Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:17:00 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #42 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sensei's in TKD (daomyer@aol.com) 2. trained vs untrained (Robert Wood) 3. Sensei (Brian Beach) 4. Re: Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? (Christian Briggs) 5. Sensei's in TKD (Gordon Okerstrom) 6. testing your child and sensei (J R Hilland) 7. RE: Sensei in TKD 2 (Master Mark Seidel) 8. Sensei's in TKD (Gordon Okerstrom) 9. Re: Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? (Ray) 10. Re: Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? (Christian Briggs) 11. Re: sensei in TKD (aburrese@aol.com) 12. Martial Art Museum Closes (aburrese@aol.com) 13. Re: Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:08:01 -0500 From: daomyer@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The question though for me is this. Now that you have continued your journey and learned more about the culture and history, which title do you use. I ask because I too started with a Korean Master who at the time mixed Japanese names. I also watched the pride of bringing the Korean back as it became popular and understood here what it was. The information of then and now is very different. Given that I would think that even haven had that title with more understanding and knowledge greater respect would follow and the tittles would shift to the appropriate designation. That's why I would expect the higher level teacher to know and use the right terminology today. That does not take away from the skill set its just another expectation of whats expected in whole package. Cheers, Dave O. -----Original Message----- From: steven riggs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD Ghttp://the-dojang.net ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Robert Wood" Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:31:09 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] trained vs untrained Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First, we need to define trained. The military teaches unarmed combatives (as they are known today), prisons have become Criminal Universities were thugs receive training in a number of things, of which fighting is paramount. The whole MMA phenomenon has brought a whole new mentality/ persona (read swaggering and confrontational) in to the gym/dojang/dojo/school. I have trained for the Golden Gloves, I am a tradition KMA black belt, and a retried USAF Security Policeman. Those trained in a traditional manner tend to havemanners. I have faced off against both the trained and the untrained, on duty and off duty. In all circumstances hits were scored and injuries were inflected by me and on me. IMHO it is better to avoid a fight, however when NO other opinion exists it is GO TIME and I prefer to be trained facing an untrained opponent. iHs, Robert L. Wood I am careful not to confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is Gods business. Michael J. Fox __________________________________________________________________ Do an Internet search for "419 Scam" to learn all about the dirty Africans who sign up for free email accounts to send out spams lying about having millions of dollars to share with you. Discuss martial arts & Christianity at http://www.karateforchrist.com Get your own emal service at ZZN.COM. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:29:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sensei Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you know the proper term why would you continue to use the wrong one? It's not like we live in a cultural void these days - i.e. internet, books, videos, TV, seminars etc. On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:03 AM, the_dojang- request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > It sounds as if most if not all of you who are instructors and even > masters in Korean arts had the opportunity to learn in a school and > underneath someone who was fairly traditional in their approach. > What I would like to suggest is that I am not any less a 5th dan > master now than you simply because I was taught underneath a > different organization with different guidelines. > I had no choice or even knowledge that what I was learning was > clearly very nontraditional and it would seem offensive to many. It > does strike me that to judge me as less qualified to teach proper > Tang Soo Do, or any of the other arts I have earned black belts in, > as being unfair, short sighted and judgmental. This type of > negative judgment of me certainly does not strike me as to be in the > spirit of the arts as I understand them and attempt to teach my > students. > S.C. Riggs --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:17:17 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interesting question about the knife defense. I have learned a few defenses against knuife attacks, but some of them had the attacker coming at me with the knife (ice pick grip) held like a slasher in an old 80's b movie. After a bit (small bit) of training in Kali, both knife and stick...I am sure that a trained attacker would never do that. It certianly isnt one of the first 5 attack lines anyway. I am fairly certian that I trained person could slice me up unless I had acces to a longer stick...even then maybe. Time to break out the running shoes. -Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jye nigma" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? >I think people are viewing this question in a different light. To me the >question is asking if your training has prepared you for conflict with >another trained person. So, if someone trained in the MA is an attacker and >attacks you, do you think your training has properly prepared you. > > This is not a question of whos "sacks" are bigger. It's really a good > question. We train to defend ourselves which will most likely work against > people who aren't trained in MA, but against someone who is also trained > in MA how will you fare? Think of knife defense you train in for example, > how will it do against someone trained in kali let's say. > > Jye > > > Christian Briggs wrote: > I ask myself this question all of the time. One thought on this > subject...I > find myself not really needing to assert myself, or prove myself > physically > out side of the dojang. I wonder what percentage of other trained people > are out there bullying, attacking or what ever? > > Sometimes when I look at a Master, or someone who is gifted in the martial > arts...I think to myself "kinda of a dorky looking dude...and he can > totally > kick a$$" Brings to mind that old saying about judging books by covers. > > Just a couple of random thoughts while Im trying to get some work done. > > -Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jye nigma" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:45 PM > Subject: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? > > >>I found this question on another group and found it interesting: >> >> "basically asking the question are u prepared to fight an opp who is >> trained? >> Most people expect to be facing an untrained opp; would u be shocked to >> face someone w/legitimate skills? >> >> Secondly have u ever fought someone w/legitimate skills or had a >> confrontation w/someone w/legitimate skills" >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> _______________________________________________ >> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members >> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:17:19 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think it goes to the word MASTER. If the intention is to pass on the knowledge, then it should be to pass on ALL the knowledge. The origins, the founders, the ideals, the history, the culture, the methods, the intent and of course the techniques as entrusted to the student by the master with the intent of that student becoming the master. Then, it is incumbent on the present master to pass on ALL the knowledge et all. THAT is a MASTER of that discipline. However, if the intention is to train fighters in more than one discipline so as to make a "well-rounded" fighter, then attaining the title of master would have to be suspect. For what would they be a master of? What art did they pass on? Sure they are good fighters. Sure they teach a good curriculum. Sure their students are formidable, honorable fighters. But, is there a master present? No. There is a head instructor, no matter how good at fighting or teaching, he or she is not a true master of any one discipline. They may have the time in rank but, a MASTER of a discipline is the vessel of that discipline. The fount from where that knowledge flows. When I hear the word master, I expect that if I ask that master a question about that discipline, I would get the true, authoritative answer. If it says Korean Karate on the door or the instructor uses Japanese terms to teach a Korean art, or vice versa, he/she has compromised themselves and their art and I would not consider them a true master of that discipline. Just like we teach all the techniques, even the ones that don't work so well for us, we pass on ALL the knowledge entrusted to us. It is a responsibility, a trust. If we change the teaching, if we change the terminology, if we change the history to suit our own goals, we betray that trust. Sure a master can add to the discipline. Sure a master can improve the technique, but to be called a master of a discipline one must devote oneself to the study, practice and legacy of that discipline. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:18:08 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] testing your child and sensei Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We don't have children, my 45 year old baby brother fulfilled the grandfather class for my folks just as Jennifer's younger sister did. But, with that said, I have seen MANY good MA players test family members and they were actually harder on them during the test/grading then the rest of the dojang population. Just a different point of view... <<>> Got to completely agree with that statement. If you grow oranges and call them tomatoes, you really should know better... Last year I taught a hapkido class at the local judo club in the state next door. The instructor went out of his way to learn how to say Sabumnim and to teach his students the word. I really was impressed. I never asked him to do this or discussed it with him. But in my mind, that speaks volumes about his character and ethics in the MA... Using Japanese terms like sensei/dojo/dogi is a discredit (and down right disrespectful, yes, disrespectful) to the KMA and those teachers (they are still around) that tell horror stories (and have the scars) about the abuse by the Japanese during the most recent occupation of Korea. I know several and I know that if I used those terms around them, after I woke up, I would be told why I made such a mistake.. It would be a lot worse than walking up to the JCS and calling him a Ensign. JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:24:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sensei in TKD 2 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I respect and cherish this forum and believe my point is being convoluted. As it turns out this Sensei/Master is neither just as Ray predicted, I checked. That doesn't mean that somewhere in this universe there aren't qualified Masters that call themselves Sensei,Sifu, Kwang ja nim, Sabumnim. Mr. Jones, Dr Jones, Professor Jones, just as TKD and other Martial Arts schools for years put up Karate signs. A rose by any other name yada yada... The proliferation of conversions from single art schools to MMA is rampant in my area, I have known that these schools are run by qualified persons in a single or double art that now seem to be ranked in 5-6 arts. I would never judge someone by their title but as we all know titles are used capriciously and you don't always have to see the dog poo to know you stepped in it. There were many other factors in my bosses recollection of how those classes were taught that caused me to address the esteemed members of this board for their valued opinions. Mark -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:03 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #41 - 7 msgs Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:51:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sensei's in TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland wrote: If you grow oranges and call them tomatoes, you really should know better... Excellent sir. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:26:29 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Interesting question about the knife defense. I have learned a few defenses > against knuife attacks, but some of them had the attacker coming at me with > the knife (ice pick grip) held like a slasher in an old 80's b movie. After > a bit (small bit) of training in Kali, both knife and stick...I am sure that > a trained attacker would never do that. Well, don't be so sure. The knife portion of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali will often use a knife in this fashion. Their view is that the knife we're most likely to have on our person is a short blade pocket knife. Given that, they feel that the knife in earth/reverse/ice-pick grip is the better way to go. Or so I understand... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:43:10 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I meant held ice pick hand and are straight over your head ie Norman Bates and the likes. I actually like ice pick grip. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? >> Interesting question about the knife defense. I have learned a few >> defenses >> against knuife attacks, but some of them had the attacker coming at me >> with >> the knife (ice pick grip) held like a slasher in an old 80's b movie. >> After >> a bit (small bit) of training in Kali, both knife and stick...I am sure >> that >> a trained attacker would never do that. > > Well, don't be so sure. The knife portion of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali will > often > use a knife in this fashion. Their view is that the knife we're most > likely > to have on our person is a short blade pocket knife. Given that, they > feel > that the knife in earth/reverse/ice-pick grip is the better way to go. > > Or so I understand... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:16:52 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: sensei in TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We must remember that people use different words and languages for different reasons. We all know that many Korean instructors called their schools Korean Karate because the public knew what karate was, but did not know taekwondo, hapkido, etc. Some people may use the title sensei because they do not know the difference. Both are foreign to them. What about the person who has studied both Japanese and Korean arts? Maybe teaches both? What about a school that has TKD and Judo classes? The instructor has trained under qualified instructors of both and teaches both. But he has students that want to learn both? Do you switch back and forth with languages depending on what class? Do you call the instructor a Japanese title when teaching Judo and a Korean title when teaching TKD? What do you call him off the mat? Does the instructor pick one title/language to make it easier? After all, it is hard enough for many people to learn a foreign language, but two? If you are in America, speaking English, there is the argument that you should speak English and not be speaking Japanese or Korean. There is also the argument that you should use the language and titles of the country of the art's origin to help pass on not only techniques but a little of the culture and language as well. How far do you take this? The only foreign language you use in class is the title of the instructor? Do you teach a few other commands and phrases? Do you conduct the entire class in a foreign language? What about members of the All Japan Taekwondo Association? Do you think the Japanese practitioners of TKD in Japan are using the Korean terms? Most likely, Japanese students call their Japanese TKD instructor Sensei. Just like they call their school teachers Sensei. That is the appropriate title to call a teacher in Japan, regardless of what they are teaching. When I taught in Japan, I was called Sensei. When I taught in Korea I was called Songsangnim. I've also been called Sabomnim. However, when teaching in the U.S. I am not called either, unless I am teaching martial arts, and then I have been called Sensei, Sabomnim, and Sifu depending on who I was teaching and what they were used to calling instructors. Should Korean practitioners of Aikido in Korea be using the term Sensei in Korea? Or should they be speaking their native language and call their instructors by Korean titles? What about Americans who change the meaning of foreign terms? Kwanjangnim actually means school owner. Koreans use this term outside the martial arts as well. The owner of the English school I taught at was called Kwanjangnim by the Korean teachers. However, I've been told by Americans that the term actually means Grandmaster and you can't be called that until you have promoted students to Master who then have promoted people to Black Belt. There is at least one book on Hapkido that shares this same story which is inaccurate according to Koreans who should know how to use their language. (And yes, the author of this book told me in an e-mail that the Korean teachers that I worked with were using the term wrong) The point of all of this is that there are various reasons why people use terms, and foreign terms in particular, and we should not hastily jump to conclusions based on language use. Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix. Hapki, Alain www.burrese.com ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --__--__-- Message: 12 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:15:18 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Art Museum Closes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Newhall Martial Arts Museum Closes Curator i seeking location outside Santa Clarita Valley. By Karen Elowitt Signal Staff Writer http://www.the-signal.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=53260&format=html After only eight months at its Newhall location, the Martial Arts Museum has shuts its doors while curator Michael Matsuda mulls over alternate locations outside the Santa Clarita Valley. Citing dwindling funds and a misunderstanding over funding with the city of Santa Clarita, Matsuda closed the museum on January 31 but plans to reopen nearer to downtown Los Angeles later this year. Though the City Council and other city officials welcomed him with open arms, Matsuda is disappointed that expected funds never panned out. "We met with (City Manager) Ken Pulskamp, and he asked what we needed," Matsuda said. "I said we needed about $40,000 in startup funds to tide us over until other funding came through. That was the end of the conversation." He added that Pulskamp, Bob Kellar, and Laurene Weste were three of the many city officials who initially encouraged Matsuda to locate the museum in the Santa Clarita Valley. However, two weeks later Matsuda said that he got a call from the city's planning and economic development manager Paul Brotzman saying that no funds for the museum were available, and that was the end of it. Instead of the $40,000 he needed, he got the cold shoulder. "City officials didn't return calls or even seem to care," he lamented. "They should have had the courtesy to at least meet with us. "I don't want to make it seem that funds were promised," Matsuda clarified. "But Pulskamp gave us the impression funds were available. That's why we opened in Newhall." City spokeswoman Gail Ortiz said she was unaware of any promised funding, but she emphasized that the city will be sad to see the museum go. "We are disappointed to see Mr. Matsuda make the decision to leave Santa Clarita," Ortiz said. "We did a lot of things to help him open in the last six months. We talked about locations, went on site tours, made introductions, and put him in touch with the place he is currently located." Ortiz added that the City Council does not ordinarily give money to cultural groups such as the museum, but it does encourage them to apply for community grants. Matsuda did in fact apply for such a grant a few months ago, but withdrew his application recently when he made the decision to relocate. He said the museum, which is a 501C3 nonprofit corporation, has been operating on reserve funds while waiting for private grant funds to materialize. Matsuda explained that these funds are already in the pipeline, but it can sometimes take six months to get approval. Not wanting to deplete his reserves while waiting, he instead decided to close up shop. Matsuda feels that the loss of the museum in the Newhall location will be a loss for the cause of culture and diversity in the Santa Clarita Valley, and a loss for the downtown area. "The city wanted something to attract new business," Matsuda said. "During my many talks with the city they kept stressing their goal of finding new ways to attract visitors to Newhall and that's exactly what we did." Many of the museum's visitors were school children from local schools, but Matsuda said he had also had visitors from as far afield as Australia, England, and Italy. "Our goal was to enlighten our kids on how Asian history became part of American history through Asian martial arts," he said. "One way to break down barriers and combat prejudice is to introduce young people to the traditions of different cultures." Though the museum's physical location is currently closed, the business is still a concern and the 450 or so dues-paying members will not be forgotten. "Hopefully we'll move into a new place around April or May," Matsuda said. Alain www.burrese.com ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Something to think about, in a lot of schools, when they teach knife attack defenses it's always the attacker does one movement; a slash, a stab, etc and that's it then they're holding their arm out. But the question is what about their other hand? what is it doing, and what would it be doing on the street and against someone with knife experience? From what I've seen it's used to grab and hold and parry etc. I know guys who aren't in MA but are nice with a knife (real life experience) and they use the free hand to setup the armed hand. Jye Christian Briggs wrote: Interesting question about the knife defense. I have learned a few defenses against knuife attacks, but some of them had the attacker coming at me with the knife (ice pick grip) held like a slasher in an old 80's b movie. After a bit (small bit) of training in Kali, both knife and stick...I am sure that a trained attacker would never do that. It certianly isnt one of the first 5 attack lines anyway. I am fairly certian that I trained person could slice me up unless I had acces to a longer stick...even then maybe. Time to break out the running shoes. -Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jye nigma" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? >I think people are viewing this question in a different light. To me the >question is asking if your training has prepared you for conflict with >another trained person. So, if someone trained in the MA is an attacker and >attacks you, do you think your training has properly prepared you. > > This is not a question of whos "sacks" are bigger. It's really a good > question. We train to defend ourselves which will most likely work against > people who aren't trained in MA, but against someone who is also trained > in MA how will you fare? Think of knife defense you train in for example, > how will it do against someone trained in kali let's say. > > Jye > > > Christian Briggs wrote: > I ask myself this question all of the time. One thought on this > subject...I > find myself not really needing to assert myself, or prove myself > physically > out side of the dojang. I wonder what percentage of other trained people > are out there bullying, attacking or what ever? > > Sometimes when I look at a Master, or someone who is gifted in the martial > arts...I think to myself "kinda of a dorky looking dude...and he can > totally > kick a$$" Brings to mind that old saying about judging books by covers. > > Just a couple of random thoughts while Im trying to get some work done. > > -Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jye nigma" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:45 PM > Subject: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? > > >>I found this question on another group and found it interesting: >> >> "basically asking the question are u prepared to fight an opp who is >> trained? >> Most people expect to be facing an untrained opp; would u be shocked to >> face someone w/legitimate skills? >> >> Secondly have u ever fought someone w/legitimate skills or had a >> confrontation w/someone w/legitimate skills" >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> _______________________________________________ >> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members >> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest