Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:54:00 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #19 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. combat systems vs. martial arts vs. martial sports et al. (TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro) 2. Double or single wrap Black belt (Doug) 3. Single Wrap Belt Photos (blueknightpi@att.net) 4. Single Wrap Belt (blueknightpi@att.net) 5. RE: How to tie a dobok ddi 101 (J R Hilland) 6. Re: Double or single wrap Black belt (Josh Nyberg) 7. RE: Double or single wrap Black belt (michael tomlinson) 8. RE: Single Wrap Belt (michael tomlinson) 9. European Taekwondo Qualification Tournament (The_Dojang) 10. Re: Double or single wrap Black Belt (aburrese@aol.com) 11. Re: combat systems vs. martial arts vs. martial sports et al. (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro" To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:11:48 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] combat systems vs. martial arts vs. martial sports et al. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net < after comparing it with regular Hapkido, I've found it skips much but> of the lower>level belts and concentrates on the actual defense techniques>> Greetings All, I teach a program at my school that I call C-4. It is the police combatives program I taught while I was a cop for 10 years...minus all the police stuff...boiled down, no nonsense self defense. I also teach a martial arts program that takes a hard working student many years to get a black belt rank. I will be awarding my first black belt in March to a student who has been working hard for over 5 years. The C-4 students learn what I compare to the 'Dark Side' of the force. The martial arts students learn the 'Jedi' way. C-4 is strong, faster to learn, and is very effective...many of the cops I trained feel it was the best thing they have ever learned when it came to DTs. Quite honestly, it does not take much to teach someone real self defense. Many MA waste a ton of time and energy confusing the matter of real SD with huge amounts of reps of a huge amount of techniques...which translates to a very slow SD learning process. Converting that knowledge into fight skill takes a mental jump. That being said, the end result of huge reps of many techniques makes for a Jedi. I have intermediates who could easily wipe the floor with graduates of my most advanced C-4 class. I have intermediates who could pummel any of the most advanced graduates of the police combatives program. The difference, like Mr. Tomlinson already stated is the repetition and mastery of...... .....wait, here it comes.......THE BASICS!!!!! Without the basics you lack the ability to adapt to an ever changing situation. The violent dynamics of real fights require simplicity, and the more in depth your knowledge the better your physical technique. I can teach someone to fight, and much of that is mental preparation and getting their mind wrapped around the concepts---not the techniques. Once their head is screwed on right, the physical stuff is easy. Many martial artists have an incredible repetiore of physical techniques, but not the mental side of the fight. If they get the mental side down, then they are forces to be reconned with. The simplicity I teach in my C-4 class is functional and effective, but martial "ARTS" it is not. If you are learning something that has the same name as a martial art, but 'skips' basic steps, you are not practicing a martial art, you are doing a combatives system. Call it like it is. There is nothing wrong with doing straight combatives, and nothing wrong with doing an art that has no basis in reality---that's why it is art. I would guess a large number of the OGs on this list have a pretty good handle on what part of their stuff is art, and what parts are real. When you practice the dark side of the force, but call it the same as the Jedi way, some o' them Jedi are gonna call you out and show you whose light sabre is bigger..... Thanks for letting me Geek Out Ray, Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts 503-640-8400 www.martialartshillsboro.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Doug" To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:43:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Double or single wrap Black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey hold on!! I didn't tell my instructor I didn't want a double belt, he asked me if I wanted a single or double, as thru the belt ranks he's awarded me both singles and doubles. I have high respect for my instructor! You didn't read it right, cause I would not show disrespect. His training has a profound impact on my new ability to defend myself. I have now more confidence and some strategy. I am always careful of my words. I come here to the digest requesting information so I don't make the mistakes in the dojo. The belt was probably crossed & wrapped incorrectly, right. Got it, layered, not crossed. double wrap. fine. Thanks! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:14:11 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Single Wrap Belt Photos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here is a link with a number of photos of a single wrap belt. Largest Hapkiod School in Chicago. http://www.hapkido.ws/photos.html Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 4 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:03:48 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Single Wrap Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I trained with GM Hyun in Chicago in the early ‘80’s we wore a single wrap belt tied on the side. It looked like half the knot on a shoelace. If you scroll almost to the end of this web page http://modernhapkido.org/history.html you can see a picture of GM Hyun…look closely at the way his belt is tied. GM Hyun, Kwang Sik was a student of GM Kim, Jung Yoon - one of GM Choi, Yong Sool's first students. Kim's style was named Moo Sool Won until the name "Hapkido" was adopted. Another name for this style of Hapkido is Han Pul. Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:28:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: How to tie a dobok ddi 101 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I started to type a reply as I have NEVER seen a single wrap belt in the KMA or JMA for that matter. But then I read Michael's and then Ray's posts so I will emphasize what my response would have been as we do have the same mind set (kinda scary). Although I am curious, what do you do with the rest of the belt? Do you have another yard or so of belt just flopping around? <<>> I have to ask what kind of mats are being used or do you have an abnormal spinal curve (scoliosis)? I have taken hard falls on asphalt (in my younger days) and never had that problem, but then I have known folks with scoliosis who have that problem even on the softest of mats. <<>> Just to interject a thought, if you have no basic motion, isn't is sort of like building a house and skipping the whole foundation part and building only the walls and the roof? <<>> The last quote from Ray was just worth repeating! Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:30:53 -0600 From: "Josh Nyberg" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Double or single wrap Black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net With regards to the vast majority of the regular contributors to this list, you have been doing Hapkido, or another korean art longer than I've been alive so my opinion will not carry much weight. However, I have been studying hapkido for almost 3 years now under Master Hilland and in my brief time on the mats I have experienced pain in a variety of different scenarios but I would have to agree that I have never once felt pain/discomfort due to my belt while doing a roll or a fall, and at this point I still I fall/roll like a brick not like a feather. Josh Nyberg Red River Hapkido www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Double or single wrap Black belt Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:53:08 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry bro.....I must of read it wrong...it came off to me as being a little crazy and I was thinking that some of your other posts were nothing like that one, you had me scratching my head in disbelief...like I said earlier...I am a bonehead... Michael Tomlinson> From: dugy01@msn.com> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:43:14 -0500> Subject: [The_Dojang] Double or single wrap Black belt> > Hey hold on!!> > I didn't tell my instructor I didn't want a double belt, he asked me if I> wanted a single or double, as thru the belt ranks he's awarded me both singles> and doubles. I have high respect for my instructor! You didn't read it> right, cause I would not show disrespect. His training has a profound impact> on my new ability to defend myself. I have now more confidence and some> strategy. I am always careful of my words. I come here to the digest> requesting information so I don't make the mistakes in the dojo.> > The belt was probably crossed & wrapped incorrectly, right.> > Got it, layered, not crossed. double wrap. fine.> > Thanks!> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx --__--__-- Message: 8 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Single Wrap Belt Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:58:42 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That is the first time I have EVER seen anyone tie a korean belt like that in 39 years!!! LOL Michael Tomlinson> From: blueknightpi@att.net> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:03:48 +0000> Subject: [The_Dojang] Single Wrap Belt> > When I trained with GM Hyun in Chicago in the early ‘80’s we wore a single wrap belt tied on the side. It looked like half the knot on a shoelace. If you scroll almost to the end of this web page > http://modernhapkido.org/history.html> you can see a picture of GM Hyun…look closely at the way his belt is tied.> GM Hyun, Kwang Sik was a student of GM Kim, Jung Yoon - one of GM Choi, Yong Sool's first students. > > Kim's style was named Moo Sool Won until the name "Hapkido" was adopted. Another name for this style of Hapkido is Han Pul. > > Vic Cushing> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:01:30 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] European Taekwondo Qualification Tournament Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net European Taekwondo Qualification Tournament to Kick off in Istanbul, Turkey on Jan. 26 for 2-Day Run 25 Jan The 2008 WTF European Taekwondo Qualification Tournament for the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games kicks off on Jan. 26 for a two-day run in Istanbul, Turkey. The qualifying event, which will take place at the Ahmet Comert Sport Hall in downtown Istanbul, is expected to draw 131 athletes, including 56 females, from 42 European countries. The European qualifier, the last of the WTF's five Continental Union Olympic qualification tournaments, will be officiated by 26 international referees selected among the 184 referees who participated in the WTF International Referee Training Camp for the Beijing Olympic Games held at Woosuk University in Korea in July 2007. The WTF is to finalize the best 29 referees for the Beijing Olympics. "We are ready to start the European qualifying event and expect a great success," said a senior official at the Organizing Committee. The opening day of the European Qualification Tournament will feature four weight categories: the men's -58kg, the men's -80kg, the women's -49kg and the women's -67kg, while the second and final day will feature another four weight divisions: the men's -68kg, the men's +80kg, the women's -57kg and the women's +67kg. Through the European qualifier, a total of 24 slots will be allocated for the Beijing Olympic Games. Each member national association is allowed to field a maximum two male and two female players out of four male and four female Olympic weight categories. The top three athletes from each of the eight Olympic weight divisions at the European qualifier will qualify their National Olympic Committee a place in the respective event. A total of 128 athletes are scheduled to compete in the taekwondo competition of the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games, during which two bronze medals in each weight categories will be awarded for the first time. "The WTF places the highest priority on ensuring fair judging and refereeing at all taekwondo competitions," said WTF President Chungwon Choue in his congratulatory message for the European qualifier. WTF President Choue said, "As a result of the WTF's stepped-up referee training, for the first time in the federation's 34-year history, not a single protest was lodged at the WTF World Taekwondo Qualification Tournament in Manchester, England, and at subsequent continental qualifiers in Africa, Asia and Oceania." "Fair judging and refereeing is the key to the future of taekwondo as an Olympic sport and its is our responsibility to ensure that only the best athletes become worthy champions." --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:32:02 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Double or single wrap Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So since your Hapkido "skips" many of the lower belts that means it skips most of the basics and repetitions needed to become proficient in HKD,, Dude are you for real??? Do you actually think that by skipping belts you are actually better in HKD and self defense??? Wow...you don't like the belt or learning the lower belt levels and NOW you are ready to become a black belt in HKD???? Sounds like in about two more years you'll be ready to go out on your own and start your own style of HKD....simply incredible, I'm astounded..... Michael Tomlinson *********************** Leave it to Michael to tell it as it is... :-) I too wonder why we are even discussing the length of a belt. Personally, I favor the double wrap, since a single wrap does not look as good, does not hold uniform closed as well, and if not wrapped around twice the ends of the belt would hang way too low... :-) Heck, I've helped real skinny people wrap an extra time around. I've never found an extra wrap to be uncomfortable. I've never even heard that till now. But then I read Mike's post and have to agree with all of it, not just about wrapping a belt, but I wonder about the comment that Combat HKD skips stuff.. Hmmmm I don't want to get into bashing of an art. There is too much of that already. I do know that in the Combat HKD group I have met both good and bad. But I guess you can say that about anything. The good seem to have a traditional HKD background first. The bad seem to have no other HKD background. And when I say bad, I don't mean bad people, just a lacking in a lot of what many of us consider hapkido. But the comment that it skips a lot of the lower belt stuff makes me wonder. I teach white belts as one of the self-defense techniques they must know a throat shot. That can be pretty effective. Why skip it? For what it's worth, the curriculum I teach is basically the KHF curriculum with some additions. This is the curriculum I was taught in Korea, and continue to teach. Another interesting thing regarding the lower belt techniques. I tell my white belt students the same thing my instructor told me in Korea. Learn these techniques well and later it will be easy. The joint locks that I teach white belts are all from a wrist grab. It is not that you need to know so many things to do from a wrist grab, it is a teaching tool to teach the basics of motion and locks. As a student advanced up the belts, those same locks come back around with different attacks. So if you master the lock at the white belt level, it is much easier to learn the later techniques. In my dvds, I still teach the wrist grab version first in many cases, and then go on to show all the variations. This is because I did not make my dvds follow the curriculum. I wanted them to stand alone. So I teach a white belt technique, followed by various other belt techniques on up to various black belt techniques. But when you are going to learn a system, you should learn each belt level well before going on. And if done right, they continue to build on each other. If you want to see some of what I teach, here is a clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN8i6JrHs2o Everything builds off of the basics.... Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com For Your Safety - For Your Success ----- ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] combat systems vs. martial arts vs. martial sports et al. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:48:59 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I teach a program at my school that I call C-4. It is the police combatives > program I taught while I was a cop for 10 years...minus all the police > stuff...boiled down, no nonsense self defense. > ... > ... > ... > > Thanks for letting me Geek Out Ray, np. how bout more? can you give us a quick overview of C-4? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest