Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 02:12:00 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #321 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,200 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Titles and Honorifics... (J. Thomas Howard) 2. RE: RE: Titles and Honorifics... (John Johnson) 3. on the use of titles. (Hankido) 4. World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships Conclude (The_Dojang) 5. use of titles/terms in foreign languages (TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro) 6. USA Wins a Second Bronze @ World Taekwondo Poomsae (The_Dojang) 7. Re: use of titles/terms in foreign languages (Christian Briggs) 8. Re: use of titles/terms in foreign languages (Ray) 9. Re: on the use of titles. (Ronnielynchburg@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J. Thomas Howard" To: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:07:43 -0600 Organization: Nebraska Hapkido Association Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Titles and Honorifics... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: > See the 'sensei' entry in Wikipedia for some info or other such > similar sources. Also see the entries for 'korean honorific' or even > 'japanese honorific' as well as just plain 'honorific'. Regarding the use of Sabum and Sabumnim as titles---didn't we have that discussion awhile back? Wasn't it that the "nim" on the end (for the Korean terms) is the actual honorific, used when addressing someone else? And use of the root word is perfectly normal after one's own name? For example: John Smith, Sabum (when Mr. Smith signs a letter as an instructor) and Sabumnim Smith (when a junior student is addressing Mr. Smith, his teacher) --or in a more strict usage, "Smith Sabumnim" But one would not call themselves "Sabumnim Smith," nor would one write "John Smith, Sabumnim" because one does not use the honorific to describe themselves. Sabum is the title, nim the honorific. True? About the Japanese term---if I recall correctly, I believe Ray is completely right. The complete term "sensei" automatically includes the honorific, and like Ray said, it is considered arrogant in Japan (among other places) to refer to oneself using an honorific. Something amusing and informational to read: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/12/26/sensei-and-senpai/ Thomas H. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007 4:36 AM --__--__-- Message: 2 From: John Johnson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Titles and Honorifics... Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:54:00 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Thomas, et al. I have lived in Korea for the last nine years and had the extreme pleasure of being married to a Japanese woman for a while now, and I can confirm everything you stated below. As far as calling a Korean "sensei," I can't think of a worse insult to a Korean martial arts instructor. This is due to the Japanese occupation of the early 20th century and their relentless efforts to distinguish their arts from the Japanese that they stemmed from. An assistance instructor (3rd dan) are called boo-sa-bum and instructors (4th dan and above) are called sa-bum. However, if someone chooses to open their own school, they are simply called kwan-jang, or literally 'school head". You may omit the person's name when addressing them. This really helps at dinner parties and you're on your third bottle of soju and can't remember your own name, much less the guy sitting next to you. Incidentally, the ITF distinguished between other higher ranks, but the WTF, KHF, and other Korea-based organizations do not. Just my two cents... John A. JohnsonSeoul, S. KoreaIV, ITF IV, KHF> From: jthhapkido@alltel.net> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:07:43 -0600> Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Titles and Honorifics...> > Ray wrote:> > See the 'sensei' entry in Wikipedia for some info or other such > > similar sources. Also see the entries for 'korean honorific' or even > > 'japanese honorific' as well as just plain 'honorific'.> > Regarding the use of Sabum and Sabumnim as titles---didn't we have that> discussion awhile back? Wasn't it that the "nim" on the end (for the Korean> terms) is the actual honorific, used when addressing someone else? And use> of the root word is perfectly normal after one's own name?> > For example:> > John Smith, Sabum (when Mr. Smith signs a letter as an instructor)> and> Sabumnim Smith (when a junior student is addressing Mr. Smith, his teacher)> --or in a more strict usage, "Smith Sabumnim"> > But one would not call themselves "Sabumnim Smith," nor would one write> "John Smith, Sabumnim" because one does not use the honorific to describe> themselves.> > Sabum is the title, nim the honorific. True? > > About the Japanese term---if I recall correctly, I believe Ray is completely> right. The complete term "sensei" automatically includes the honorific, and> like Ray said, it is considered arrogant in Japan (among other places) to> refer to oneself using an honorific. Something amusing and informational to> read: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/12/26/sensei-and-senpai/> > > Thomas H.> > No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.22/1111 - Release Date: 11/5/2007> 4:36 AM> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last.  Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971 033 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:06:22 -0800 From: Hankido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] on the use of titles. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can only talk about the use of Korean titles here. The -nim suffix is only used by others. So you call your teacher sabeomnim, the calls himself sabeom. Although there might also sound something of affection when an older person just calls you sabeom. You would never sign a letter or certificate with John Doe Sabeomnim. Instead you would sign with John Doe Sabeom Koreans put the title after the name, but English speaking persons don't. Have you ever been referred to by a Korean person as: John Doe Mister?? Probably not. So when you talk in English, I would say it is perfectly alright to call somebody Sabeomnim John Doe. But when talking to somebody Korean or to somebody in Korea, John Doe Sabeomnim would probably sound better to the person you are talking to. -- mvg. Klaas Barends http://www.mooyesa.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:52:24 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships Conclude Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 2nd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships Conclude in Success The 2nd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships concluded in a resounding success in Incheon, west of Seoul, on Nov. 6, 2007. The three-day event, which took place at the Incheon World Gymnasium, drew great interest from both the media and the public. The Incheon World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships, promoted by the WTF and organized by the Korea Taekwondo Association, saw a great improvement in the overall level of poomsae techniques, compared with last year's inaugural Poomsea Championships. "We have witnessed a great improvement in the overall level of poomsae techniques this time, especially the volume of movement and energetic expression," said WTF President Chungwon Choue in his closing speech. He continued to say, "It, however, requires a further improvement in the power and speed, and the coordination of rhythm and tempo." "Poomsae is a discipline of taekwondo that combines dynamism, accuracy and grace. My vision for poomsae is to make it a global sport-for-all," WTF President Choue said. In the closing ceremony, WTF President Choue honored five best referees, who officiated the 2nd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships. The five referees are Korea's In-ok Yang, Australia's Sin Boo Kim, Mexico's Santiago Escutia, the Netherlands' Mustapha Moutarazak and Egypt's Aly Mohamed Taher Nour. The third and final day of the Poomsae Championships featured five categories. The three days of competition put a total of 16 golds up for grabs. Host Korea, which swept the 16 golds in the inaugural Poomsae Championships in 2006, did not send their players to three categories. At the Incheon Championships, Korea earned 11 golds and one silver. Spain won one gold, six silvers and three bronzes, while Iran clinched one gold, two silvers and four bronzes. Turkey grabbed six silvers and one bronze. In the men's individual 2nd senior category (between over 51 years old), Iran's Mohammad Taghi Hatami Marbini won the gold medal, while Spain's Pedro Campillo Frontera earned his country the silver medal. The bronze went to Germany's Yun Hado and Italy's Notaro Andrea. In the men's individual 2nd master division (between 31 and 40), Korea's Hee-do Kim clinched the gold, while Spain's Jeong Cheol Kim won the silver. The bronze was shared by Chinese Taipei's Shuang-Hsia Chen and Iran's Ghorban Del Shad. In the women's individual 1st master (between 19 and 30), Korea's Yeong-ae Suh won the gold, while the United States' Dure Chang clinched the silver. The bronze went to Germany's Turner Imke and Australia's Carmela Hartnett. In the 1st pair division (beteen 14 and 35), Korea's Seok-ho Yun and So-hee Kang combined to win the gold medal, while the silver went to Turkey's Falzi Karisik and Rabia Kim. The bronze went to Spain's Samuel Meilan Fernandez and Nerea Alamancos Lamas, and Chinese Taipei's Hung-Ting Kuo and Yu-Shu Tasi. In the 2nd pair division (over 36), Spain's Antonio Moreno Rodriguez and Josefina Lopez Perez won the gold medal, while Turkey's Nesime Altun and Mustafa Yilmaz clinched the silver. The bronze shared by Itlay's Notaro Andrea and Chiappellim Giovanna, and France's Panel Denis and Forca Sybille. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro" To: Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:04:00 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] use of titles/terms in foreign languages Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings Everyone, I teach a mixed martial art with a solid base of Changhun TKD and DZR JJ...with a good dose of Aiki, Gohakukai karate and boxing...and I cannot forget the HKD additions I have learned from DD list Masters Timmerman, Burrese and Janisse. Throughout my time in MA since 1982 (yah, I know...I'm still a newbie to some of you) I have experienced what can only be described as butchery of language. From incorrect usage to massive mispronunciation, there have been some real zingers. My first karate instructor teaches mostly in English...he is Okinawan. My Aikido teachers used the Japanese terms, but also their English equivalents...both were fluent in Japanese. The JJ guys - all white boys. Of my TKD instructors, some were Korean, others were not. The Korean ones used mostly English in class, the others tried to use Korean. (saying stuff like 'chung greeeah' for choon bi etc.) For those of you who speak other languages you know that changing a vowel or even an inflection can cause a totally different meaning. I find it offensive when unconsciously incompetent folks use language incorrectly...especially in MA...just to appease the gods of whatever MA they practice. Native speakers hear some of those words and look at the speaker with a 'WTF did you just say' look on their faces. I took action in high school by dating this hot Korean gal (who uhhhh....helped me with my pronunciation.....ahh, those were good times) I have Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Euro, Hispanic, and English folks in my school, who have at one time or another referred to me by their native language word for teacher. I don't correct them if they use the terms. I use Mr. or Sir as my official title. As has been posted already, I too believe using the title when referring to yourself is incorrect. My first TKD school, run by a Korean, still uses the words Taekwon-Karate Center on their patches, documents, website etc. using Korean-Japanese-English to describe the dojang. I have a question. What do the Olympic wrestlers & boxers worldwide call their instructors? I wonder if it is their native language word for coach/instructor.......instead of the Greco/Roman - English equivalent. Anyway, some of you put way too much stock in a word. Look at the history of KMA in north America. How many dojang called themselves dojo and had a neon sign that said Korean Karate? Most average folks have heard the term Sensei but have never heard Sabomnim/Kwangjangnim. Use whatever title you want. So long as your intent is just & honorable and your instructors and customers don't care, what does it really matter. I'm gonna continue enhancing the life of my students through practice of kicky punchy throwy stuff and by espousing virtuous behaviors. I hope that doesn't offend anyone. Peace, Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts 503-640-8400 www.martialartshillsboro.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:43:29 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] USA Wins a Second Bronze @ World Taekwondo Poomsae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net U.S.A. Wins a Second Bronze Medal at WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships November 5, 2007 INCHEON, SOUTH KOREA—The United States of America remained the only Western Hemisphere nation to ascend the medal stand after two days of competition at the 2nd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships at the Samsan World Gymnasium in Incheon, South Korea. Noreen Thackrey (California), competing in the 2nd Female Masters' Individual division, scored 7.67 with her performances of Ship-Jin and Ji-Tae, tying Australia for a Bronze Medal behind Turkey and Chinese Taipei. Thackrey, 56, led the division until she faltered briefly in her second performance and fell to third place. The previous day Thackrey and teammates Barbara Brand (California) and Akiko Reyes (California) won a first-ever Bronze Medal for the U.S.A. in the 2nd Female Team division. In today's competition Jason Hwang (California), Johnny Nguyen (Arizona), and Anthony Nguyen (Arizona, 1st Men's Team), Young-A Kim (California, Senior Female 1 division), Christi Maves (Oregon) and Jim Null (Oregon, 2nd Pair), Johnny Nguyen (Arizona, Senior Male 1), Thac Nguyen (California, Senior Male 2), Akiko Reyes (California, 2nd Senior Female), and Reggie Ubiadas (California, 1st Male Master) all were successful in the Cut-Off (preliminary) round though they did not advance past the Final Selection round into the Finals. Natalie Baker (California), Apri Bondurant (California), and Lauren Overs (California, 1st Female Team), and Young-A Kim (California) and Anthony Nguyen (Arizona, 1st Pairs) were eliminated in the Cut-Off round. Despite the meager medal count the U.S.A. fared much better today than at last year's 1st WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships in Seoul when only one U.S. athlete survived the Cut-Off round of competition and none received a medal. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] use of titles/terms in foreign languages Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:44:36 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This seemed pretty refreshing to me...maybe its an Oregon thing. -Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] use of titles/terms in foreign languages > Greetings Everyone, > > I teach a mixed martial art with a solid base of Changhun TKD and DZR > JJ...with a good dose of Aiki, Gohakukai karate and boxing...and I cannot > forget the HKD additions I have learned from DD list Masters Timmerman, > Burrese and Janisse. > > Throughout my time in MA since 1982 (yah, I know...I'm still a newbie to > some of you) I have experienced what can only be described as butchery of > language. From incorrect usage to massive mispronunciation, there have > been > some real zingers. > > My first karate instructor teaches mostly in English...he is Okinawan. My > Aikido teachers used the Japanese terms, but also their English > equivalents...both were fluent in Japanese. The JJ guys - all white boys. > Of my TKD instructors, some were Korean, others were not. The Korean ones > used mostly English in class, the others tried to use Korean. (saying > stuff > like 'chung greeeah' for choon bi etc.) > For those of you who speak other languages you know that changing a vowel > or > even an inflection can cause a totally different meaning. I find it > offensive when unconsciously incompetent folks use language > incorrectly...especially in MA...just to appease the gods of whatever MA > they practice. Native speakers hear some of those words and look at the > speaker with a 'WTF did you just say' look on their faces. > > I took action in high school by dating this hot Korean gal (who > uhhhh....helped me with my pronunciation.....ahh, those were good times) > > I have Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Euro, Hispanic, and English > folks > in my school, who have at one time or another referred to me by their > native > language word for teacher. I don't correct them if they use the terms. I > use Mr. or Sir as my official title. As has been posted already, I too > believe using the title when referring to yourself is incorrect. > > My first TKD school, run by a Korean, still uses the words Taekwon-Karate > Center on their patches, documents, website etc. using > Korean-Japanese-English to describe the dojang. > > I have a question. What do the Olympic wrestlers & boxers worldwide call > their instructors? I wonder if it is their native language word for > coach/instructor.......instead of the Greco/Roman - English equivalent. > > Anyway, some of you put way too much stock in a word. Look at the history > of KMA in north America. How many dojang called themselves dojo and had a > neon sign that said Korean Karate? Most average folks have heard the term > Sensei but have never heard Sabomnim/Kwangjangnim. > > Use whatever title you want. So long as your intent is just & honorable > and > your instructors and customers don't care, what does it really matter. > > I'm gonna continue enhancing the life of my students through practice of > kicky punchy throwy stuff and by espousing virtuous behaviors. I hope > that > doesn't offend anyone. > > Peace, > > Mark Gajdostik > TNT Martial Arts > 503-640-8400 > www.martialartshillsboro.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] use of titles/terms in foreign languages To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:24:08 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Anyway, some of you put way too much stock in a word. Look at the history > of KMA in north America. How many dojang called themselves dojo and had a > neon sign that said Korean Karate? Korean Karate? Yep, you can still hear/see that. Dojo? Not very often, neither now nor then. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ronnielynchburg@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 19:28:58 EST Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] on the use of titles. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Blankenship Red Dragon School of Korean Karate Tong Moo Kwon / Hapkido ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest