Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:37:01 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #228 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. (Jye nigma) 2. Use of hand strikes in Taekwondo competitions (Sunilchandra Dal) 3. Re: Re: Wow, mr Hilland, that's a steal! (Jye nigma) 4. Long term contracts (The_Dojang) 5. Master Mangum, etc. (JR West) 6. RE: Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. (Joseph Cheavens) 7. RE: Use of hand strikes in Taekwondo competitions (Joseph Cheavens) 8. RE: Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. (Ferdinand "Fernando" Perez) 9. RE: Long term contracts (Joseph Cheavens) 10. Re: Long term contracts (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:30:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can't figure out why these TKD guy kept trying to use that axe kick...lol Jye --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:45:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Sunilchandra Dal To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Use of hand strikes in Taekwondo competitions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Some Taekwondo instructors discourage the use of hand blows in competition eg fist strikes to chest etc. They feel the student must use more kicks. Are hand blows and strikes totally disallowed or discouraged? What do the rules say about use of hand blows in competitions? Is there any authoritative website or book where I can check this out and quote? Thanks Sunilchandra Dal --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 06:37:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Wow, mr Hilland, that's a steal! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I might be able to go another time. School has me locked down for now. Hey I can relate to that. I had a kung fu teacher who used to LOVE to use me as an example. When we were practicing chin na and someone asked a question on applications, he'd always call for me. I have experienced pain beyond believe with him...lol. Jye tim walker wrote: Jye, my brother-from-another-mother, you can't afford NOT to go. Timo "Still got the scars from the first time" P.S. Some things not to say/do: Don't volunteer to be Master Whalen's cane dummy Don't volunteer to be Master Booth's Dan Bong dummy Don't let Master Mangum touch you at all Don't even think of saying, "That won't work on me" or the corollary, "Can't he just bite your fingers?" _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:37:58 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Long term contracts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Long-term deals sticky Signing kids to lengthy recreation pacts can be regrettable David Migoya The Denver Post Master Han Won Lee owns and runs the U.S. Taekwondo Center in Castle Rock. Laurie Jimenez is unhappy with the three-year contract she signed for her two boys Noah, age 9 and Christiaan, age 15, at the school. Laurie Jimenez is emblematic of many of today's parents, searching for an activity her kids will stick with. So when her three sons showed a continued interest in taekwondo last year - they begged their mother to let them go - the Castle Rock resident relented and signed them up at the U.S. Taekwondo Center. It seemed like a perfect fit. USTC owner Han Won Lee had strong credentials: a shared bronze medal from the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, and a decade as resident coach at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. But as situations changed, attitudes shifted and attentions diverted, Jimenez wanted out of her three-year contract with USTC after a year. It wasn't so much the Long-term contracts? expense - an $11,000 commitment automatically charged in $300 increments to her credit card each month - but, Jimenez said, because her eldest son, Robert, 18, didn't want to continue studying. The program was just too demanding for him. Also, Jimenez said she felt USTC didn't accept the best efforts of her 15-year-old son, Christiaan - a disabled teen with difficulty maintaining his balance - insisting instead that he meet standards like other students. "You have no idea how many hours a week I pushed those little boys," Jimenez said. Jimenez's situation brings into focus the oft- questioned practice of committing children to long-term deals for any activity, and the intentions of parents who sign the contracts and businesses that use them. Long-term contracts, once popular in the fitness-club industry, are increasingly being used in the martial-arts business. Lee said he accommodated the Jimenez clan, offering assistance to ensure the boys' success. He noted how the youngest of the boys, 9-year-old Noah, attained his black belt within a year. Nevertheless, Lee said, he runs a business, and the contract was clear: Jimenez agreed to pay for taekwondo classes - whether her boys attended or not - until 2009. Lee said Jimenez could not meet any of the written terms necessary to negate the agreement, such as proving Robert had moved at least 30 miles away to attend college. "They knew everything upfront," Lee said. "Nothing was hidden." Long-term contracts fell out of favor years ago following disputes with health clubs that signed adult members to lifetime deals, then closed their doors, leaving customers unable to get refunds. Other clubs quickly offered monthly deals instead, a practice that continues today. Yet long-term contracts are gaining popularity again, this time among the nation's 30,000 tae kwondo outlets, industry experts say. "The practice of long-term contracts is not illegal; it's just cumbersome and troublesome," said Susan Liehe, spokeswoman for the Denver/Boulder Better Business Bureau. "It's troubling because life happens. You move; you break a leg; a family breaks up. Customers are optimistic, but when it doesn't work, it makes for a difficult split." Jimenez said she wasn't thrilled with signing a long-term deal but worried that her boys wouldn't get a shot at the coveted black belt if she didn't agree to a special black-belt club that Lee offered. "I was hesitant, but it happened so fast, and even though it didn't feel right, I didn't want to be embarrassed," Jimenez said. Taekwondo schools are encouraged to wrap multiyear contracts around the goal of a black belt, according to industry publications. That's partly because 70 percent of today's students are children, said Rob Colasanti of the National Association of Professional Martial Artists. "There has been an exponential growth in the number of black-belt clubs," Colasanti said. "The structure and methodology of the programs hold a special appeal to youngsters." Conceding that his black-belt program is tough and typically takes about three years, Lee said his school uses the multiyear deals as a way to keep youngsters on track. "The goal is to have the black belt, and this empowers our kids," Lee said. "If they can accomplish this, then they can do anything else." Martial-arts contracts are different from the health-club deals that caused problems years ago, Colasanti said. "Health clubs wanted nonactive payees because if everyone showed up, the line would be around the block," he said. "Martial arts is a curriculum. ... But it also helps with the financial stability of the school." Some schools, however, shun the practice, saying the goal should be to earn customer loyalty rather than lock someone into a deal. "Long-term contracts reduce accountability to the schools," said Robbin Merta, co-owner of Saeng Myong Martial Arts in Broomfield. "We want people to feel free to leave if they are not getting what they hoped." She said she doesn't think it's a good idea to commit kids to anything long term. "Life situations change," she said. "If it were me, I'd not sign a long-term contract for my 7-year-old assuming that nothing in his life would change until he's 12. "I'd love it if he could, but it's just not realistic." Devil's in the details Consumers should carefully scrutinize multiyear contracts involving activities or athletics, especially when committing children whose interests can change rapidly. A few things to consider before signing any deal: Comparison shop. You might find a comparable facility that doesn't insist on a long-term contract. Martial- arts schools are not certified, so shop carefully. Take the time to really read and understand any contract before signing. Pay attention to the terms and conditions for terminating the contract and obtaining a refund. Don't be pressed to sign on the spot. If the business won't allow you to review the contract thoroughly or to take a copy with you to look over, go elsewhere. Ask questions about anything you don't understand. Never accept any modifications to the contract unless they are put in writing. Consider what you're getting for the price. The cheapest offer may not be the best choice. Don't choose a place by its location alone. Convenience should not displace quality. Contact the attorney general's office at 800-222-4444 if you feel a business has engaged in false advertising or deceptive trade practices. A complaint form is online at www.ago.state.co.us/consline/consline.cfm. Sources: Colorado attorney general's office, National Association of Professional Martial Artists --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "JR West" To: Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:00:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Mangum, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net " Don't let Master Mangum touch you at all " This is good advice, and even Mr. John Harrison, a 4th dan gorilla himself, rolls his eyes when getting on the mat with Master Mangum.....Now for the good news.......Master M has been on an incredible excercise routine that has dropped his 8% body fat frame from 280 down to a mere 260. He mentioned in class that although he feels skinny (?) now, he actually feels a little stronger and MUCH quicker....Good grief! On another note, the prep for the Sept. 7 - 9 KMA seminar is coming along nicely, but the hotel is quickly running out of rooms, so make your reservations soon. If you can't get a room at the event site, call me (601-856-8487) and I'll suggest a couple of alternates........Looking forward to seeing everyone soon, and was happy to learn the Masters Ray and Jere will be making the trip, as will Holcombe Thomas. Dr. Kimm will be in Korea working on the printing of his History book........JRW --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:33:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Where's the video clip. And as for the axe kick in kickboxing, two words, "Andy Hug." Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:30:15 -0700 (PDT) I can't figure out why these TKD guy kept trying to use that axe kick...lol Jye --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to win! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Use of hand strikes in Taekwondo competitions Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:39:59 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I assume you are referring to WTF/Olympic rules TKD competition, since ITF rules allow punches to the head. WTF/Olympic rules allow for punches to the body and prohibit them to the head/face. However, the only way you can score with a punch is by "trembling shock" (i.e. you either knock your opponent backwards, off their feet, or double them over sucking air), so its pretty hard to do against someone wearing a hogu. As a result, most judges will pretty much ignore any punches to the body when scoring. Punches can be a good way to set up a kick, though, so many schools continue to teach punches for competition reasons. Also, those schools that are not sport oriented will teach a lot more hand technique, since they are generally more applicable in a self-defense situation than most kicks. Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sunilchandra Dal Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Use of hand strikes in Taekwondo competitions Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Some Taekwondo instructors discourage the use of hand blows in competition eg fist strikes to chest etc. They feel the student must use more kicks. Are hand blows and strikes totally disallowed or discouraged? What do the rules say about use of hand blows in competitions? Is there any authoritative website or book where I can check this out and quote? Thanks Sunilchandra Dal --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Ferdinand \"Fernando\" Perez" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:38:50 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Try this link, it has a variety of Andy Hug (RIP) fights, enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=andy+hug -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Cheavens [mailto:jcheavens@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:33 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. Where's the video clip. And as for the axe kick in kickboxing, two words, "Andy Hug." Joe Cheavens -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jye nigma Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clip: TKD vs kickboxing. Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:30:15 -0700 (PDT) I can't figure out why these TKD guy kept trying to use that axe kick...lol Jye --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to win! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Joseph Cheavens" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Long term contracts Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Long terms contracts, especially for kids, is a terrible practice and smacks of McDojoism of the highest order.  Other indicators: "Lee said he accommodated the Jimenez clan, offering assistance to ensure the boys' success. He noted how the youngest of the boys, 9-year-old Noah, attained his black belt within a year." [empasis added] 1 Kiddie black belts 2 Short period of time to attain rank Conceding that his black-belt program is tough and typically takes about three years, Lee said his school uses the multiyear deals as a way to keep youngsters on track.       3. See point #2 "The goal is to have the black belt, and this empowers our kids," Lee said. "If they can accomplish this, then they can do anything else."        4. Viewing rank as a goal rather than an indication of profficieny        5. The idea that rank "empowers" kids. Congratulations, Mrs Jimenez, you enrolled your kids in a first class McDojang. Would you like fries with that order? Joe Cheavens ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:51:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Long term contracts From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I’ll start off by saying, at this time, we don’t offer three year contracts. However, if we did, just like the school owner in the article, we’d only enter into them with adults. She has an 18 year old, surely she’s seen a contract before and knows what it entails. And, like Master Lee, if we did, it would have an escape clause should they move XX miles or get injured and can’t train. An adult signed them and now she’s stuck paying the bill – it’s called accountability. From a business perspective, sounds like Master Lee is giving her some training in adult responsibility. Heck, appears there’s another school in the area that doesn’t require contracts so it’s not like she didn’t have a choice. According to Master Lee, everything was presented before she signed including the escape clauses. She doesn’t deny this. The article is written to tug at the emotional side of us. One son has a disability, one has ADD, and one couldn’t think of an ailment so he said it was just too demanding. Did any of this happen AFTER she signed the contract for her boys? The boys are 18, 15, and 9 yet she comments, "You have no idea how many hours a week I pushed those little boys," HA! Little boys!? Poor little babies. I’d be more empathetic if one of her son’s wanted to quit for whatever reason. But all three want to quit for various reasons. Furthermore, it never said they were forced to sign in order to continue training. It was for the black belt club which is typically an upgrade. Now the one year black belt comment - yikes! They may have been a typo - I'd like to think so. If not, what's the point in doing a "36 month black belt club" when it only takes 12 months? I gotta go now, I’m going to call my landlord and see if I can tell them that I don’t want to play martial art teacher anymore. I mean, running a full time professional facility is just tooooo demanding. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest