overstating the degree to which the Japanese attempted to assimilate the Koreans. My reply: Yep, probably. I was answering that one on the fly and researching as I went. I really enjoyed your reply, and read it carefully -- you make some great points. I do think, however, that you are letting your response be colored too much by the printed history and therefore by the embedded Japanese rationalizations of their rule. I still think my analogy of Jim Crow is an accurate one, and that Japanese words and actions were at odds, and that the printed histories concentrate upon Japanese policy, not the realities of Korean daily life. Indulge me for a second as I post a bit of an article from _The Journal of the International Institute_ (2001): "[Takashi] Fujitani acknowledged that there is, on the one hand, a great deal of truth to the argument that even as the colonial authorities sought to convince Koreans that the Emperor believed in their fundamental equality to the Japanese, racist policies and discriminatory attitudes continued to be directed against Koreans. It is well known that tens of thousands of Korean women (as well as women from other countries) were forced into sexual slavery, and hundreds of thousands of men from Japan's formal colonies and China were put to work, against their will, in mining, construction and other strategic industries throughout the empire. It is also well known that in the last decade of the colonial period, colonial authorities pursued a policy of forced assimilation under the banner of Naisen Ittai (Interior [Japan] and Korea as one body): eliminating the use of Korean in school instruction (1934), requiring attendance at Shinto ceremonies (1935) and forcing Koreans to adopt Japanese surnames (1939). The slogan of Naisen Ittai, however, reveals the ambivalence of Japan's racial policy throughout the colonial period: the ambivalence marked by Japan as the Interior (Nai), excluding Korea (sen) as the "outside," while at the same time this outside (Korea) must become one with the Interior which is always already there. Fujitani argues that, despite this ambivalence, the Japanese elite became caught up in the very discourse of equality they promoted. Especially in the post-1937 era, when the Japanese imperial army invaded north China, the looming necessity of waging total war set loose a set of contradictory discourses regarding race or ethnicity that enveloped colonizers and colonized alike. In this context, Fujitani argues, a racial "common sense" emerged that made it increasingly obligatory to proclaim equality and made it difficult for Japanese elites to openly express their racism. Japanese elites felt increasingly bound to act and speak toward Koreans as if they believed in their fundamental equality. They also found it necessary to speak with each other and toward the metropolitan population at large in the same way and to even begin addressing Korean demands that they be treated equally." Sounds to me a lot like the paternalism of slave-owners in the Old South. SOURCE: http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/journal/vol9no1/em.html PS: Wow, that's more than I've posted in a long time! Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:17:19 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do you think I should inform the local "Oriental Modeling Studio and Massage Parlor" that they are not using a PC term for their bordello? ;-) Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. See Webster. Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear these days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:13:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Is there a forum for dedicated to ITF Tae Kwon Do discussion? --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:17:00 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I would guess it is for the same reason that the UNCF (United Negro College > Fund) hasn't change to UAACF (United African American College Fund). The mention of NAACP was a good example. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:25:13 -0500 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Oriental Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have never understood how "Oriental" came to have a negative connotation. Just more PC BS. The word simply means "Eastern", just as "Occidental" means "Western". It never had a pejorative connotation until the 90s or so, when the PC crowd decided it was bad. It is much more descriptive than the PC term "Asian", which refers to a very wide swath of humanity. I used to hear this from the PC crowd: "Rugs are oriental. People are Asian." -----Original Message----- From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com [mailto:Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:20 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? I would guess it is for the same reason that the UNCF (United Negro College Fund) hasn't change to UAACF (United African American College Fund). Victor rterry@idiom.com 06/28/2007 09:21 To PM the_dojang@martialartsresource.net cc Please respond to Subject the_dojang@martia [The_Dojang] OMAC ? lartsresource.net > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. See Webster. Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear these days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Grm Hwang Kee To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:44:28 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Am I the only one here that met Hwang Kee? Probably not. Am I the only one here to have been in his office in the 'new' MDK dojang in Seoul? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Subject: Subject: [The_Dojang] Training with Hwang Kee KJN Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net J.C. Your young memory is better than mine. I cannot remember the years, but, I also took several clinics at nationals with the Kwan Jang Nim present. I also went to Korea in '95 and trained in that clinic in the gravel. Do you remember KJN Hwang Kee slapping the Present KJN H.C. Hwang while he was speaking?) ( Another story) and I last visited with Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee in 2000. I am very happy to say my last moment with him was a hug that I was not expecting. My instructor, Robert Shipley III SBN, recieved his Dan classing in 1961 at the Central Dojang in Seoul. He married a local girl and lived there for a few years. Both of his two sons were born in Korea. From the stories I hear, the Founder and Shipley SBN, did a lot of hiking in the mountains around there. Young Shipley SBN relates how quick the Founders' hands were. He would snatch butterflies out of the air and the open his hand under the young boys noses releasing the butterfly. At that time in their lives they considered this quite magical. A grand man with a profound history. Curt McCauley Chief Instructor Channel Town Soo Bahk Do --__--__-- Message: 9 From: jay.oconnor@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Oriental Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:43:55 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Did anyone actually ask the Asians or the Orientals or whomever what they actually thought of the word(s)? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Howard Spivey" > I have never understood how "Oriental" came to have a negative connotation. > Just more PC BS. > > The word simply means "Eastern", just as "Occidental" means "Western". It > never had a pejorative connotation until the 90s or so, when the PC crowd > decided it was bad. It is much more descriptive than the PC term "Asian", > which refers to a very wide swath of humanity. > > I used to hear this from the PC crowd: "Rugs are oriental. People are > Asian." > > -----Original Message----- > From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com [mailto:Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com] > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:20 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? > > I would guess it is for the same reason that the UNCF (United Negro College > Fund) hasn't change to UAACF (United African American College Fund). > > Victor > > > > > > rterry@idiom.com > > 06/28/2007 09:21 To > PM the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > cc > > Please respond to Subject > the_dojang@martia [The_Dojang] OMAC ? > lartsresource.net > > > > > > > > > > > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... > > Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" > > in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. > See Webster. > > Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years > ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear > these days. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:02:34 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [The_Dojang] Asians Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was asked if anyone had asked Asians if they minded being called Orientals. Yes, of course. I'm sure there are some, perhaps many, that do not mind. More likely those that are older (60+) and more used to it. Filipinos/as don't care to be called flips. There are terms for Spanish, Italians, Germans that are not appreciated by those folks. Although often incorrect, Wikipedia mentions; The American Heritage Book of English Usage notes that... It is worth remembering, though, that Oriental is not an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. It is most objectionable in contemporary contexts and when used as a noun, as in "the appointment of an Oriental to head the commission". In these cases Asian (or a more specific term such as Vietnamese, Korean, or Asian American, if appropriate) is the only acceptable term. But in certain historical contexts, or when its exotic connotations are integral to the topic, Oriental remains a useful term. Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language states "Other words (e.g. Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate." This Guide to Sensitive Language suggests the use of "Asian or more specific designation such as Pacific Islander, Chinese American, [or] Korean." Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Oriental Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:08:04 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Perhaps you should read Said's work. FWIW, I first heard that many Asians consider the term to be deragatory my freshman year in college in 1985. http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Orientalism.html Trivia Pursuit time: who here (besides Dakin ;-) ) knows the origins of the term Oriental? Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howard Spivey" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Oriental Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:25:13 -0500 I have never understood how "Oriental" came to have a negative connotation. Just more PC BS. The word simply means "Eastern", just as "Occidental" means "Western". It never had a pejorative connotation until the 90s or so, when the PC crowd decided it was bad. It is much more descriptive than the PC term "Asian", which refers to a very wide swath of humanity. I used to hear this from the PC crowd: "Rugs are oriental. People are Asian." -----Original Message----- From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com [mailto:Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:20 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] OMAC ? I would guess it is for the same reason that the UNCF (United Negro College Fund) hasn't change to UAACF (United African American College Fund). Victor rterry@idiom.com 06/28/2007 09:21 To PM the_dojang@martialartsresource.net cc Please respond to Subject the_dojang@martia [The_Dojang] OMAC ? lartsresource.net > In the OMAC (Oriental Mrtial Arts College) .... Any thoughts as to why this OMAC group continues to use the term "oriental" in their name? These days that is frequently considered an offensive term. See Webster. Now before I am accused of being too PC, it is just a comment. 30 years ago and before it was commonly used, but it is not a term that you hear these days. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:21:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: SPAM [The_Dojang] ITF From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net www.taekwondo.net has a decent forum. They have several forums and one of them is ITF specific. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest