Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:59:01 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #43 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: sensei in TKD (Ray) 2. Sensei / Fighting /Jackson Hapkido U (Wayne Watkins) 3. Re: Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? (Ray) 4. RE: sensei in TKD (J R Hilland) 5. Global Hapkido Conference 2008 (Sinmoo Events) 6. Re: Re: sensei in TKD (steven riggs) 7. International Conference in Jackson (Ray) 8. RE: Re: sensei in TKD (Master Aaron Locke) 9. Re: Racial slur (blueknightpi@att.net) 10. FAI Camp (Martial Arts Seminars) 11. Racial slure? (Gordon Okerstrom) 12. Re: Pakal grip (Beungood8@aol.com) 13. World Junior Taekwondo Chips (The_Dojang) 14. WTF-Kyung Hee University Partnership (The_Dojang) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: sensei in TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:45:11 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Some people may use the title sensei because they do not know the > difference. Both are foreign to them. What about the person who has > studied both Japanese and Korean arts? Maybe teaches both? What about a > school that has TKD and Judo classes? The instructor has trained under > qualified instructors of both and teaches both. But he has students > that want to learn both? Do you switch back and forth with languages > depending on what class? Do you call the instructor a Japanese title > when teaching Judo and a Korean title when teaching TKD? What do you > call him off the mat? Does the instructor pick one title/language to > make it easier? After all, it is hard enough for many people to learn a > foreign language, but two? But you're not learning a language, you're only learning a few new words. Given you don't have to do it on day one, how difficult is that? For those teaching multiple arts you can easily switch from title to title as needed (Sifu, Guro, Sensei, Master), or just use a single title that works for any and all and is not offensive, e.g. Master, Instructor, Mr., Ms. fwiw... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:51:31 -0600 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sensei / Fighting /Jackson Hapkido U Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Out of lurk mode just breifly: If you are planning on comming to the Jackson, MS seminar Feb. 22-24 do yourself and me a big favor. DO NOT address Dr. Kimm as "Sensei" Dr. Kimm being the gentleman that he is would not say anything to you. He will say something to GM West and GM Weste will say something to me so that I will speak to you or your instructor if he/she is there. This is considered by many Koreans as a racial slur and an insult. This is based on the history of the two countries that has been wll documented here and needs no further explanation. Fighting........ There is always someone bigger and badder than you are. The only thing I know for sure is that I would do better in a fight now than if I had no training. Everyone has a plan until they get hit :-) Just to let you folks know the weather down here in Jackson is great. Warm and sunny today. All of you comming down to HapKiDo University be sure and bring your short sleve shirts. Never mind that, we will be glad to sell you on at the seminar!! -- Wayne Watkins --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Are you ready to fight a trained opponent? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:02:53 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Regarding these long threads... Please be sure to edit your posts, esp when the get sooo long. No need to quote the quote of a quote. Just truncate them so that those receiving digests so have to see the same bits over and over and over again. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:24:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: sensei in TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good story, and here I thought the problem was only with those TKD folks! :) JRH www.rrhapkido.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Sinmoo Events To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Global Hapkido Conference 2008 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:57:54 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, Here is the information for the upcoming Global Hapkido Conference being held this summer. For more information check out www.sinmoolegacy.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:42:08 -0800 (PST) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: sensei in TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Alain for sharing some thoughts,facts and perspectives that are much more eloquent than I was able to state. I can understand an instructor born, raised in another country such as a Korean master who grew up and learned his art in Korea would have a very different perspective. It is easy to see that because of the relationships between Japan and Korea going back over 100 years there could easily be great racial and cultural tension. There can be in our country between some blacks and whites and the time frame is even longer. When we are dealing with Americans teaching in America I don't think one should be so quick to take offense or jump on a soapbox. As I said previously, in your school conduct yourself and students as you believe serves them best. I have earned black belts in Korean, Japanese & Chinese arts. I believe I am quite capable of making an intelligent decision about what is in the best interest of my students as I strive to guide them along in their development as martial artists. I have tried to keep an open mind about how best to handle these situations and came across a problem I had never experienced until a couple of years ago. I had a student who earned his chodan from me. He then went several hundred miles away to college. He attended a local Tang Soo Do school where the Master instructor conducted his school in a much more traditional manner including use of grammar and titles than I did. My student felt out of place and early on had some difficulty fitting in and knowing what to do and what not to do. I regarded that experience as a situation that could easily repeat itself as I have several teenagers who if they continue their training will make black belt rank. As a result I have begun including more Korean grammar into our classes. I explain to the classes why we use mostly English but intersperse some Korean grammar as one day they may move on to a school that is also much more traditional in nature than mine. My own instructors handled these issues differently and I would never think of any of them as necessarily right or wrong. I hold each in the highest respect for their willingness to teach me the arts they had mastered through many years of hard work. S.C. Riggs aburrese@aol.com wrote: We must remember that people use different words and languages for different reasons. We all know that many Korean instructors called their schools Korean Karate because the public knew what karate was, but did not know taekwondo, hapkido, etc. Some people may use the title sensei because they do not know the difference. Both are foreign to them. What about the person who has studied both Japanese and Korean arts? Maybe teaches both? What about a school that has TKD and Judo classes? The instructor has trained under qualified instructors of both and teaches both. But he has students that want to learn both? Do you switch back and forth with languages depending on what class? Do you call the instructor a Japanese title when teaching Judo and a Korean title when teaching TKD? What do you call him off the mat? Does the instructor pick one title/language to make it easier? After all, it is hard enough for many people to learn a foreign language, but two? If you are in America, speaking English, there is the argument that you should speak English and not be speaking Japanese or Korean. There is also the argument that you should use the language and titles of the country of the art's origin to help pass on not only techniques but a little of the culture and language as well. How far do you take this? The only foreign language you use in class is the title of the instructor? Do you teach a few other commands and phrases? Do you conduct the entire class in a foreign language? What about members of the All Japan Taekwondo Association? Do you think the Japanese practitioners of TKD in Japan are using the Korean terms? Most likely, Japanese students call their Japanese TKD instructor Sensei. Just like they call their school teachers Sensei. That is the appropriate title to call a teacher in Japan, regardless of what they are teaching. When I taught in Japan, I was called Sensei. When I taught in Korea I was called Songsangnim. I've also been called Sabomnim. However, when teaching in the U.S. I am not called either, unless I am teaching martial arts, and then I have been called Sensei, Sabomnim, and Sifu depending on who I was teaching and what they were used to calling instructors. Should Korean practitioners of Aikido in Korea be using the term Sensei in Korea? Or should they be speaking their native language and call their instructors by Korean titles? What about Americans who change the meaning of foreign terms? Kwanjangnim actually means school owner. Koreans use this term outside the martial arts as well. The owner of the English school I taught at was called Kwanjangnim by the Korean teachers. However, I've been told by Americans that the term actually means Grandmaster and you can't be called that until you have promoted students to Master who then have promoted people to Black Belt. There is at least one book on Hapkido that shares this same story which is inaccurate according to Koreans who should know how to use their language. (And yes, the author of this book told me in an e-mail that the Korean teachers that I worked with were using the term wrong) The point of all of this is that there are various reasons why people use terms, and foreign terms in particular, and we should not hastily jump to conclusions based on language use. Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix. Hapki, Alain www.burrese.com ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 7 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:18:23 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [The_Dojang] International Conference in Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As Wayne mentioned, don't go calling Dr. Kimm names or Master West and his entire crew of mutants will come down on your head... Looking forward to the huge event in Jackson next week. Hapkido Masters from the KHF, the Daehan KiDoHwe and Sin Moo present. Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo Masters from all different organizations. All coming together to learn, share (the pain) and have a great time. See all y'all then. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Master Aaron Locke" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: sensei in TKD Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:29:48 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That is exactly what I do. I use the appropriate title in the appropriate circumstance. I started at white belt in Tang Soo Do many years ago and have earned the rank and the title of Master Instructor. I started training in Okinawan Goju-Ryu years later, but I again started at white belt (I was a 2nd Dan in TSD at the time) and worked my way up to 3rd Dan in Goju and have been given the title Sensei. I teach 2 classes a night, one of TSD and one of Goju. Each uses the appropriate terminology. The only time it is a problem is when I don't change uniforms between classes and it is only a problem for me (changing is how I keep the languages straight in my head). I have been known to bark, "kiotsuke" to the TSD class and "charyet" to the Goju class when I don't change. Each class is entirely distinct and unique. I so far have been able to keep each style as pure as when it was taught to me. Even the students know the difference and know which title is appropriate depending on which style they do. Sensei for Goju, Sabumnim for TSD (to further confuse the point, I am also a Kyosanim in HKD, but I only teach that informally and haven't earn the title Sabumnim). So that no one in the school gets confused, each of my students is only allowed to train in one style. It would be entirely too confusing and completely counter-productive to let them train in both. They would never keep things straight and would lose the history, tradition and etiquette if allowed the cross-training. Those are my two cents. Master Aaron T. Locke Locke's Karate Academy (816) 322-5557 www.pakskarate.com/kansascity -----Original Message----- From: aburrese@aol.com [mailto:aburrese@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:17 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: sensei in TKD We must remember that people use different words and languages for different reasons. We all know that many Korean instructors called their schools Korean Karate because the public knew what karate was, but did not know taekwondo, hapkido, etc. Some people may use the title sensei because they do not know the difference. Both are foreign to them. What about the person who has studied both Japanese and Korean arts? Maybe teaches both? What about a school that has TKD and Judo classes? The instructor has trained under qualified instructors of both and teaches both. But he has students that want to learn both? Do you switch back and forth with languages depending on what class? Do you call the instructor a Japanese title when teaching Judo and a Korean title when teaching TKD? What do you call him off the mat? Does the instructor pick one title/language to make it easier? After all, it is hard enough for many people to learn a foreign language, but two? If you are in America, speaking English, there is the argument that you should speak English and not be speaking Japanese or Korean. There is also the argument that you should use the language and titles of the country of the art's origin to help pass on not only techniques but a little of the culture and language as well. How far do you take this? The only foreign language you use in class is the title of the instructor? Do you teach a few other commands and phrases? Do you conduct the entire class in a foreign language? What about members of the All Japan Taekwondo Association? Do you think the Japanese practitioners of TKD in Japan are using the Korean terms? Most likely, Japanese students call their Japanese TKD instructor Sensei. Just like they call their school teachers Sensei. That is the appropriate title to call a teacher in Japan, regardless of what they are teaching. When I taught in Japan, I was called Sensei. When I taught in Korea I was called Songsangnim. I've also been called Sabomnim. However, when teaching in the U.S. I am not called either, unless I am teaching martial arts, and then I have been called Sensei, Sabomnim, and Sifu depending on who I was teaching and what they were used to calling instructors. Should Korean practitioners of Aikido in Korea be using the term Sensei in Korea? Or should they be speaking their native language and call their instructors by Korean titles? What about Americans who change the meaning of foreign terms? Kwanjangnim actually means school owner. Koreans use this term outside the martial arts as well. The owner of the English school I taught at was called Kwanjangnim by the Korean teachers. However, I've been told by Americans that the term actually means Grandmaster and you can't be called that until you have promoted students to Master who then have promoted people to Black Belt. There is at least one book on Hapkido that shares this same story which is inaccurate according to Koreans who should know how to use their language. (And yes, the author of this book told me in an e-mail that the Korean teachers that I worked with were using the term wrong) The point of all of this is that there are various reasons why people use terms, and foreign terms in particular, and we should not hastily jump to conclusions based on language use. Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix. Hapki, Alain www.burrese.com ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:58:50 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Racial slur Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow. Nice application of Christian beliefs in the "dirty Africans" phrase Crooks are crooks for sure, but this is an extremely distasteful remark. You should apologize immediately for this behavior. Vic Cushing Robert L. Wood I am careful not to confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is Gods business. Michael J. Fox __________________________________________________________________ Do an Internet search for "419 Scam" to learn all about the dirty Africans who sign up for free email accounts to send out spams lying about having millions of dollars to share with you. Discuss martial arts & Christianity at http://www.karateforchrist.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:32:24 -0800 From: "Martial Arts Seminars" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] FAI Camp Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FAI Camp 2008 Need more information? www.family-taekwondo.com Click on Female Athletes Int'l for testimonials, photos, paperwork Female Athletes International Annual Taekwondo Training Camp dedicated to Coaches and Female Athletes 13+ June 7-12, 2008 Head Coach Barb Kunkel, Olympian ph#719-659-9200 Ms. Jan Speights, Camp Coordinator ph#719/321-9369 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:41:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Racial slure? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Did I miss something? What racial slure? --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:46:53 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pakal grip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/14/2008 3:23:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > a bit (small bit) of training in Kali, both knife and stick...I am sure that > a trained attacker would never do that. Well, don't be so sure. The knife portion of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali will often use a knife in this fashion. Their view is that the knife we're most likely to have on our person is a short blade pocket knife. Given that, they feel that the knife in earth/reverse/ice-pick grip is the better way to go. Or so I understand I echo what Ray said, Some of our drills and training is in a pakal grip which is similar to a knife pick grip and is used in several different flow drils in conjunction with your live hand to trap and drag the attacker in and rip into him with this grip blade toward edge in toward arm. we have used it to trap limb while in close. And if there is a second knife on us.. And if the person has a long stick, that is where Pekiti Tirsia would use bridging to get in close and nuetralize the stick advantage. I didn't believe in this until I was the recipient of several really elegant bruises.... **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:02:42 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] World Junior Taekwondo Chips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The 7th WTF World Junior Taekwondo Championships 15 Feb 2008 To: Presidents and Secretaries General,WTF Member National Associations Re: The 7th WTF World Junior Taekwondo Championships. Dear Sir/Madam: Greeting from the World Taekwondo Federation! It is pleasure to extend an invitation to your association to participate in the 7th WTF World Junior Taekwondo Championships to be held in Izmir City, Turkey from May 8-11, 2008. The World Junior Championships was created to develop the sport of Taekwondo and impart its spirit of sportsmanship and virtuous beliefs to the youths of today. For these reasons, we hope that your association will enthusiastically participate in this event. Rest assured that the World Taekwondo Federation and the Organizing committee would do its utmost to ensure the success of the championships. In addition, please be informed that the Organizing Committee will soon send you detailed information about the championships, along with the entry forms and other necessary documents. Thank you for your support for Taekwondo, and we look forward to your continued endeavors in the propagation of Taekwondo. Sincerely yours, Chungwon Choue President --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:00:43 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF-Kyung Hee University Partnership Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF-Kyung Hee University Partnership Taekwondo Training Program 15 Feb 2008 To: Presidents of Member National Associations of the WTF Re: WTF-Kyung Hee University Partnership Taekwondo Training Program for 2008 Dear Sir/Madam: The WTF has been conducting the WTF-University Partnership Taekwondo Training Program in cooperation with International Taekwondo Academy of Kyung Hee University. The program aimed at training athletes and coaches is part of the WTF Taekwondo Solidarity Program to help our Member National Associations promote and develop taekwondo, as well as foster taekwondo hopefuls in their countries. Two courses for athletes and two courses for coaches are held in a year. For the year 2008, there is a change in the length of coaches' course. The length of the course will be four weeks for both athletes and coaches. For this purpose, Member National Associations are requested to recommend taekwondo hopefuls in their countries, in accordance with the conditions of participation and requirements of applicants set forth in the attached outline. Sincerely yours, Jin Suk Yang Secretary General --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest