Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:48:21 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 14 #346 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Mr. Petrotta (Frank Clay) 2. honorary degrees (TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro) 3. RE degree (Shamus) 4. Masters Degrees (Jerry) 5. From another group: TKD and Chondogyo (Jye nigma) 6. RE: RE degree (Dennis Overall) 7. Re: Mr. Clay (Ken Platt) 8. utter nonsense (J R Hilland) 9. RE: utter nonsense (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:17:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr. Petrotta Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My credentials are not important. I no longer teach. But since you asked, I trained with Dong Seung Gyoo, I did train with Master Bowman, who was examined by Dong, who had a low ranking plaque from Gen Choi Hong Hi. I received ranking from him and Steve Bowman, which I did in fact earn. I also trained with Pak, Ho Sik and earned rank from him which cost me dearly in terms of hard work and sweat. Today my only affiliation is with the US Taekwondo Do Won who recertified me as a 6th Dan, mostly because I believe in their vision of reforming sport Taekwondo, which I think is very important because sport teaches youth a bus load of lessons. Now I'm sorry that you find my opinion offensive but should someone not want to be misleading, why would they append an honorary degree to their signature without the word "honorary" which happens to be the appropriate thing to do. Now Mr. Petrotta, martial art and academia ARE NOT in whole different worlds. The highest standard that I've been taught, notably in my Chinese training (under Vanegas Sifu - Shandong Black Tiger and no I'm not very good at it but it is fun - before you ask). When I studied Taijiquan with Clare Acs, which was many moons ago, she had us study "the Classics" which indicate the same thing. Pen and sword are supposed to be one. That is the ideal. Now I'm sorry that you feel the need to question my credentials. But if you note, I also don't call myself master, sifu, sabum, kwanjang or anything else. Just Frank. Just out of curiosity, how do you think someone claiming an honorary degree, without so denoting would fare in the real world? Do you think any major corporation would retain them? And you don't see an issue with this? My friend, it is not just my opinion, though I feel strongly about it because of my studies and how intense they were. Now I believe that enough time has been wasted on this. We've both said our peace and will simply have to agree to disagree. As you said, I don't have to like it and I never will. I've seen how things like this affect people first hand. If you'd like to continue this discussion, you are welcome to that cup of coffee or we can continue this offline. ~f. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro" To: Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:44:03 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] honorary degrees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net DDers, I give out one honorary black belt degree per year. I do a Hero program at my dojang where everyone above white belt must complete a Hero report. Adults can do a paper or bring in their hero, kids need to bring in their hero since they suck at doing written reports :-) I encourage students to find REAL heroes from our local area that inspire them to do good. People that do not seek or receive recognition for their efforts...not some 'hero' who makes 4.5 million per year hucking a basketball through a hoop.....but real heroes. When the hero comes in to class, we give them a nice framed Hero award signed by the student and myself. At year end, all student members vote on who was the best hero brought in during the year. At our annual banquet, that person receives an honorary Hero black belt degree which is an embroidered BB with TNT, and Hero soinso on it contained in a belt display box. #1. great for people to know about real friggin heroes in today's world. #2. people put their awards and degrees on the walls at their office and homes in visible places...great school name recognition and subliminal marketing. #3 so far all but one hero has tear'd up during the award presentation...thats how heartfelt recognition can be. #4 all awardees come to the banquet to meet each other...and we have gained several new students from the process...well worth the piece of paper and frame. #5 it makes me feel absolutely great to honor folks who make a difference in others lives. Fwiw, Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts 503-640-8400 www.martialartshillsboro.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:59:52 +1000 From: Shamus To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE degree Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi to everyone out there in the world of Martial Arts , my name is Shane ,I live in Townsville Australia .I have ben reading the comments about the people receiving a degree in Martial Arts from University. My only comment on this is ,Where is the self esteem and pride that goes with earning a degree in Martial Arts .This first journey from white belt to black/1st degree takes honestly with hard work sweat and tears about 4years.This can no way be compared with the same being given through University or any other substitute organizations that is not an authentic Martial Arts club. Me i am just an old artist who has been around for 34 years and still learning. Though i have been watching the denigration of Martial Arts over the years ,as the do gooders of the art keep watering down the original concepts of the arts. When will it stop?-- when the arts are no more ,especially Tae Kwon Do.As when i started it was a mans game and art, these days it is heading into kindergarten. Oh! i wish to see the day when the true art returns. What a joke receive a degree in the art with out the real sweat and tears, just about brings me to tears. Regards all out there in the world . I would like to open communication with other T K D Instructors so that i may learn new ways to conduct my classes , can any one help .If so here is my e/m --(vaungtau@optusnet.com.au) by the way i am a Vietnam Vetran was,stationed at NUIDAT Regards Black belt . Shane. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:46:33 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jerry Subject: [The_Dojang] Masters Degrees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To me this entire question seems to boil down to "assumptions". Here in the US, my belief is that folks hearing/seeing that someone has received a "Masters Degree" or a "PhD" are making the assumption that this was a degree earned at and rewarded by some accredited university/institution. Apparantly, I 've seen this term used with some folks in the martial arts where this is not the case, and it appears to me to be "false advertising" when someone claims those degrees. Other countries/communities may have other assumptions. It's certainly an "assumption" everyone I know would make. Thus, if someone claims such a "degree" and has received said degree through a different pathway and does not make that clear at the outset it appears deceptive. Please note, I am not saying these folks are being deceptive or intend to be deceptive, but that their use of the terminology within this society is perceived as being deceptive given the normative models. Jerry -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years" "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional" "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:07:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From another group: TKD and Chondogyo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dr Garnet recently asked me why did General Choi honour the founder of the religion Chondogyo. For those of you that do not know what we are talking about, one of the 2nd Dan patterns called “Eui-Am”, is actually the pseudonym of Son Byong-Hi, an independence movement leader in Korea, who changed the name of the once suppressed religion Dong Hak into Chondogyo, “Heavenly Way Religion”. Dong Hak (meaning Oriental Culture or Eastern Teaching) was a religion created by Choe Che-U in 1860. It is considered an indigenous Korean religion. Dong Hak, based on elements from Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Shamanism, and Roman Catholicism, was suppressed by the powers-that-be. The religion teaches that people are not separate from “Hanullim” (or God), and therefore equal. “However, [Choe] was viewed as a threat by the authorities because his theory of the unity of man and God promoted an equality of all humans that transcended social class or status. He was executed in 1864 on charges of misleading people and sowing discord in society.” In 1905 Son Byong-Hi proclaimed Dong Hak’s “revitalization under the name Ch’ŏndogyo.” Apparently the Korean king also adopted Chongdogyo and promoted it, adding to it some Buddhist and Roman Catholic rituals. The inevitable question is: “Why would Gen. Choi honour the initiator of a religion in this way?” It was after all himself that stressed that Taekwon-Do does not favour “religion, gender, race or ideology”. In my mind, the reference to the “Heavenly Way Religion” is two-fold. Firstly when Choe created Dong Hak (“Oriental Culture”), he did so as a revolt against the influx of Western thought in the Orient. It was specifically created in protest to Catholicism, which Choe viewed as “representative of the Western learning and ideas that were threatening the already staggering Chosŏn Kingdom.” Chondogyo, as an indigenously Korean religion, becomes a symbol for Korea, separate from all the invading foreign influences. In my opinion, the General’s reference to Chondogyo, is patriotically motivated, rather than religiously motivated. This is underscored by Gen. Choi titling the pattern “Eui-Am”. It is clearly to honour Son Byong-Hi " “leader of the Korean independence movement on March 1, 1919”. It seems that Gen. Choi’s choice in naming the pattern after Son Byong-Hi was motivated by patriotic motives, rather than promotion of the religion itself. If the General was religiously motivated he would probably have honoured the original founder of Dong Hak, rather than the independence fighter, Son Byong-Hi. If one is to search for traces of Chondogyo in Taekwon-Do, I think it would be in the idea that people are equal. This is stressed at least twice in the ITF Encyclopaedia. The one occasion, as already mentioned, in the Philosophy of Taekwon-Do that states that one should “be a willing teacher to anyone regardless of religion, gender, race or ideology.” The other occasion concerns wearing the dobok. In the dojang, dressed in our dobok, we are all equal, regardless of our social class outside of the dojang. The problem is that although Chondogyo taught the equality of people, it was exclusivist of foreigners and foreign ideologies. Clearly this is in opposition to Taekwon-Do which is inclusive of foreigners (“We shall unite with all men in a common brotherhood, without regard to religion, race, national or ideological boundaries”). Another trace of Chondogyo in Taekwon-Do might concern the search for an earthly utopia. Chondogyo teaches that paradise is not to be found in heaven, but should be created here on Earth. “It strives to convert our earthly society into a paradise (Heaven) on Earth. It attempts to transform the believers into intelligent moral beings with high social consciousness. In this respect, it could be seen as a humanistic socialism.” Gen. Choi made allusions to this in Part One of Taekwon-Do’s Moral Culture. Referring to an ideal society, he said: “…it is our obligation to build such a society for the people” and in the History of Taekwon-Do he said: “We shall dedicate ourselves to building a peaceful human society in which justice, morality, trust and humanism prevail”. There is little doubt that the General thought that Taekwon-Do could contribute to bettering the world and working towards something of a paradise on Earth. I doubt, however, that his motivation was religious in nature. Although there are some moral similarities between Chondogyo and Taekwon-Do, I don’t think we can read too much into it. There are moral similarities between Taekwon-Do and many other religions and ideologies (e.g. Confucianism). References: Choi, Hong-Hi. “ITF Encyclopaedia” Han, Suzanne Crowder. “Notes on Things Korean” http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9082320/Chondogyo#86125.hook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondogyo …ooOoo… Sabumnim Garnet, I hope you are more satisfied with this expanded answer, than the one I gave you over the weekend of the SA-Champs. Sincerely, Sanko --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Dennis Overall To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE degree Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:55:50 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You forgot blood, Shane. Blood, sweat, & tears. What about the five tenents of TKD? My first introduction to TKD was a backside kick to the gut when I was in SouthEast Asia. That was back in 1973. I was a part of the great expansion of TKD in MidWest USA. I know only one way to promote a student in rank. They must train and meet my requirements, the same requirements and standards past to me from my traditional Master. Any thing less is an insult to the art and dishonor to the student or future Master of the art. Dennis Overall > Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:59:52 +1000> From: vaungtau@optusnet.com.au> To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Subject: [The_Dojang] RE degree> > Hi to everyone out there in the world of Martial Arts , my name is > Shane ,I live in Townsville Australia .I have ben reading the comments > about the people receiving a degree in Martial Arts from University. > My only comment on this is ,Where is the self esteem and pride that > goes with earning a degree in Martial Arts .This first journey from > white belt to black/1st degree takes honestly with hard work sweat > and tears about 4years.This can no way be compared with the same being > given through University or any other substitute organizations that is > not an authentic Martial Arts club. Me i am just an old artist who > has been around for 34 years and still learning.> Though i have been watching the denigration of Martial Arts over the > years ,as the do gooders of the art keep watering down the original > concepts of the arts. When will it stop?-- when the arts are no more > ,especially Tae Kwon Do.As when i started it was a mans game and art, > these days it is heading into kindergarten. Oh! i wish to see the day > when the true art returns. What a joke receive a degree in the art > with out the real sweat and tears, just about brings me to tears. > Regards all out there in the world . I would like to open communication > with other T K D Instructors so that i may learn new ways to conduct > my classes , can any one help .If so here is my e/m > --(vaungtau@optusnet.com.au) by the way i am a Vietnam Vetran > was,stationed at NUIDAT Regards Black belt . Shane.> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGLM --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Ken Platt" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mr. Clay Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:14:47 -0600 Organization: Kenoli Farms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No doubt Jye, I am still trying to earn at least my CCDP. Ken Cisco Systems, Cattle Rancher and a Student of Taekwondo (Youn Wha ) :-) --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:16:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] utter nonsense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Michael, If you come up here (North Dakota), you can walk on water, drive your pickup, ATV or snowmobile down the boat ramp and keep going down a river or across a lake. You can park a building on it and drill a hole in it (a very common thing). Lots to do other than just walking on water! But don't try it in the summer, the locals will laugh at you! :) Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] utter nonsense Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:03:43 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net LOL....Jere...and hopefully the locals will pull me out of the river!! Michael Tomlinson> From: hapkido@wah.midco.net> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:16:53 -0600> Subject: [The_Dojang] utter nonsense> > << water.....it just has to be frozen and very very thick!!!>>>> > Michael, If you come up here (North Dakota), you can walk on water, drive> your pickup, ATV or snowmobile down the boat ramp and keep going down a> river or across a lake. You can park a building on it and drill a hole in it> (a very common thing). Lots to do other than just walking on water! But> don't try it in the summer, the locals will laugh at you! :) Jere R. Hilland> www.rrhapkido.com> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,200 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate. Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest