Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:03:00 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #41 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Testing Your Own Child (B.J. Pritchett) (Dennis Overall) 2. RE: Those Parents (Jeff Yeagley) 3. Re: Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? (Jye nigma) 4. Re: Sensei's in TKD (steven riggs) 5. RE: Sensei's in TKD (Dennis Overall) 6. Re: RE: Those Parents (lockea@pakskarate.com) 7. Re: Sensei's in TKD (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Dennis Overall To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Testing Your Own Child (B.J. Pritchett) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:38:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well said Mark If an instructor is of high integrity, then the testing will be as it should be. If someone has a problem with that, then that person with doubt must not have the trust or have faith in the instructor that is testing the subject. All we have is our honor, our faith , our integrity. The physical is a small part of what we truely are. Dennis Overall > In response to whether or not to test your own son for Cho Dahn:> > From my point of view, I would run this testing as you would any other.> If your instructor is invited for other tests, then invite him, if not,> then don't.> > Sure, you run the risk of some thinking your son's testing is not> impartial, however you also set the stage that other students may want> the privilege of testing in front of your instructor at future testings> - it runs both ways. In fact, what would students think if they knew> your instructor was only brought in for your son's sake?> > The discipline, integrity and respect must be part of the normal> curriculum, and not just defined by testing. If there is consistency in> training and testing, nobody (including your son) should question> either.> > For my part, my son actually failed a color belt testing when I was on> the panel. He knows my expectations are high and his response to that> seems to make those testings more challenging. I think it's easier for> him when I am not on the testing panel.> > Best wishes for whatever path you choose. Just asking the question shows> your involvement and concern for your son.> > > In the Spirit,> Mark Lasich> www.karatequips.com> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your HotmailŪ-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:18:55 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Those Parents Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I offer "those" parents a free month of lessons. This does a couple of things: 1. they typically realize that it's harder than it looks, and 2. they better understand what the instructors are working with their kids on. Our current parent intro group (made up of parents who have had kids with us for a year or more) are picking the techniques up surprisingly quickly, and surprisingly well! I don't know about black belt, but there may be something to that osmosis theory after all. Sincerely, Jeff Yeagley http://www.WeTrainHarder.com snip "she is one of those typical Dojang Moms that think they know more than the Master/Sensei/Instructor via sitting in the Dojang and watching her children for 12 years. Black Belt by Osmosis, I know you have all experienced those Moms and Dads." --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think people are viewing this question in a different light. To me the question is asking if your training has prepared you for conflict with another trained person. So, if someone trained in the MA is an attacker and attacks you, do you think your training has properly prepared you. This is not a question of whos "sacks" are bigger. It's really a good question. We train to defend ourselves which will most likely work against people who aren't trained in MA, but against someone who is also trained in MA how will you fare? Think of knife defense you train in for example, how will it do against someone trained in kali let's say. Jye Christian Briggs wrote: I ask myself this question all of the time. One thought on this subject...I find myself not really needing to assert myself, or prove myself physically out side of the dojang. I wonder what percentage of other trained people are out there bullying, attacking or what ever? Sometimes when I look at a Master, or someone who is gifted in the martial arts...I think to myself "kinda of a dorky looking dude...and he can totally kick a$$" Brings to mind that old saying about judging books by covers. Just a couple of random thoughts while Im trying to get some work done. -Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jye nigma" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? >I found this question on another group and found it interesting: > > "basically asking the question are u prepared to fight an opp who is > trained? > Most people expect to be facing an untrained opp; would u be shocked to > face someone w/legitimate skills? > > Secondly have u ever fought someone w/legitimate skills or had a > confrontation w/someone w/legitimate skills" > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:41:00 -0800 (PST) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gentlemen; At first I was not going to participate in this discussion as it brings out strong personal feelings and I would not wish to be seen as striving to be offensive by strongly disagreeing. If I understand the general tone of a number of the letters dealing with Tae Kwon Do or perhaps instructors for any of the Korean arts using titles that are non-traditional i.e. Japanese, English etc. 1. I would strongly suggest not quickly making judgment calls about whether an instructor is a truly qualified teacher and perhaps whether he is actually a master instructor based on which word or title is used to address him. 2. There are a number of reasons why these things could take place and without you knowing the actual circumstances behind them. It seems to me that you are being very quick to judge someone you have never met and do not know the story behind what takes place in that school. 3. I could list for you names of high ranked martial arts instructors who came to have these ranks by instructors who are above reproach. 4. In my opinion you have every right to conduct your class as you see fit. You have every right to feel that a class should be conducted in a traditional manner if that is how you were taught. 5. I do not think you have the right to stand in judgment of an instructor whom you have never met and have no personal knowledge of their background. 6. My first two instructors both have dan ranks from Grandmaster Hwang Kee in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. 7. My first instructor was a direct student who had earned at least one dan rank from Grandmaster J.C. Shin of the World Tang Soo Do Assoc. 8. When I started in the martial arts I was 12 years old and took Judo from a Japanese instructor. I knew to call him Sensei. 9. When I was 19 I signed up to take Moo Duk Kwan from an American instructor who other students called Sensei. When his instructor would visit he would be addressed it would seem interchangeably between Sensei and Master. I never had any reason to think that the title Sensei was anything other than a title of respect towards my teacher. The point I am trying to make is that I was not a big tournament person usually just competing in tournaments run by one of my instructors or another black belt in the association. I was around and met few martial artists apart from those in my school or an associate school. There was no contact in my martial arts world where anyone used for example SaBumNim or Kyo Sa Nim. It was not until I moved almost 600 miles to another state and met some other Tang Soo Do people that I was introduced to Korean arts instructors who used a great deal of Korean terminology in their classes. When I would visit to work out I was very frustrated as the senior instructor would call out instructions and the rest of the class started doing a certain combination of blocks and strikes and I am left standing there as a 2nd dan not being able to participate until I first saw what they were doing. Some time later I traveled about 200+ miles to a seminar at a fairly well known Tang Soo Do masters school. I had spoken on the phone with this master and was graciously invited to participate. At the first session they had the practice of the highest ranking black belt directly beneath the senior instructor bowed the class in with a series of instructions involving stance change, kneeling, meditating etc. I had seen this done once or twice but was unfamiliar with the language. I know my face must have been red being called on without knowing ahead of time about the practice. I had to apologize and state that I was sorry but I was unfamiliar with their opening ceremony and the proper commands to give. It sounds as if most if not all of you who are instructors and even masters in Korean arts had the opportunity to learn in a school and underneath someone who was fairly traditional in their approach. What I would like to suggest is that I am not any less a 5th dan master now than you simply because I was taught underneath a different organization with different guidelines. I had no choice or even knowledge that what I was learning was clearly very nontraditional and it would seem offensive to many. It does strike me that to judge me as less qualified to teach proper Tang Soo Do, or any of the other arts I have earned black belts in, as being unfair, short sighted and judgmental. This type of negative judgment of me certainly does not strike me as to be in the spirit of the arts as I understand them and attempt to teach my students. S.C. Riggs Master Mark Seidel wrote: Hi All , Wow the response that I have gotten from that original e-mail was helpful. I thought would I would give you the reason behind it. I work for a school grades k-8th, that has Taekwondo as it's PE program, we are members of USKMAF. My new Principal had 2 of her own children who are now adults that took (allegedly TKD for 12 years), she is one of those typical Dojang Moms that think they know more than the Master/Sensei/Instructor via sitting in the Dojang and watching her children for 12 years. Black Belt by Osmosis, I know you have all experienced those Moms and Dads. Consequently as my boss she comes up with the most bizarre statements and requests, most notably thinking that children can promote through the belt system taking one, one hour class per week. I was given a certificate to hand out to students that wore their uniforms ( a t-shirt and sweat pants and belt) 100% per semester, under my signature was the designation Master Mark Seidel, Master, Sensei, Instructor, I hasten to add that I have been called Master Mark for 8 years. When I asked that the designation be corrected my boss blurted out that her kids called their TKD instructor Sensei. That's when I knew the jig was up. When I asked her the name of the school/ Sensei she couldn't remember either. Imagine taking your kids from white belt to Black Belt over a 12 year period and you don't remember the name of the school but you remember every aspect of the curriculum. How many checks do you think she wrote either to the school or the Sensei ? Ray Terry put It best when posed with the original question of a TKD Master being called Sensei, he said " he's probably neither". Hope to see most of you in Jackson at GM West's seminar this month. Mark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Sensei Steven Riggs Master Instructor American Defensive Arts Master of Philosophy in Martial Science stevencriggs@yahoo.com www.americandefensivearts.org 828-322-6904 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Dennis Overall To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:29:02 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmmmm, I'm not being judgemental. I ask this one question. Do the people that qualify to be black belt under this individual expect to be addressed as Sensei or Sam Bau Nim? Dennis Overall > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:41:00 -0800> From: stevencriggs@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> > Gentlemen;> At first I was not going to participate in this discussion as it brings out strong personal feelings and I would not wish to be seen as striving to be offensive by strongly disagreeing. If I understand the general tone of a number of the letters dealing with Tae Kwon Do or perhaps instructors for any of the Korean arts using titles that are non-traditional i.e. Japanese, English etc.> 1. I would strongly suggest not quickly making judgment calls about whether an instructor is a truly qualified teacher and perhaps whether he is actually a master instructor based on which word or title is used to address him. > 2. There are a number of reasons why these things could take place and without you knowing the actual circumstances behind them. It seems to me that you are being very quick to judge someone you have never met and do not know the story behind what takes place in that school. > 3. I could list for you names of high ranked martial arts instructors who came to have these ranks by instructors who are above reproach. > 4. In my opinion you have every right to conduct your class as you see fit. You have every right to feel that a class should be conducted in a traditional manner if that is how you were taught. > 5. I do not think you have the right to stand in judgment of an instructor whom you have never met and have no personal knowledge of their background. > 6. My first two instructors both have dan ranks from Grandmaster Hwang Kee in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. > 7. My first instructor was a direct student who had earned at least one dan rank from Grandmaster J.C. Shin of the World Tang Soo Do Assoc. > 8. When I started in the martial arts I was 12 years old and took Judo from a Japanese instructor. I knew to call him Sensei.> 9. When I was 19 I signed up to take Moo Duk Kwan from an American instructor who other students called Sensei. When his instructor would visit he would be addressed it would seem interchangeably between Sensei and Master. I never had any reason to think that the title Sensei was anything other than a title of respect towards my teacher. > The point I am trying to make is that I was not a big tournament person usually just competing in tournaments run by one of my instructors or another black belt in the association. I was around and met few martial artists apart from those in my school or an associate school. There was no contact in my martial arts world where anyone used for example SaBumNim or Kyo Sa Nim. It was not until I moved almost 600 miles to another state and met some other Tang Soo Do people that I was introduced to Korean arts instructors who used a great deal of Korean terminology in their classes. When I would visit to work out I was very frustrated as the senior instructor would call out instructions and the rest of the class started doing a certain combination of blocks and strikes and I am left standing there as a 2nd dan not being able to participate until I first saw what they were doing. > Some time later I traveled about 200+ miles to a seminar at a fairly well known Tang Soo Do masters school. I had spoken on the phone with this master and was graciously invited to participate. At the first session they had the practice of the highest ranking black belt directly beneath the senior instructor bowed the class in with a series of instructions involving stance change, kneeling, meditating etc. I had seen this done once or twice but was unfamiliar with the language. I know my face must have been red being called on without knowing ahead of time about the practice. I had to apologize and state that I was sorry but I was unfamiliar with their opening ceremony and the proper commands to give. > It sounds as if most if not all of you who are instructors and even masters in Korean arts had the opportunity to learn in a school and underneath someone who was fairly traditional in their approach. What I would like to suggest is that I am not any less a 5th dan master now than you simply because I was taught underneath a different organization with different guidelines. > I had no choice or even knowledge that what I was learning was clearly very nontraditional and it would seem offensive to many. It does strike me that to judge me as less qualified to teach proper Tang Soo Do, or any of the other arts I have earned black belts in, as being unfair, short sighted and judgmental. This type of negative judgment of me certainly does not strike me as to be in the spirit of the arts as I understand them and attempt to teach my students. > S.C. Riggs> > Master Mark Seidel wrote:> Hi All ,> > > > Wow the response that I have gotten from that original e-mail was helpful. I> thought would I would give you the reason behind it.> > > > I work for a school grades k-8th, that has Taekwondo as it's PE program, we> are members of USKMAF. My new Principal had 2 of her own children who are> now adults that took (allegedly TKD for 12 years), she is one of those> typical Dojang Moms that think they know more than the> Master/Sensei/Instructor via sitting in the Dojang and watching her children> for 12 years. Black Belt by Osmosis, I know you have all experienced those> Moms and Dads.> > > > Consequently as my boss she comes up with the most bizarre statements and> requests, most notably thinking that children can promote through the belt> system taking one, one hour class per week.> > > > I was given a certificate to hand out to students that wore their uniforms (> a t-shirt and sweat pants and belt) 100% per semester, under my signature> was the designation Master Mark Seidel, Master, Sensei, Instructor, I hasten> to add that I have been called Master Mark for 8 years. When I asked that> the designation be corrected my boss blurted out that her kids called their> TKD instructor Sensei. That's when I knew the jig was up. When I asked her> the name of the school/ Sensei she couldn't remember either. Imagine taking> your kids from white belt to Black Belt over a 12 year period and you don't> remember the name of the school but you remember every aspect of the> curriculum. How many checks do you think she wrote either to the school or> the Sensei ?> > > > Ray Terry put It best when posed with the original question of a TKD Master> being called Sensei, he said " he's probably neither". Hope to see most of> you in Jackson at GM West's seminar this month.> > > > Mark> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net> > > > Sensei Steven Riggs> Master Instructor> American Defensive Arts> Master of Philosophy in Martial Science> stevencriggs@yahoo.com> www.americandefensivearts.org > 828-322-6904> > > ---------------------------------> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:57:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Those Parents From: lockea@pakskarate.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would like to second what Master Yeagley has said. I have a very high rate of success convincing parents of younger students to enroll by doing the same thing. They come to class and see what we have to offer and eventually realize that there are distinct benefits to the training for people of all ages. Honestly, I can't see running a successful school w/o recruiting parents and siblings. It only makes sense. Side note: Nice to see you on here Master Yeagley. I live in LS and have my school in Belton. I have heard of you guys for many years. All good things. Master Aaron Locke United Tang Soo Do Federation & Sho-Rei-Shobu-Kan www.kansascity@pakskarate.com > I offer "those" parents a free month of lessons. This does a couple of > things: 1. they typically realize that it's harder than it looks, and 2. > they better understand what the instructors are working with their kids > on. > Our current parent intro group (made up of parents who have had kids with > us > for a year or more) are picking the techniques up surprisingly quickly, > and > surprisingly well! I don't know about black belt, but there may be > something to that osmosis theory after all. > > Sincerely, > > Jeff Yeagley > http://www.WeTrainHarder.com > > > snip > "she is one of those typical Dojang Moms that think they know more than > the > Master/Sensei/Instructor via sitting in the Dojang and watching her > children > for 12 years. Black Belt by Osmosis, I know you have all experienced those > Moms and Dads." > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:01:32 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Some things are not shades of gray.... some things are black and white. IMHO, a back kick, even tho it may be perfectly executed, should not be called a front kick. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest